268 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Abirn wrote...

Flashflame58 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...
The quarians were wrong in their "lololol genocide :D" strategy.

I'm sorry, what?

The quarians tried to systematically exterminate the entire geth.  That is the definition of genocide.  Therefore my shepard is going to side with the geth.

I understand where you are comming from but siding with machines against organics is just not going to happen for me. No matter who's to blame. If peace is impossible I will do my best to help the Quarians.

[DJBare]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

I think Shepard should support whichever side will give more firepower in the fight against the Reapers. That most likely means the Krogan, but I'm not sure about the Geth vs. Quarian numbers. Of course, the Geth are more likely to be susceptible to Reaper control...

You make efforts toward a combined force, all species are under threat from the reapers, it's Shepard job to get them to realize that, and work together, I mean we all know once it's all over they will return to their petty fighting among themselves and politicians returning to their petty bickering, but they only need to be convinced to put that on hold for the immediate threat.

[izmirtheastarach]

Yeah, I don't see why making peace wouldn't leave you with the largest overall force. The Geth fleet is likely enormous. If you were a totally pragmatic Renegade, you might support them just to gain their fleet.

But the Quarian fleet is pretty big too. And making peace likely gives you both fleets.

[fatmancory]

The Geth kill everything, without exception. The without exception part is what basically puts them in the wrong. It isn't just the Heretics that are hostile.

Right, because i few of the geth are bad, the rest must be bad to. Well there gos humanity, they have cerberus, so they must all be bad to. Then again, there are a lot of asari mercenarys, so they to must be wiped out since there all evil.

[AgitatedLemon]

Flashflame58 wrote...

Abirn wrote...

Flashflame58 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...
The quarians were wrong in their "lololol genocide :D" strategy.

I'm sorry, what?

The quarians tried to systematically exterminate the entire geth.  That is the definition of genocide.  Therefore my shepard is going to side with the geth.

Right, I'm aware, I just didn't get the "lololol genocide :D" part. They didn't do it for sh*ts and giggles, they did it out of paranoia. And I'm not vouching for the quarians at all, I think they're both idiots.

They didn't need to attempt to exterminate the geth. The geth were never inherently hostile.

[DJBare]

AlexXIV wrote...
I understand where you are comming from but siding with machines against organics is just not going to happen for me. No matter who's to blame. If peace is impossible I will do my best to help the Quarians.

I think peace will be more than possible, but folk will have to recognize that a discussion between both sides is going to be confusing, mainly because you cannot apply morality to the geth, Shepard has renegade dialogue that legion agrees with and this surprises Tali, it is very wrong for one species to anthromorphize another species, organic or otherwise.

[AlexXIV]

DJBare wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I understand where you are comming from but siding with machines against organics is just not going to happen for me. No matter who's to blame. If peace is impossible I will do my best to help the Quarians.

I think peace will be more than possible, but folk will have to recognize that a discussion between both sides is going to be confusing, mainly because you cannot apply morality to the geth, Shepard has renegade dialogue that legion agrees with and this surprises Tali, it is very wrong for one species to anthromorphize another species, organic or otherwise.

Well since not both sides understand morale, logic will have to do instead since both understand logic. And leading a war that is not necessary has never been logical.

[DJBare]

AgitatedLemon wrote...
They didn't need to attempt to exterminate the geth. The geth were never inherently hostile.

I think it's better to state "The geth are what the quarians made them to be"

[DJBare]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well since not both sides understand morale, logic will have to do instead since both understand logic. And leading a war that is not necessary has never been logical.

And that would be your weakness in debate, you can apply logic to the geth, but you cannot solely apply logic to the quarians because their views are born more out of a passion and a hatred for what the geth did, of course I'm assuming the writers have really thought this one through.

[AlexXIV]

DJBare wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Well since not both sides understand morale, logic will have to do instead since both understand logic. And leading a war that is not necessary has never been logical.

And that would be your weakness in debate, you can apply logic to the geth, but you cannot solely apply logic to the quarians because their views are born more out of a passion and a hatred for what the geth did, of course I'm assuming the writers have really thought this one through.

Well I caught some info on this forum which may or may not be valid information from the leaked script. If it's true then it will be rather easy.

[izmirtheastarach]

All the Geth want is to be left alone. Making peace with them is really not that difficult. It's the Quarians who will take convincing.

[heisman45]

I find it interesting that few people even take into affect that the geth aren't an organic species. I also wanted to point out a similarity between the geth and the Krogan. Going unchecked both can "reproduce" at a dangerous rate.

[Mhorhe83]

Sweawm wrote...

You don't just hear about the Geth
attacking everything within their borders from the Quarians, you hear
that from everybody. Sometimes some miners who are desperete enough to
go into the Veil to harvest resources make it back out alive without
encountering any Geth, but most of the time they are sent back as
Tech-Zombies.

It never specifies who exactely fires first. Would
of the other territories heeded the call to exterminate the Geth? The
Geth probably uncovered this message themselves and set straight out on
exteriminating every organic they could find. What we do know about the
Morning War was that it was brutal (Codex Entities speak of large in
mass Geth Trooper charges, overwhelming any hostile positons with sheer
numbers and no regard for casulties), and that the Geth wiped out
everybody they came across.

Exterminating all organic life?
Makes them sound like the Reapers, but slightly worse in a way with the
fact that they arn't going to do anything useful with our corpses
afterward.

The Geth were the fodder of Mass Effect 1; the drones
that blindly charged into combat and which we mowed down without a
second thought. Sure, there still was a tiny arguement with who's fault
it really was, but seeing Geth brutality on Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria
and the Citadel made them pretty much the undeniable evil. More than
half way into Mass Effect 2, we're expected to think this arguement is
balenced.
You asked Legion for the Geth pospective and you got it;
from their pospective. A machine has very accurate recollection of
events, and the Geth are absloutely correct. Some Quarians started a war
and the Geth finished it; brutally.

Here is one of my own
theroy: The Geth don't and will never take a step backward. In the
Morning War, it would of been incredibly easy for the Geth to simply
back down and steal ships in which they could set course away from
organic systems. Geth don't need Mass Relays to travel through space
because they have all the time in the world. Geth are immortal and were
actually in no overall threat to being wiped out ever.
The Geth
didn't fight back because they were threatend, but because they didn't
want to be slowed down. Really. That's all organics could ever do is
slow them down. In case of Reaper invasion, the Geth could simply bury a
Datacore with a lengthy power supply underground; cut off from the
network and after the Reapers leave the galaxy, they could simply
remerge and take over the entire galaxy for 50'000 years until they have
the chance to slaughter the Reapers the next time they came through the
Citadel Relay. Not even the Reapers could effectivly stop the Geth.
The Geth overall are like angry children really. They hit back and break something, do something stupid and regret it later.

Brilliantly put.

Most people that seem to think that the Geth have the moral high ground, are the victims, etc, don't really seem to put themselves in the Quarians' shoes.

If a drone armed with a nuclear warhead sent back a radio call asking if it has a soul, how not worried would you be? If the robot cleaner that can pull your arms out without breaking a sweat asked you that, how not worried would you be?

Now consider that you'd have such drones at every level of your society, from the military to the kindergardens.
s
People talk of slavery.. quarians were no more slaver than you are right now, slaving away your desktop or laptop.

I'm not saying their reaction was right, far from it. It was, however, understandable.

Now let's take the Geth. Geth are not driven by emotion, but by pure cold logic. Why waste time sheparding (heh) quarian young away from the war, or trying to find a peaceful solution, or simply leaving a place that had zero importance to them when they could.. when they could simply blast through everything the quarians threw at them, and grind them down into dust?

Heretics are the evil ones killing organics on sight, okay, let's say that is so. But, sure as hell there were no heretics around when the Geth massacred the Quarians into a shadow of their former selves.

Unless ME 3 brings some evidence of Sovereign involvement in the Morning War, I'm saying that both races were in the wrong, but that the Geth did the most harm. They had so many means to stop the bloodshed at some point, but instead they just pressed on a total war they had no real need of anymore.

As for the genophage, well.... that's like using Hiroshima to end WW 2, if Hiroshima happened every week.

There is no right answer for the Krogan issue. It's a matter of biology. Sometimes there is no right answer. It's similar to why the Warhammer universe humanity would be impossible to exist under a democracy - without falling to another Age of Strife.

[S Atomeha]

so..
I'd solve the quarian/geth conflict
and if it was up to me.... i'd cure the genophage for the war and reinstate a minor form of it after. and if their good dogs, then lessen the leash or tighten as needed.
or just give them all of batarian territory. that works too. i'm sure they'll be dead anyways.

[ADLegend21]

Tell the quarians the Geth have restored their homeworld and will give it back if they stop attacking the Geth at every turn/undo the Genophage when all Calans unite under Urdnot with Wrex in charge and have Grunt as his successor.

[izmirtheastarach]

When the Quarians discovered the Geth had evolved to the point where they were displaying indications of sentience, they had a choice. Instead of choosing to allow them the Geth to continue evolving, they tried to kill them.

When you talk to people like Admiral Xen, they seem to be completely unwilling to accept or admit that the Geth actually evolved. She thinks they simply malfunctioned. The Quarians of that era may have felt the same.

Ignorance though, is no excuse. The Quarians made the first move. As Tali said, they have paid enough for it, to be sure. But it was still their mistakes the precipitated the whole conflict. Both in creating the Geth to operate the way they did, and in trying to kill them.

[DJBare]

heisman45 wrote...

I find it interesting that few people even take into affect that the geth aren't an organic species.

I can probably see your point with the Krogan, might not agree but I get it, but I don't quite get your point with the geth, they are sapient regardless of their construction.

[heisman45]

Mhorhe83 wrote...

Sweawm wrote...

You don't just hear about the Geth
attacking everything within their borders from the Quarians, you hear
that from everybody. Sometimes some miners who are desperete enough to
go into the Veil to harvest resources make it back out alive without
encountering any Geth, but most of the time they are sent back as
Tech-Zombies.

It never specifies who exactely fires first. Would
of the other territories heeded the call to exterminate the Geth? The
Geth probably uncovered this message themselves and set straight out on
exteriminating every organic they could find. What we do know about the
Morning War was that it was brutal (Codex Entities speak of large in
mass Geth Trooper charges, overwhelming any hostile positons with sheer
numbers and no regard for casulties), and that the Geth wiped out
everybody they came across.

Exterminating all organic life?
Makes them sound like the Reapers, but slightly worse in a way with the
fact that they arn't going to do anything useful with our corpses
afterward.

The Geth were the fodder of Mass Effect 1; the drones
that blindly charged into combat and which we mowed down without a
second thought. Sure, there still was a tiny arguement with who's fault
it really was, but seeing Geth brutality on Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria
and the Citadel made them pretty much the undeniable evil. More than
half way into Mass Effect 2, we're expected to think this arguement is
balenced.
You asked Legion for the Geth pospective and you got it;
from their pospective. A machine has very accurate recollection of
events, and the Geth are absloutely correct. Some Quarians started a war
and the Geth finished it; brutally.

Here is one of my own
theroy: The Geth don't and will never take a step backward. In the
Morning War, it would of been incredibly easy for the Geth to simply
back down and steal ships in which they could set course away from
organic systems. Geth don't need Mass Relays to travel through space
because they have all the time in the world. Geth are immortal and were
actually in no overall threat to being wiped out ever.
The Geth
didn't fight back because they were threatend, but because they didn't
want to be slowed down. Really. That's all organics could ever do is
slow them down. In case of Reaper invasion, the Geth could simply bury a
Datacore with a lengthy power supply underground; cut off from the
network and after the Reapers leave the galaxy, they could simply
remerge and take over the entire galaxy for 50'000 years until they have
the chance to slaughter the Reapers the next time they came through the
Citadel Relay. Not even the Reapers could effectivly stop the Geth.
The Geth overall are like angry children really. They hit back and break something, do something stupid and regret it later.

Brilliantly put.

Most people that seem to think that the Geth have the moral high ground, are the victims, etc, don't really seem to put themselves in the Quarians' shoes.

If a drone armed with a nuclear warhead sent back a radio call asking if it has a soul, how not worried would you be? If the robot cleaner that can pull your arms out without breaking a sweat asked you that, how not worried would you be?

Now consider that you'd have such drones at every level of your society, from the military to the kindergardens.
s
People talk of slavery.. quarians were no more slaver than you are right now, slaving away your desktop or laptop.

I'm not saying their reaction was right, far from it. It was, however, understandable.

Now let's take the Geth. Geth are not driven by emotion, but by pure cold logic. Why waste time sheparding (heh) quarian young away from the war, or trying to find a peaceful solution, or simply leaving a place that had zero importance to them when they could.. when they could simply blast through everything the quarians threw at them, and grind them down into dust?

Heretics are the evil ones killing organics on sight, okay, let's say that is so. But, sure as hell there were no heretics around when the Geth massacred the Quarians into a shadow of their former selves.

Unless ME 3 brings some evidence of Sovereign involvement in the Morning War, I'm saying that both races were in the wrong, but that the Geth did the most harm. They had so many means to stop the bloodshed at some point, but instead they just pressed on a total war they had no real need of anymore.

As for the genophage, well.... that's like using Hiroshima to end WW 2, if Hiroshima happened every week.

There is no right answer for the Krogan issue. It's a matter of biology. Sometimes there is no right answer. It's similar to why the Warhammer universe humanity would be impossible to exist under a democracy - without falling to another Age of Strife.

Well no when they realized the Geth had evovled they were only afraid because they knew the geth wouldn't peacefully be slaves. They never even considered just freeing the Geth from slavery.

[izmirtheastarach]

heisman45 wrote...

Well no when they realized the Geth had evovled they were only afraid because they knew the geth wouldn't peacefully be slaves. They never even considered just freeing the Geth from slavery.

Or maybe some did. We have no way of knowing. In the modern era, there are varying opinions among Quarians. There may well have been then as well. Mostly we see the issues through Tali's own biased perspective.

[Sweawm]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Sweawm wrote...

It was never clearly defined whether the Geth on Aite or the Alarei were Heretics, and the Geth on Haestrom were defintely from the Heretic Collective seeing that Legion couldn't simply communicate with them to cease attacking. Though, I wonder why the True Geth never intervened when the Heretics were blasting apart Haestrom in an attempt to kill the Quarians and later Shepard's team. The fact that they simply really are that bothered, or wouldn't risk war with the Heretics anyway?

And no: there is no such thing as being uninvited in Council Space. At worse; you would be arrested, not destroyed.

The Geth found in both place had to be Hereitics. Neither Cerberus nor Tali went beyond the Perseus veil to obtain specimens, and any Geth on our side of it were Heretics. That seems like simple logic to me.

Why the Geth wouldn't intervene I assume, is because they thought they would be attacked by the Quarians. How would they be able to tell the difference between True Geth and Heritics. They are not even aware that the Heretics exist.

To the last part, I meant if an uncontacted race entered Turian or Salarian space. That did happen, and the result was the First Contact War.

To start with the third point, the Geth perfectly know who is entering their space and know everything there is to know about the Council species. They destroyed them anyway, even if their intent was just to seek resources that the Geth were defintely hording beyond the Veil.

Cerberus never went beyond the Veil (Possibly, who the hell knows what the Illusive Man is up to? From the looks of Mass Effect 3, he's got an entire army on Rannoch simply for the lols), Tali certainly did when they went to Haestrom. Seeing that Haestrom is a Geth world, apart of the Collective; it makes perfect sense for the Geth to be aware of what was happening there, and have their own forces on site.

Plus, your big mistake in what you stated was that the Geth don't know the Heretics exsist. THEY PERFECTLY KNOW THE HERETICS ARE OUT THERE and working with the Reapers. Soverign approached the Geth Collective, seeking allies. We know that by will, at least five percent of the Geth joined with the Reapers. The Collective didn't make any attempt to stop these rouge Geth, nor did they warn the rest of the galaxy about the Reapers. That was at least two hundered years before ME1, and the Geth couldn't even go out of the way to at least warn Council Space that the Heretics were in league with a mechanical god aspiring to wipe the galaxy clean of all organic life.
Yep.

The only time the Geth actually went out of their way to warn someone about the Reapers was when the Heretics themselves became a threat to the True Collective. When the Reapers finally turned their attention to bringing all Geth under heel, THEN they decided it was time to do something about it.

[Painaid]

 I don't think the Krogan/Salarian debate is at tense as the Quarian/Geth one. So I'm much more confident that the Salarians will understand the need for a genophage cure. Especially if someone like Wrex is in control who can steer the Korgans down a different path from the past.

As for the Quarian/Geth one, I'm hoping for a peaceful resolution, but I will side with the Quarians if I must. I find them the most fascinating alien civilization in Mass Effect. They don't offer the numbers that other civs do, but they are the absolute most resourceful in the galaxy by far. If any race is going to find a weakness to combatting the reapers, it will be the technological prowess of the Quarians.

I also think Quarians offer the strongest force to combat the Reapers by. They have the largest fleet and with those huge liveships having guns attached to them...that is going to equal devastating power. So Quarians are kind of the wildcard. They're shunned by the council races, are treated horribly for centuries but I think it'll be them coming to save some Asari and Turian *** in the end. 

IMO though, I foresee the Geth and Quarians coming to terms and finally becoming steadfast friends/allies. Judging my Legion's words, the real Geth hold immense respect for their makers. So I think they will aid them.

Modifié par Painaid, 19 février 2012 - 01:46 .

[DJBare]

heisman45 wrote...
Well no when they realized the Geth had evovled they were only afraid because they knew the geth wouldn't peacefully be slaves. They never even considered just freeing the Geth from slavery.

Very much this, I've gotten the impression throughout the story that some geth still want to serve, but not in the way most people think of it, in our world we have people who want to serve, consider the soldier that wants to serve their country.

[izmirtheastarach]

Sweawm wrote...


To start with the third point, the Geth perfectly know who is entering their space and know everything there is to know about the Council species. They destroyed them anyway, even if their intent was just to seek resources that the Geth were defintely hording beyond the Veil.

Cerberus never went beyond the Veil (Possibly, who the hell knows what the Illusive Man is up to? From the looks of Mass Effect 3, he's got an entire army on Rannoch simply for the lols), Tali certainly did when they went to Haestrom. Seeing that Haestrom is a Geth world, apart of the Collective; it makes perfect sense for the Geth to be aware of what was happening there, and have their own forces on site.

Plus, your big mistake in what you stated was that the Geth don't know the Heretics exsist. THEY PERFECTLY KNOW THE HERETICS ARE OUT THERE and working with the Reapers. Soverign approached the Geth Collective, seeking allies. We know that by will, at least five percent of the Geth joined with the Reapers. The Collective didn't make any attempt to stop these rouge Geth, nor did they warn the rest of the galaxy about the Reapers. That was at least two hundered years before ME1, and the Geth couldn't even go out of the way to at least warn Council Space that the Heretics were in league with a mechanical god aspiring to wipe the galaxy clean of all organic life.
Yep.

The only time the Geth actually went out of their way to warn someone about the Reapers was when the Heretics themselves became a threat to the True Collective. When the Reapers finally turned their attention to bringing all Geth under heel, THEN they decided it was time to do something about it.

It's debatable whether Haestrom is a world controlled by the true Geth. If you have some specifics in the lore somewhere that confirm that, please do point me to them, that doesn't mean it's not now controlled by the Heretics.

I was not saying that the Geth didn't know the Heretics existed. You misundertood me there. I was saying the Quarians didn't.

And I'm not sure where that last part comes from. From what Legion says, it almost sounds like he was sent out simply because the Geth found Shepard interesting. The goal of his original mission is not to destroy the Heritics. Remember that he has been tracking Shepard for the better part of two years. The virus is a later development.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 19 février 2012 - 01:49 .

[Sweawm]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Sweawm wrote...


To start with the third point, the Geth perfectly know who is entering their space and know everything there is to know about the Council species. They destroyed them anyway, even if their intent was just to seek resources that the Geth were defintely hording beyond the Veil.

Cerberus never went beyond the Veil (Possibly, who the hell knows what the Illusive Man is up to? From the looks of Mass Effect 3, he's got an entire army on Rannoch simply for the lols), Tali certainly did when they went to Haestrom. Seeing that Haestrom is a Geth world, apart of the Collective; it makes perfect sense for the Geth to be aware of what was happening there, and have their own forces on site.

Plus, your big mistake in what you stated was that the Geth don't know the Heretics exsist. THEY PERFECTLY KNOW THE HERETICS ARE OUT THERE and working with the Reapers. Soverign approached the Geth Collective, seeking allies. We know that by will, at least five percent of the Geth joined with the Reapers. The Collective didn't make any attempt to stop these rouge Geth, nor did they warn the rest of the galaxy about the Reapers. That was at least two hundered years before ME1, and the Geth couldn't even go out of the way to at least warn Council Space that the Heretics were in league with a mechanical god aspiring to wipe the galaxy clean of all organic life.
Yep.

The only time the Geth actually went out of their way to warn someone about the Reapers was when the Heretics themselves became a threat to the True Collective. When the Reapers finally turned their attention to bringing all Geth under heel, THEN they decided it was time to do something about it.

It's debatable whether Haestrom is a world controlled by the true Geth. If you have some specifics in the lore somewhere that confirm that, please do point me to them, that doesn't mean it's not now controlled by the Heretics.

I was not saying that the Geth didn't know the Heretics existed. You misundertood me there. I was saying the Quarians didn't.

And I'm not sure where that last part comes from. From what Legion says, it almost sounds like he was sent out simply because the Geth found Shepard interesting. The goal of his original mission is not to destroy the Heritics. Remember that he has been tracking Shepard for the better part of two years. The virus is a later development.

Yep, that makes it even worse. They only sent out Legion because they found Shepard slightly intresting, not that the Reapers were about to storm into the galaxy and wipe everyone out. Not because the Heretics were planning to enslave all Geth kind to the Reaper's will. Fantastic...

Oh, and Haestrom is beyond the Veil and most defintely a world under True Geth control. If the Heretics held territory within the Veil, wouldn't it make sense to base themselves beyond its immensly protective barrier and not in a Space Station floating just BEYOND the Veil?
Plus, Haestrom is basically nextdoor to a massive Geth hub world; and is visited by patrol fleets of Geth ships. I think it may just be a part of the greater Geth Collective.

[sunnydxmen]

Tali a Quarian im pretty sure she attack shepard to save her species if he choose geth. like wrex attacking shepard an me1.