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[jabajack]

Sweawm wrote...

Mhorhe83 wrote...

I find it mystifying that everyone is lamenting the "genocide of the Geth", while few if any are sparing a thought to the genocide BY the Geth.

Fighting their creators for survival, sure.

Fighting a total war for that, though?

Massacring Quarians by tens of millions, probably billions for that?

What's the Geth excuse in slaughtering Quarian young?

What other rationalization can you find for that, other than the fact the Geth went for the throat and decided to wipeout their creators completely. How are the Geth victims here, seriously?

This is the logic most people leave out of the equation. Those people are Legion fans.

Yup i don't agree with the geth killing the young but they are machines, they saw small organics that will become future soldiers, they thought in cold cold logic.

[Gonder]

In ME3, i'll be putting emotions or feelings occasionally over just wanting to win the war. Some people say they'd side with the Geth because they would pose a dominant force, and that's probably true (Or may not be) but it's fun to explore your Shep's feelings, or what he would choose if it was him in the situation.

Since my Shep romanced Tali, he'd most likely fight for her race over betraying it for the Geth. He likes Legion as a whole, though is still weary about the Geth after killing hundreds of them, Heretics or not. But he'd fight for the Quarians over the Geth any day.

As for the genophage, i want to cure them for the sake of their race and that the genophage was wrong, though what if they did go into another overpopulation war with the other species? The upside and the downside of this choice is very significant, but i would still roll with curing their race over just leaving them as they are.

[Mhorhe83]

jabajack wrote...

Yup i don't agree with the geth killing the young but they are machines, they saw small organics that will become future soldiers, they thought in cold cold logic.

But that's the whole point. Simply because they're machines, it becomes even more inexcusable.

The quarians might have panicked, or simply made a morally wrong decision for fear. It doesn't excuse them, far from it, but you can understand the emotions behind it.

While the Geth.. the Geth weren't driven by emotion. They aren't a Frankenstein that has a love/hate relationship with its maker, because they don't love or hate. They compute. They achieve consensus. And from what we know, their capabilities - even at their beginnings - are prodigious.

They could have forced many other outcomes for the Morning War. They didn't. They chose genocide, against any and all Quarians, because it was the easiest and most beneficial choice. They weren't SCARED into it, they weren't driven by emotion, they just chose the Final Solution and rolled with it.

If anything, that makes the Geth scarier than any other race in the ME universe baring the Reapers.

[Medhia Nox]

IF we were told that the Geth attacked military installations... and then, after subduing the population of Quarians... oppressed them for a while (simply for time) - then built ships and left.

Then "maybe" I could see some argument why the Geth could be reasoned with...

But no - we're told that they massacred an entire planet (for us that would be upward of 7.2 billion people) - and the Quarians escaped... they were not exiled.

There are only approx. 17 million Quarians left.... and "untold" billions were killed in the Morning War.

Of COURSE the Geth get to re-write history... they're the victors - and most people fall for it hook - line - and sinker - simply because they like Legion.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 février 2012 - 02:19 .

[Unpleasant Implications]

Sweawm wrote...

In regard to what people like 'Unpleasent Implications' say:

 Hey! That's my name!

why should the descendents of those who were wronged be punished? Those Quarians who lived in the Morning War era arn't still alive, but those Geth most likely are (Or have been cleared out simply for the purpose of freeing up space for more advanced Geth programs, or they were rewritten), and still continue to exist.
If it had to come to a who was most in the wrong choice in Mass Effect 3, with no real implications on my galatic ready level, I would choose the Quarians.

They should be punished because they haven't learned a damn thing. Going to war with the Geth has been shown to be a horribly foolish choice when they actually had the numbers to spare. Now that they don't, they still wish for war. Pointless, futile waste of life.

[Aaleel]

I don't really have a strong stance either way on the Geth/Quarian conflict. They both have a lot of blame in what happened. The Quarians threw the first punch tried to commit genocide on the Geth, and didn't like the punch the Geth threw back. But the Geth committing genocide is no better.

The Genophage all my Shepards are against regardless renegade/Paragon, or whatever kind of Shep I'm playing. If the calculate it out 999,000/1,000,000 babies would be stillborn, or miscarried. Let a mother carry a kid/kids to term and then murder them 999/1000 times. I tell Mordin what I think of it as often as I can, call him a murderer and whatever else the dialogue lets me.

[Justicar]

Well it shows that the quarians never learned from their mistakes. war with the Geth?

5% of the Geth (granted, along with Sovereign and saren) nearly destroyed the Citadel.

I'm sure the other 95% would decimate the Quarians. In fact, I think the Geth are the strongest force in Mass Effects Galaxy, even stronger than the Turians.

[fatmancory]

Medhia Nox wrote...


IF we were told that the Geth attacked military installations... and then, after subduing the population of Quarians... oppressed them for a while (simply for time) - then built ships and left.

Then "maybe" I could see some argument why the Geth could be reasoned with...

But no - we're told that they massacred an entire planet (for us that would be upward of 7.2 billion people) - and the Quarians escaped... they were not exiled.

There are only approx. 17 million Quarians left.... and "untold" billions were killed in the Morning War.

Of COURSE the Geth get to re-write history... they're the victors - and most people fall for it hook - line - and sinker - simply because they like Legion.

All debate aside, i find it unlikly the geth would rewrite history, they care little for that and more about the facts. In a sense, the geth are the most trust worthy speacies to exist. Though they are still very dangrous.

I fail to see why people could call the genophage the wrong choice though, sure it was bad, but is extincion better? Saying its murer Is  very depatable, hell that one comes down to if you think abortions are ok or not.

[JShepard1992]

In my own opinion with the Quarian/Geth conflict i think they should come up with a compromise like either they can work together so they can live in the same place in peace or help the Quarians find a new homeworld and the Genophage need to be cured.

[fatmancory]

JShepard1992 wrote...

In my own opinion with the Quarian/Geth conflict i think they should come up with a compromise like either they can work together so they can live in the same place in peace or help the Quarians find a new homeworld and the Genophage need to be cured.

it should'nt be to hard, deppending on your choiches in ME2. The geth pretty much just keep the homeworld in working order, it would'nt be surprising if they were doing it for a bargining peice.

[Medhia Nox]

@fatmancory: About as unlikely as they would in re-writing a whole group of their own people?

The Geth understand the logical value of determining "fact" - if they state to organics that they had no fault... and that what they did was necessary - and provide even the most rudimentary reasons why... organics are bound to listen.

Look at the American Revolutionary War... it was fought to gain freedom from oppression - followed by oppression and continued genocide. Yet - that's not how America tells it - and its citizens (of which I am one) only concentrate on the noble underdog aspect of the Revolution.

There is nothing emotional based on re-writing history - it's not to make themselves feel better - it is, in essence, a form of base diplomacy. And from these boards - it works wonders.

====

As for the genophage - it was one more error to cover up the original error - which was uplifting the Krogan in the first place.

We "told" that the Rachni were unstoppable - but it's equally as likely (since the writers did not prepare this all in advance) that it was simply an easier way of dealing with the Rachni issue. After all - why use Turian, Asari, or Salarian soldiers - when a primitive upjumped species will do?

Of course - then it bit them in the ass... and the "noble" and "good" thing was to develop the genophage. No... I don't buy it.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 février 2012 - 04:19 .

[Eradyn]

If another species came along and began wiping out human beings, and their intent was the complete destruction of our species (our extinction), you bet total war against the aggressors would be a perfectly agreeable response. This is the purposeful extermination of one's species, after all. You don't half-ass your response with some token resistance. You "fight or you die." Judging from some of the responses here, I'm wondering if some of you would also balk at the idea of "total war" against the reapers.

Modifié par Eradyn, 19 février 2012 - 04:23 .

[heisman45]

Eradyn wrote...

If another species came along and began wiping out human beings, and their intent was the complete destruction of our species (our extinction), you bet total war against the aggressors would be a perfectly agreeable response. This is the purposeful extermination of one's species, after all. You don't half-ass your response with some token resistance. You "fight or you die." Judging from some of the responses here, I'm wondering if some of you would also balk at the idea of "total war" against the reapers.

Thats a good point why wouldn't you try to wipe out the quarians as long as they were still fighting back. It's not like the geth chased them once they fled either Geth wanted to survive. (not even freely just survive) Quarians wanted them dead.

[fatmancory]

@medhia nox
the geth that were re purposed will still have their memory. It changes their opinion, but the facts of what happens will still remain.

Commenting on the genophage i agree with you, We shouldn't of upliffted them at that point, and the genophage was just a cover up for their mistakes, it was necessary, but it shouldn't of come to that in the first place. 

Edit: this is really ilrelivent, but turins didnt exist at that point, it was just the asiri and the salariens.

Modifié par fatmancory, 19 février 2012 - 04:31 .

[Eradyn]

fatmancory wrote...

@medhia nox
the geth that were re purposed will still have their memory. It changes their opinion, but the facts of what happens will still remain.

Commenting on the genophage i agree with you, We shouldn't of upliffted them at that point, and the genophage was just a cover up for their mistakes, it was necessary, but it shouldn't of come to that in the first place. 

Edit: this is really ilrelivent, but turins didnt exist at that point, it was just the asiri and the salariens.

Well, turians existed and were busy expanding their own galactic empire...they just hadn't been discovered by the then-citadel species.

[ODST 3]

I look at the initial release of the genophage like the use of nuclear weapons on Japan in WWII. On one hand, an atrocity that affected millions of innocents.... but at the same time, the best option for those who did it. I think the genophage was the right decision initially, in order to avoid prolonging a costly war. Many turians and humans would have died and the Krogan could have been driven extinct. As much as I admire the rational outliers of the Krogan, namely Wrex, I still don't trust the entire race. If Wrex succeeds in unifying them under the Urdnot banner, altering their culture so that they will not insist on conquering and killing, then let's get that genophage cured!

Mass Effect 2 gave me a completely new outlook on the geth. Seeing them when they aren't pawns of Saren proves they're no worse than any other race. Still, being that they are inorganics, their emotions are not on the level of a warm-blooded, thinking creature and I'd have to side with the quarians if it came down to it.

[Medhia Nox]

@fatmancory: Mea culpa on the Turian addition... I know the basics of the history, but the details I screw up on occasionally.

Fact largely depends on perspective... from "God's" perspective - there's only one immutable truth. However - to a man, "fact" can be many things... is it a "fact" that your family holds any relevance in the world? Is it a fact that your child is somehow imbued with some importance that makes him/her more relevant than any other child? No - in "fact" - my child is no more important than any other... except, to my perspective.

I am convinced the Geth have studied how to manipulate organics. Legion's whole criticism about Sovereign and the Reapers gives a minor indication of it. He states that organics - for whatever reason - seem to deify things they fear.. etc. etc.

Now that they have been thrust into the galactic theater... it would behoove the Geth to paint a better picture of themselves... alter the "facts" as it were - in their favor.

So I think there is some indication that the Geth understand how to manipulate the perspective of organics... with "facts". *shrugs* I guess we'll see when ME 3 comes out if it ever proves relevant to the story.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 février 2012 - 04:39 .

[Ultermarto]

 In ME3, my sole mission will be trying to get peace between the Quarians and the Geth. The Quarians did not create sapient beings on purpose, but their trying to destroy them was entirely mislead and against my central ethics. However, they need their damn planet back, so they can live like enqualiad beings once more, as is only acceptable. A Qualia has a right to senseation, to reception. The only way they can do that is with their planet.

Genophage had me really scratching my head. Not as much as the 'A House Divided' aporia, but still a great deal. In the end, I kept the genophage data in case I'd ever need it. What Mordin's assistant said about the 'cultural rennaisance' got to me also. The Krogan are sapient before they are violent. They have the capacity to choose their own nature, their own society, that much is indisputible. Who knows? Perhaps the most insulting part of the genophage was its indication thet the Krogan were not trusted as anything more that soldiers; tools.

This is what I like about ME. It has so much philosophy going for it.

[Medhia Nox]

What sucks... is that the Reapers exist in the ME universe at all.

The Salarian/Krogan... Quarian/Geth... Human/Batarian... Volus complaining about being blocked from a Council seat... Rachni vs. Everyone - Aria and Omega - etc. etc. These are issues that are so much more interesting. Even Cerberus would fit better in a universe without the Reapers...

Hopefully - ME 4 will having nothing to do with Shepard, or Reapers, or Protheans .

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 février 2012 - 04:45 .

[fatmancory]

Medhia Nox wrote...

What sucks... is that the Reapers exist in the ME universe at all.

The Salarian/Krogan... Quarian/Geth... Human/Batarian... Volus complaining about being blocked from a Council seat... Rachni vs. Everyone - Aria and Omega - etc. etc. These are issues that are so much more interesting. Even Cerberus would fit better in a universe without the Reapers...

Hopefully - ME 4 will having nothing to do with Shepard, or Reapers, or Protheans .

The little details do make good stories, but arnt as "epic" i guess. The other problems only affect a small amount of the univers at once, and only a small fragment of time at that.

[Ultermarto]

Medhia Nox wrote...

What sucks... is that the Reapers exist in the ME universe at all.

The Salarian/Krogan... Quarian/Geth... Human/Batarian... Volus complaining about being blocked from a Council seat... Rachni vs. Everyone - Aria and Omega - etc. etc. These are issues that are so much more interesting. Even Cerberus would fit better in a universe without the Reapers...

Hopefully - ME 4 will having nothing to do with Shepard, or Reapers, or Protheans .

I kinda agree. Not to sound pretensious, but it almost seems like they've got all these interesting and challenging plots worked into the universe, and then they've felt the need to add a typical "Those are the bad guys, go kill them" story, for peple who won't get it. The Reaper story, vital as it is, almost blocks out the rest of the game sometimes. It removes my own influence over the game when Bioware assume that I'm frustrated with the Council (which I'm not), or that the Reapers are my primary concern (which they aren't).

[BlueMagitek]

DJBare wrote...

So what you are saying is that abstract behavior is an error?, you do realise that humans fall into that category right?, when someone or something starts to question their reason for being and asking things like "do I have a soul"; that's somewhat more than an error.

If I am wrote a program to, I don't know, translate everything I write into Mandarin, and it suddenly starts turning Mandarin characters into ancient Sumerian glyphs, that means I am going to need to see what went wrong and fix it; typically this would involve turning off the program and rewriting some of the source code.  The Quarians were going to do the same thing; the Geth were not meant to be rudimentary AI, but a VI that made Quarian lives easier; when they start displaying completely off signs, well, something has clearly gone as unintended, and it needs to be looked at.

That's all Geth are, lines of code.

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Huh? Rewriting them isn't murder because they still exist. Shepard isn't killing them off by rewriting them.

You're turning them into completely different beings, though.  Unless of course, free will doesn't matter for the Geth.

Which would make you a bit of a hypocrite, if you consider killing them to be bad but rewriting them ok. >.>

[fatmancory]

BlueMagitek wrote...

DJBare wrote...

So what you are saying is that abstract behavior is an error?, you do realise that humans fall into that category right?, when someone or something starts to question their reason for being and asking things like "do I have a soul"; that's somewhat more than an error.

If I am wrote a program to, I don't know, translate everything I write into Mandarin, and it suddenly starts turning Mandarin characters into ancient Sumerian glyphs, that means I am going to need to see what went wrong and fix it; typically this would involve turning off the program and rewriting some of the source code.  The Quarians were going to do the same thing; the Geth were not meant to be rudimentary AI, but a VI that made Quarian lives easier; when they start displaying completely off signs, well, something has clearly gone as unintended, and it needs to be looked at.

That's all Geth are, lines of code.

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Huh? Rewriting them isn't murder because they still exist. Shepard isn't killing them off by rewriting them.

You're turning them into completely different beings, though.  Unless of course, free will doesn't matter for the Geth.

Which would make you a bit of a hypocrite, if you consider killing them to be bad but rewriting them ok. >.>

and all humans are strands of dna. Think about, the most basic life forms are just viruses, which are pretty much like simple programs, as the evolve, their "program" gets more and more complex.

if the geth were simple programs, mabey you'de have a point, but their are far from simple.

[MoltenRock]

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

[quote]DJBare wrote...

So what you are saying is that abstract behavior is an error?, you do realise that humans fall into that category right?, when someone or something starts to question their reason for being and asking things like "do I have a soul"; that's somewhat more than an error.
[/quote]

If I am wrote a program to, I don't know, translate everything I write into Mandarin, and it suddenly starts turning Mandarin characters into ancient Sumerian glyphs, that means I am going to need to see what went wrong and fix it; typically this would involve turning off the program and rewriting some of the source code.  The Quarians were going to do the same thing; the Geth were not meant to be rudimentary AI, but a VI that made Quarian lives easier; when they start displaying completely off signs, well, something has clearly gone as unintended, and it needs to be looked at.

[/quote]

Note that the geth as they right now are sentient beings, capable of making rational decisions and possibly capeable of emotions as indicated by the way legion sometimes acts. That they weren't sentient before is irrelevant now. If the evolution theory by Charles Darwin is correct we weren't either a long time ago.

[quote]
That's all Geth are, lines of code.
[/quote]

You would decide the right to exist based solely on what one is made of? I.E. Organic material with instincts is good, synthethic with programming code bad? That is far too close to the racism we have here on earth to my liking.
[/quote]

Modifié par MoltenRock, 19 février 2012 - 05:05 .

[Medhia Nox]

@fatmancory: Humans are irrational beings - in a universe that promotes biological irrationalism - they work "perfectly" within their environment.

The Geth are logic engines occupying the same universe - you "could" state that they're part of inorganic rationalism since the laws of nature (that would be the higher aspects of nature - gravity, electromagnetism, greater/lesser nuclear energy - etc) are immutable.

Humans can imitate "logic" - you see it all over these boards. They admire logic... but are far removed from being capable of performing logic on any consistent basis (the discussion on "facts" being a huge aspect of that actually).

Geth might one day be able to imitate irrational behavior (let's call it emotion since that's its manifestation) - but they can't even do that - nor, does it seem as if they are capable of imagination which would make them incapable of innovation, invention or discovery.

Anyway - all this is to say - that logic is the deficient background noise of the universe. It the great galactic props department - but without the actors, nobody is going to come see the show.

The Geth are so unlike us - that attempting to think of them in organic terms is, again, utterly irrational.

Note: Legion admits this when he basically says: "Do what you will with the Heretic Geth." He doesn't plead for their lives... or feel even the slightest bit conflicted.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 février 2012 - 05:09 .