268 réponses à ce sujet

[izmirtheastarach]

Seems like making peace lets the Geth pay for their mistakes by throwing their giant fleet against the Reapers.

[Sweawm]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Seems like making peace lets the Geth pay for their mistakes by throwing their giant fleet against the Reapers.

I still don't think that's enough. Quite a majority is aligned with the Reapers to begin with now...

[izmirtheastarach]

Sweawm wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Seems like making peace lets the Geth pay for their mistakes by throwing their giant fleet against the Reapers.

I still don't think that's enough. Quite a majority is aligned with the Reapers to begin with now...

How do you figure that? Keeping in mind that spoilers are not allowed in this section of the forums.

[Homebound]

Quarians need to make peace with the Geth.
--It's really just the Quarians unwillingness to compromise that is perpetuating this war. The Geth don't even want to keep fighting but they do out of their desire to keep existing.

The Krogan Genophage should be cured.
--But there definitely still needs to be a way for the Krogan population to be regulated.

[Sweawm]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Sweawm wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Seems like making peace lets the Geth pay for their mistakes by throwing their giant fleet against the Reapers.

I still don't think that's enough. Quite a majority is aligned with the Reapers to begin with now...

How do you figure that? Keeping in mind that spoilers are not allowed in this section of the forums.

No spoilers, I just figure that Spitfires wouldn't be needed if all the Geth wanted to play nice with each other.

Mass manufacturing anti-Geth weaponery by Geth? Sounds like a massive Civil War to me, especially since the Reaper's actual arrival and utter decimation of the rest of the galaxy will defintely kick up defections to the Heretic cause (We know that the original Heretics defected to the Reapers out of free will. As the eventuality of Reaper victory reaches its peak, there will defintely be many, many more willing to join the Reapers to survive)

Come on, there will be more Heretics in Mass Effect 3 regardless of what choices you made previous. The fact that there are Geth who would happily wipe out the Quarians and every other life form out there if a more superior being ordered them to proves that the challenge of peace just isn't a Quarian problem.

[izmirtheastarach]

How exactly is talking about that weapon not a spoiler? You literally just spoiled me, in fact.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 19 février 2012 - 07:44 .

[BlueMagitek]

Eh, treating killing Geth like murder or the attempted destruction of all Geth like genocide is wrong; you're treating them like organics. Legion tells you not to do this. =D

Anyway, I side with the Quarians on this on; if your program is acting strangely, you try to find the problem and fix it, you don't just let it keep running and hope for the best.

[izmirtheastarach]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Eh, treating killing Geth like murder or the attempted destruction of all Geth like genocide is wrong; you're treating them like organics. Legion tells you not to do this. =D

Anyway, I side with the Quarians on this on; if your program is acting strangely, you try to find the problem and fix it, you don't just let it keep running and hope for the best.

Killing one Geth likely isn't really a murder, as you're just destroying a mobile platfornm. Killing all Geth is definitely genocide, though.

[Sweawm]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

How exactly is talking about that weapon not a spoiler? You literally just spoiled me, in fact.

Not much a spoiler. Its in the damned released Codex. 

[DJBare]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Anyway, I side with the Quarians on this on; if your program is acting strangely, you try to find the problem and fix it, you don't just let it keep running and hope for the best.

The quarians were aware the geth were becoming sapient, their answer was to shut them all down, that's an attack from the point of view of any sabient species, remember that geth were also created for the military, it's no use creating military geth without programming them to survive, it would be too costly.

Modifié par DJBare, 19 février 2012 - 07:56 .

[AgitatedLemon]

On the whole "Is it genocide?" debate...

Killing 1 platform... no. I wouldn't really call it murder either. individual geth are dumber than rocks.

If we're talking about killing something the size of those databanks in Legion's LM, then I could call it mass murder, since there are thousands upon thousands of geth hooked up at one time.

[izmirtheastarach]

Sweawm wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

How exactly is talking about that weapon not a spoiler? You literally just spoiled me, in fact.

Not much a spoiler. Its in the damned released Codex. 

The codex hasn't been released. I have personally listened to most of it by extracting the audio files from the demo, but that's certainly a spoiler in general discussion. I've listened to almost all the audio myself, but I wouldn't discuss specifics here, because those are definitely spoilers.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 19 février 2012 - 08:00 .

[BlueMagitek]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

On the whole "Is it genocide?" debate...

Killing 1 platform... no. I wouldn't really call it murder either. individual geth are dumber than rocks.

If we're talking about killing something the size of those databanks in Legion's LM, then I could call it mass murder, since there are thousands upon thousands of geth hooked up at one time.

It isn't murder at all, nor is it mass murder; unless you consider a Shepard who rewrote the heretics as a mass murderer as well.  They're programs, programs that were, as it turned out, deeply embedded in Quarian lifestyle.  The Geth would not be shut down forever; their code would be looked at and altered; rebuilding such a necessary thing would be more than inconvenient.

DJBare wrote...
The quarians were aware the
geth were becoming sapient, their answer was to shut them all down,
that's an attack from the point of view of any sabient species, remember
that geth were also created for the military, it's no use creating
military geth without programming them to survive, it would be too
costly.

Geth aren't a species. They're a program, or series of programs.  When your programs aren't running right, you figure out what went wrong and then you fix them.  Like I said, the Geth were important to Quarian lifestyle, so it's unlikely that they'd be dumped into the Recyle Bin; altered, losing their sentience, but they would still be "alive".

[DJBare]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Geth aren't a species. They're a program, or series of programs.  When your programs aren't running right, you figure out what went wrong and then you fix them.  Like I said, the Geth were important to Quarian lifestyle, so it's unlikely that they'd be dumped into the Recyle Bin; altered, losing their sentience, but they would still be "alive".

So what you are saying is that abstract behavior is an error?, you do realise that humans fall into that category right?, when someone or something starts to question their reason for being and asking things like "do I have a soul"; that's somewhat more than an error.

[Mhorhe83]

I find it mystifying that everyone is lamenting the "genocide of the Geth", while few if any are sparing a thought to the genocide BY the Geth.

Fighting their creators for survival, sure.

Fighting a total war for that, though?

Massacring Quarians by tens of millions, probably billions for that?

What's the Geth excuse in slaughtering Quarian young?

What other rationalization can you find for that, other than the fact the Geth went for the throat and decided to wipeout their creators completely. How are the Geth victims here, seriously?

[AgitatedLemon]

BlueMagitek wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

On the whole "Is it genocide?" debate...

Killing 1 platform... no. I wouldn't really call it murder either. individual geth are dumber than rocks.

If we're talking about killing something the size of those databanks in Legion's LM, then I could call it mass murder, since there are thousands upon thousands of geth hooked up at one time.

It isn't murder at all, nor is it mass murder; unless you consider a Shepard who rewrote the heretics as a mass murderer as well.  They're programs, programs that were, as it turned out, deeply embedded in Quarian lifestyle.  The Geth would not be shut down forever; their code would be looked at and altered; rebuilding such a necessary thing would be more than inconvenient.

Huh? Rewriting them isn't murder because they still exist. Shepard isn't killing them off by rewriting them.

[Sweawm]

Mhorhe83 wrote...

I find it mystifying that everyone is lamenting the "genocide of the Geth", while few if any are sparing a thought to the genocide BY the Geth.

Fighting their creators for survival, sure.

Fighting a total war for that, though?

Massacring Quarians by tens of millions, probably billions for that?

What's the Geth excuse in slaughtering Quarian young?

What other rationalization can you find for that, other than the fact the Geth went for the throat and decided to wipeout their creators completely. How are the Geth victims here, seriously?

This is the logic most people leave out of the equation. Those people are Legion fans.

[Nashiktal]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

On the whole "Is it genocide?" debate...

Killing 1 platform... no. I wouldn't really call it murder either. individual geth are dumber than rocks.

If we're talking about killing something the size of those databanks in Legion's LM, then I could call it mass murder, since there are thousands upon thousands of geth hooked up at one time.

It isn't murder at all, nor is it mass murder; unless you consider a Shepard who rewrote the heretics as a mass murderer as well.  They're programs, programs that were, as it turned out, deeply embedded in Quarian lifestyle.  The Geth would not be shut down forever; their code would be looked at and altered; rebuilding such a necessary thing would be more than inconvenient.

Huh? Rewriting them isn't murder because they still exist. Shepard isn't killing them off by rewriting them.

Rewriting them changes who they are, they lose the perspective that made them unique. (and perspecive is a very important part of the geths belief system.) It is not conventional murder as you would find defined in a dictionary, but shep committed genocide of an entire culture and people. 

They don't still "exist", as the heretics (or at least most of them) are gone, they are now geth.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 19 février 2012 - 09:58 .

[Exia001]

Well, anyone with a Brain can see the Genophage was wrong, not because of the actual thing, but because the Krogan were used and then got rid of like unwanted children and that isn't fair so my Canon Shep would be pro Krogan.

I hate Tali and her fanboys with rage, unless she is useful in the latter of the game, she will die. To me you cannot compare the gap in awesomeness between Tali (Who sucks) and Legion (Who rules) My Canon Shep is Pro Geth

[DJBare]

Nashiktal wrote...
Rewriting them changes who they are, they lose the perspective that made them unique. (and perspecive is a very important part of the geths belief system.) It is not conventional murder as you would find defined in a dictionary, but shep committed genocide of an entire culture and people. 

They don't still "exist", as the heretics (or at least most of them) are gone, they are now geth.

The heretics are akin to people who follow extreme cults, Soveriegn saw their worship as an insult but used it, now I don't know about you, but destroying people who follow extreme cults would not be my first choice.

[Nashiktal]

DJBare wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...
Rewriting them changes who they are, they lose the perspective that made them unique. (and perspecive is a very important part of the geths belief system.) It is not conventional murder as you would find defined in a dictionary, but shep committed genocide of an entire culture and people. 

They don't still "exist", as the heretics (or at least most of them) are gone, they are now geth.

The heretics are akin to people who follow extreme cults, Soveriegn saw their worship as an insult but used it, now I don't know about you, but destroying people who follow extreme cults would not be my first choice.

The morality of the matter is irrelevent, but the geth hold personal choice and perspective as scripture. (or as holy as one can be as beings of data and logic.) Legion was conflicted about the entire situation on his loyalty mission due to his people's culture. He has no problems with the outcome in the sense that the heretics made their choice, but he mourns the loss of their unique perspective.

There is no question that the heretics needed to be dealt with, but its still genocide. Shep seems to do a lot of that lately.

[Adanu]

The geth are not sentient. They give the appearance of being sentient via very advanced VI use. They are, however, very intelligent and perceptive and self aware.

It'd be like called Skynet from terminator sentient because it became self aware.

[Nashiktal]

Exia001 wrote...

Well, anyone with a Brain can see the Genophage was wrong, not because of the actual thing, but because the Krogan were used and then got rid of like unwanted children and that isn't fair so my Canon Shep would be pro Krogan.

I hate Tali and her fanboys with rage, unless she is useful in the latter of the game, she will die. To me you cannot compare the gap in awesomeness between Tali (Who sucks) and Legion (Who rules) My Canon Shep is Pro Geth

The got rid of part happened when the krogan overstepped their authority. The krogan took many planets freely given as gratitude for their service, ruined them, and then started taking planets belonging to the other species by force.

The council responded with war, and could not defeat the krogan due to their rapid population explosion even with the turians joining the fray. As there was no other option (at least none as clean and efficient) the genophage was used.

It was irresponsible of the salarians to uplift the krogan, but the krogan brought the genophage on themselves. Like most things in the ME series, its not a black and white issue.

[DJBare]

Adanu wrote...

The geth are not sentient. They give the appearance of being sentient via very advanced VI use. They are, however, very intelligent and perceptive and self aware.

It'd be like called Skynet from terminator sentient because it became self aware.

How would you describe Commander Data from Star Trek TNG.

[Mhorhe83]

Sweawm wrote...

Mhorhe83 wrote...

I find it mystifying that everyone is lamenting the "genocide of the Geth", while few if any are sparing a thought to the genocide BY the Geth.

Fighting their creators for survival, sure.

Fighting a total war for that, though?

Massacring Quarians by tens of millions, probably billions for that?

What's the Geth excuse in slaughtering Quarian young?

What other rationalization can you find for that, other than the fact the Geth went for the throat and decided to wipeout their creators completely. How are the Geth victims here, seriously?

This is the logic most people leave out of the equation. Those people are Legion fans.

Hehe, true dat 

Although I personally liked Legion as a character and found his (its?) insight into the Geth interesting, on the whole I consider the Geth to be a threat nigh on as big as the Reapers. Not that immediate, maybe, but the potential in the long run is... off the scale. Everyone NOT soiling their pants at the Geth behind the Veil quite clearly isn't thinking things through.