Aller au contenu

Photo

Your opinion on the Geth v. Quarian debate/Genophage debate


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
268 réponses à ce sujet

#151
Gibb_Shepard

Gibb_Shepard
  • Members
  • 3 694 messages

fatmancory wrote...


The Geth kill everything, without exception. The without exception part is what basically puts them in the wrong. It isn't just the Heretics that are hostile.


Right, because i few of the geth are bad, the rest must be bad to. Well there gos humanity, they have cerberus, so they must all be bad to. Then again, there are a lot of asari mercenarys, so they to must be wiped out since there all evil.


They're not people genius, there is no humanity. They're all interlinked, every decision they make is a consensus. If a few are acting a certain way, you can bet the rest are doing the exact same thing (With the exception of the heretics).

#152
AgitatedLemon

AgitatedLemon
  • Members
  • 6 294 messages

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

fatmancory wrote...


The Geth kill everything, without exception. The without exception part is what basically puts them in the wrong. It isn't just the Heretics that are hostile.


Right, because i few of the geth are bad, the rest must be bad to. Well there gos humanity, they have cerberus, so they must all be bad to. Then again, there are a lot of asari mercenarys, so they to must be wiped out since there all evil.


They're not people genius, there is no humanity. They're all interlinked, every decision they make is a consensus. If a few are acting a certain way, you can bet the rest are doing the exact same thing (With the exception of the heretics).


That last bit renders your entire statement moot.

The heretics are the ones killing people. And no, the geth don't always "know" what the other faction is doing, as evidenced by Legion being surprised to find out the heretics had spy programs in the non-heretic databanks.

Legion itself says that you've never ran into a non-heretic geth prior to meeting him.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 19 février 2012 - 02:36 .


#153
Gibb_Shepard

Gibb_Shepard
  • Members
  • 3 694 messages

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

fatmancory wrote...


The Geth kill everything, without exception. The without exception part is what basically puts them in the wrong. It isn't just the Heretics that are hostile.


Right, because i few of the geth are bad, the rest must be bad to. Well there gos humanity, they have cerberus, so they must all be bad to. Then again, there are a lot of asari mercenarys, so they to must be wiped out since there all evil.


They're not people genius, there is no humanity. They're all interlinked, every decision they make is a consensus. If a few are acting a certain way, you can bet the rest are doing the exact same thing (With the exception of the heretics).


That last bit renders your entire statement moot.

The heretics are the ones killing people. And no, the geth don't always "know" what the other faction is doing, as evidenced by Legion being surprised to find out the heretics had spy programs in the non-heretic databanks.

Legion itself says that you've never ran into a non-heretic geth prior to meeting him.


No, it doesn't, because we're talking about the Quarian genocide. The heretics weren't around back then.

Read.

#154
izmirtheastarach

izmirtheastarach
  • Members
  • 5 298 messages

Sweawm wrote...



Oh, and Haestrom is beyond the Veil and most defintely a world under True Geth control. If the Heretics held territory within the Veil, wouldn't it make sense to base themselves beyond its immensly protective barrier and not in a Space Station floating just BEYOND the Veil?
Plus, Haestrom is basically nextdoor to a massive Geth hub world; and is visited by patrol fleets of Geth ships. I think it may just be a part of the greater Geth Collective.


There is a flaw here, but it may not be yours really. It may be a flaw in the a game. Most people, when playing aquire Tali on Haestrom before they run into Legion. So when Legion tells you that you have never before encountered a True Geth, I took that to mean that the Geth on Haestrom were Heritics.

Since the game is somewhat non-linear, that canon is debatable, but it seems that it's the most likely one.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 19 février 2012 - 02:43 .


#155
AgitatedLemon

AgitatedLemon
  • Members
  • 6 294 messages

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

No, it doesn't, because we're talking about the Quarian genocide. The heretics weren't around back then.

Read.


That changes nothing. The quarians were the ones heavily implied to have made the first strike, and the quarians stayed in the fight to the point of near extinction. At this point, I can sympathize with them, but they're just playing the victim card for pity now.

#156
Gibb_Shepard

Gibb_Shepard
  • Members
  • 3 694 messages
That wasn't my point. I don't care about what the quarians did or did not do. The guy i was replying to was saying because "some" Geth killed every Quarian, irrelevant of age or danger, that not all should be blamed. But all Geth would've done the exact same thing, they all would've killed children and non-combatants given the chance. They don't think individually, one wouldn't have felt sympathetic and merciful without any of the others feeling the same way.

#157
fatmancory

fatmancory
  • Members
  • 570 messages

Gibb_Shepard wrote...



That wasn't my point. I don't care about what the
quarians did or did not do. The guy i was replying to was saying because
"some" Geth killed every Quarian, irrelevant of age or danger, that
not all should be blamed. But all Geth would've done the exact same thing, they
all would've killed children and non-combatants given the chance. They don't
think individually, one wouldn't have felt sympathetic and merciful without any
of the others feeling the same way.




yes, they did try to kill everyone, but they were
at war. They were attacked first. Its really quit simple, if there were a group
of people that were trying to kill you, but a few disagreed, but did not openly
show it, what would your response be? It is true that the geth have a hive
mind, but they are more individual than you would think, after all, 5% did
leave with sovereign, this shows that different geth can come to a different conclusion.
While it may not be as drastic as organic life, geth do varies more than a
first glance would show.





though thinking about it, the diffrence in mindset may come from sovereigns influnce, though there is no proof of that yet.

#158
frylock23

frylock23
  • Members
  • 3 037 messages
The simple fact of the matter is that not all cultures are created equal. Did the krogan deserve what the Council allowed to happen to them? Maybe not, but at the same time, culturally speaking, the krogan were a vicious, war-like race with a culture that was the same. Then, you had to factor in their rate of reproduction. Most times, a belligerent people will make waruntil it is no longer profitable or wise for them to do so. They'll eventually quit and sue for peace when they face their own extinction. Given the reality of krogan reproduction, that was never going to happen. So, the Council had to find another way. The Salarian genophage wasn't nice, but it did allow for krogan survival. I'm guessing that none of the Council's other options did unless you count allowing themselves to be completely annihilated by the krogan in the end.

While I favor allowing the krogan to eventually gain the cure, I'd want to see a substantial cultural shift first. Given the hard reality of ME3, that won't be possible. We'll just have to trust that Wrex's reforms will take root. Otherwise, Shep might simply be saving the galaxy from one threat to be leaving it to another. After all, the fertile krogan will be able to rebuild their population faster than the other races.

As for the Quarian and the Geth, that's more complicated.

#159
Nektos

Nektos
  • Members
  • 63 messages
 The Quarians need to get over themselves and realize that the Geth have no quarrel with them now. If they do not realize this my Renegade Shepard will set them straight on the manner.

If the Krogan could stop mindlessly boning maybe the genophage could be removed, but other than that the genophage is a necessary measure. 

Modifié par Nektos, 19 février 2012 - 03:54 .


#160
Slayer299

Slayer299
  • Members
  • 3 193 messages
Krogan - I'm not curing the Genophage just because of some silly notion the Krogan are a pack of fluffy bunnies who won't go back to their old ways once they get the Genophage lifted Wrex or not. Wrex has done a lot but uniting Tuchanka under him hasn't happened and taking chances with the Krogan like that is just uncommonly stupid IMO.

Quarian/Geth - I'd like a peaceful resolution to their conflict, but barring that I'll come down on the Quarians side without blink of hesitation.

#161
Oldbones2

Oldbones2
  • Members
  • 1 820 messages
The Quarians broke council law, enslaved sentients, attempted genocide and then they paid for it. Heavily. I'll probably side with the Quarians, I don't like their bull**** attitude, but I don't know that I can trust the Geth.

As for the Genophage... that should be a whole different discussion, and I have no idea what I'll do. Genophage was wrong both times it was used. But sometimes the wrong choice is the only choice left... very sad.

#162
Kaiser Arian XVII

Kaiser Arian XVII
  • Members
  • 17 283 messages
In dictionary of nerds:

Genocide: 1. the same in other dictionaries
2. Wiping out the movable computers, VIs and AIs

#163
The_Monk_Key

The_Monk_Key
  • Members
  • 21 messages
I think many people on BSN aren't thinking about the Geth vs. Quarian issue clearly. It is too easy to just say "Oh the Quarians just enslaved the Geth and attempted genocide when the Geth discovered they were slaves". No if you think about it, every one of us would do the same thing and feel the same way as the Quarians if we were put into their shoes. Consider this...

The Geth were never designed to be sentient slaves. They were simply machines to help make work/everyday life easier. To relate to this one simply need to consider the use of personal computers. We use the computer everyday to do everything from browse web, enjoy entertainment to controlling machinery and monitoring different industrial processes.  However when you think about the relationship between humans and computers, you would never consider it to be one of “humans forcing their slave computers to do work for them”. 

Now imagine if one day you discovered that your computer can turn on by itself, perform actions without instructions and be aware of the surrounding. Your first reaction would never be  “oh it is becoming a sentient species, I should give my computer rights and freedoms”. No you would unplug the computer first as a precaution then try to find out what happened. While doing that, you would never consider whether what you are doing is genocide because to you it is a simple case of your machine doing things it should not be doing.

This is why the Quarians wanted to destroy the Geth after they have became aware. It is not a issue of knowingly wanting to eradicate the species that used to be slaves but now wanted freedom. It is about stopping the possibility that the machines they have used to improve their lives will act in unpredictable, uncontrollable, and dangerous ways that can threaten the Quarian’s survival. If the US military drones, armed to the teeth, stopped responding to commands you bet no one will cry genocide when the military decides to destroy it.

Modifié par The_Monk_Key, 19 février 2012 - 05:21 .


#164
izmirtheastarach

izmirtheastarach
  • Members
  • 5 298 messages
As I said before, being ignorant of their sentience doesn't grant the Quarians the moral high ground.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 19 février 2012 - 05:22 .


#165
The_Monk_Key

The_Monk_Key
  • Members
  • 21 messages

izmirtheastarach wrote...

As I said before, being ignorant of their sentience doesn't grant you the moral high ground.


The Geth were not sentient when they were designed and created. I doubt anyone was ignorant of it when the Geth acquired sentience eventually either.

#166
izmirtheastarach

izmirtheastarach
  • Members
  • 5 298 messages

The_Monk_Key wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

As I said before, being ignorant of their sentience doesn't grant you the moral high ground.


The Geth were not sentient when they were designed and created. I doubt anyone was ignorant of it when the Geth acquired sentience eventually either.


They designed them is such a way that they could not help but become more intelligent as they became more numerous. The entire process is fraught with hubris. When they gained sentience is when the Quarians started killing them. As Admiral Korris says in ME2, they were our children and we wronged them.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 19 février 2012 - 05:27 .


#167
Medhia Nox

Medhia Nox
  • Members
  • 5 066 messages
I battled the Geth throughout all of ME 1 - they were entirely hostile. Legion does not change my mind - and his ambivalent attitude toward re-writing or destroying the Heretic Geth only serves to underscore the fact that the Geth don't even regard their own existence with my reverence.

That being said... I would not pursue the Geth inside of the Perseus Vale and the Geth would remain a Quarian problem with regaining their planet something they need to solve (once the planet was regained however - as the Council I would not allow them to retake the Quarian homeworld or any world they were expunged from) 

As for the Krogan - breeding capable females would not be allowed off Tuchanka and Krogan colonies would be strictly prohibited. Krogan immigration would also be strictly prohibited and populations of male Krogan (and not breeding females) would be kept to a strict number. But yes - I would cure the genophage.

I would also put harsh laws against both AI and Uplifting.

Harsh as in... obtaining and destroying all research or actions performed in these areas. The next race the salarians decide to uplift to their own aims would find them removed from the Council... and EDI would be obtained and destroyed and Cerberus would be held as a criminal organization for this alone.

That's how my Shepard would attempt to push things if he had any ability to shape the ME universe.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 février 2012 - 05:34 .


#168
The_Monk_Key

The_Monk_Key
  • Members
  • 21 messages

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The_Monk_Key wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

As I said before, being ignorant of their sentience doesn't grant you the moral high ground.


The Geth were not sentient when they were designed and created. I doubt anyone was ignorant of it when the Geth acquired sentience eventually either.


They designed them is such a way that they could not help but become more intelligent as they became more numerous. The entire process is fraught with hubris. When they gained sentience is when the Quarians started killing them. As Admiral Korris says in ME2, they were our children and we wronged them.


No they were designed in such way that "multiple platforms...sharing resources, were often more effective." as quoted from Legion. Quarians tried to deactivate them when they realized the Geth were no longer following their commands and being simple machines. It is akin to someone turning off their computer when it performs tasks without being instructed.

Just so you know I supported Korris' push for peace in ME2 and intend to solve the Quarian vs. Geth issue peacefully in ME3. I am just sick of seeing people post "oh yeah Quarians forced the Geth into slavery, then tried to kill them all so they deserve to die in ME3".

#169
heisman45

heisman45
  • Members
  • 66 messages

Medhia Nox wrote...

I battled the Geth throughout all of ME 1 - they were entirely hostile. Legion does not change my mind - and his ambivalent attitude toward re-writing or destroying the Heretic Geth only serves to underscore the fact that the Geth don't even regard their own existence with my reverence.

That being said... I would not pursue the Geth outside of the Perseus Vale and the Geth would remain a Quarian problem with regaining their planet something they need to solve (once the planet was regained however - as the Council I would not allow them to retake the Quarian homeworld or any world they were expunged from) 

As for the Krogan - breeding capable females would not be allowed off Tuchanka and Krogan colonies would be strictly prohibited. Krogan immigration would also be strictly prohibited and populations of male Krogan (and not breeding females) would be kept to a strict number. But yes - I would cure the genophage.

I would also put harsh laws against both AI and Uplifting.

Harsh as in... obtaining and destroying all research or actions performed in these areas. The next race the salarians decide to uplift to their own aims would find them removed from the Council... and EDI would be obtained and destroyed and Cerberus would be held as a criminal organization for this alone.

That's how my Shepard would attempt to push things if he had any ability to shape the ME universe.


It's easy to say you would put all these laws in place to control the Krogan but if you multiplied the amount of Krogan now by 1000 they would be virtually impossible to control. 

#170
Unpleasant Implications

Unpleasant Implications
  • Members
  • 1 044 messages
Geth v. Quarian: The Quarians made their bed, now they must lie in it. They could've allowed the Geth to reach true understanding and become a military force for the Quarians out of gratitude to the creators. OR they could've gotten off ofr their lazy hindquarters and done things themselves and let the Geth be. But they didn't, and they lost their homeworld because of it.

Genophage: Should it be completely cured? Hellllllllllllllll no. Should it be modified for a future that won't result in their extinction? Yes

#171
izmirtheastarach

izmirtheastarach
  • Members
  • 5 298 messages

The_Monk_Key wrote...

No they were designed in such way that "multiple platforms...sharing resources, were often more effective." as quoted from Legion. Quarians tried to deactivate them when they realized the Geth were no longer following their commands and being simple machines. It is akin to someone turning off their computer when it performs tasks without being instructed.

Just so you know I supported Korris' push for peace in ME2 and intend to solve the Quarian vs. Geth issue peacefully in ME3. I am just sick of seeing people post "oh yeah Quarians forced the Geth into slavery, then tried to kill them all so they deserve to die in ME3".


Ah, well then I will leave the argument there, as I'm certainly not one of those people. I intend to save every race I can and add them too my massive army.

#172
GuardianAngel470

GuardianAngel470
  • Members
  • 4 922 messages
This whole quarian/geth debate going on is seriously irrelevant. War makes strange bedfellows and it would be seriously stupid to kill off a potential ally in the galaxy's largest and most stacked war for survival.

Sure we can debate who we would side with AFTER the reaper war based on all this moral discussion of xenocide and hatred but it doesn't really matter what either side has done at this point because every gun hand is necessary.

Look at it this way; Soviet Russia was pretty freaking messed up. Stalin killed more people than Hitler ever did but the Allies still allied themselves with him out of necessity. A war on two fronts was critical to stopping Nazi Germany.

Afterwards we had the Cold War with them sure but at least WWII was over. The sheer scale of that conflict cannot be understated and dealing with Soviet Russia after it was a relatively small price to pay.

All I'm saying is that you don't kill off potential allies, even if they are abhorent. If you already have no idea how it could ever be possible to win then you need all the help you can get.

#173
izmirtheastarach

izmirtheastarach
  • Members
  • 5 298 messages
Can't argue with that either. I said before a Pragmatic Renegade might side with the Geth just to get access to their fleet. You could also decide to save everyone just to make sure you could then throw them all at the Reapers.

#174
MakeMineMako

MakeMineMako
  • Members
  • 1 289 messages
Both the Geth and Quarians made mistakes in the Morning War. And now is the time to find a peaceful resolution to the whole thing. In my view, that is the only way.

The Krogan, despite being overly warlike and fatalistic, have shown signs that there is hope for them yet. I'm willing to give them that second chance in my game.

And while they are not the topic of this thread, I'm willing to give the Rachni (I saved the Queen in ME1) and surviving Batarians a fair shake.

All of the races in Mass Effect need to stand together if there is any chance of taking the fight to the Reapers.

#175
Sweawm

Sweawm
  • Members
  • 1 098 messages

The_Monk_Key wrote...

I think many people on BSN aren't thinking about the Geth vs. Quarian issue clearly. It is too easy to just say "Oh the Quarians just enslaved the Geth and attempted genocide when the Geth discovered they were slaves". No if you think about it, every one of us would do the same thing and feel the same way as the Quarians if we were put into their shoes. Consider this...

The Geth were never designed to be sentient slaves. They were simply machines to help make work/everyday life easier. To relate to this one simply need to consider the use of personal computers. We use the computer everyday to do everything from browse web, enjoy entertainment to controlling machinery and monitoring different industrial processes.  However when you think about the relationship between humans and computers, you would never consider it to be one of “humans forcing their slave computers to do work for them”. 

Now imagine if one day you discovered that your computer can turn on by itself, perform actions without instructions and be aware of the surrounding. Your first reaction would never be  “oh it is becoming a sentient species, I should give my computer rights and freedoms”. No you would unplug the computer first as a precaution then try to find out what happened. While doing that, you would never consider whether what you are doing is genocide because to you it is a simple case of your machine doing things it should not be doing.

This is why the Quarians wanted to destroy the Geth after they have became aware. It is not a issue of knowingly wanting to eradicate the species that used to be slaves but now wanted freedom. It is about stopping the possibility that the machines they have used to improve their lives will act in unpredictable, uncontrollable, and dangerous ways that can threaten the Quarian’s survival. If the US military drones, armed to the teeth, stopped responding to commands you bet no one will cry genocide when the military decides to destroy it.


A perfect explanation. Of course you would attempt to destroy it, or at least dismantle it back down to the point it was no longer aware again.

The Geth really don't ever hold their own existance in high regard, so why should others who do pay for that?

In regard to what people like 'Unpleasent Implications' say: why should the descendents of those who were wronged be punished? Those Quarians who lived in the Morning War era arn't still alive, but those Geth most likely are (Or have been cleared out simply for the purpose of freeing up space for more advanced Geth programs, or they were rewritten), and still continue to exist.
If it had to come to a who was most in the wrong choice in Mass Effect 3, with no real implications on my galatic ready level, I would choose the Quarians.

The Geth attacked everyone for an attack from only a number of them. For the lack of a better example, it would be like attacking all of Europe for the crimes of one country. The Quarians were right to fight against the Geth; they were right to be afraid of the Geth's nature as it has proved itself very, very dangerous. The Migrant Fleet has all the right reasons to hate the Geth, and all the reason to fight them.
The Geth on the other hand, are simply sitting around and not knowing what to do with themselves. The Geth never attempted diplomacy, and only offered it when an easy option to speak through a repersentive (Shepard) came along.

I would rather favour a people who have been himilated, ashamed and have lived in poverty for three centuries for crimes they never comitted than a bunch of robots who simply slaughter, feel nothing and don't even value their own existance to begin with.
I rate the right to surive by value of existance. Millions of souls who will suffer in death and feel so much pain each day, or some sythnetic life form that dosn't feel a thing and simply dosn't have any value of life to begin with?

Screw my very delicate approach to neutrality: unless the Geth openly offer to repay for THEIR mistakes, I would simply wipe them out. No Heretics to deal with later. B)