131 réponses à ce sujet

[Flagta]

javierabegazo wrote...



It's most certainly preference at this point

Likely, though they ruined the last game. Maybe everything will change with this year. 

[Oblivious]

NICKjnp wrote...

The original ME was a great game. If they would have kept the writing at the same level in ME 2 as they did in the first game then I would be more inclined to agree. The problem is that the story seems to have been sacrificed for gameplay AND the lore keeps changing over and over again to the point that it doesn't even feel like the ME universe from the first game.
And the immediate praise of Hale and underhanded put down of Meer shows how biased the writer is.

So? I never understand why people get on an author's case for having an opinion. The author obviously prefers Hale, so do alot of ME fans and for good reason. While I agree that the statement bordered on unprofessional there is the fact that the author did tie it in to the context of article rather well. I prefer Pie or Cake and Pizza or Pumpkin. Does that make me biased? Sure. Is that a bad thing? Not unless you're addicted to cake or pumpkin pie.

[wizardryforever]

People think the article is poorly written?  What were you expecting, a dissertation with footnotes and tons of overly flowerly language?  I thought it flowed well for an article published on the internet, especially for an opinion piece.  You don't have to agree with anything the writer says to judge how well they got their point across.

Anyway, I thought it was very poignant, and since I've seen/read most of the franchises referenced, I get most of the comparisons.  I agree with most of it, though I rather thought the writer could have omitted the assumption that we'll play as FemShep.  Also, sexuality is not very well explored at all.  You can have a straight relationship with any of nine characters, and one amibiguously lesbian case.  Other than that, there's very little evidence that homosexual people exist at all.  You don't have to make the main character homosexual to portray homosexuality well.  But then again, we see very little of NPC relationships either, so meh.

There also needs to be more emphasis on the words "our generation."  Putting aside for the moment that the writer is generalizing with the word "our," the article likely has it correct on that regard.  If we go back the last 15 years (about how long we normally characterize a generation), can you honestly say there is anything that really compares to the scope of Mass Effect?  Remakes don't count either, since they are essentially rehashing something that came out much earlier.  I can't think of any.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Yeah, I can agree with the author. I'm not a science-fiction big consumer (yet), and he obviously knows more of the subject than I. Mass Effect was the science fiction universe I most enjoyed and an obvious part of it was its game nature. Making me be part of the narrative flow certainly helped.

[JonathonPR]

Is science is science? Is science is magic? What was possible in one generation because of another? What does it inspire and what is created because of it? What concepts are explored and how are they defined? What will it be remembered for in twenty years time?

The first trap is to not define what you like as good, nor what you dislike as bad. Its like food. Because you like a food does not make it good for you.

The second trap that is close to first is that generic is not bad and unique is not good. It is the understanding of a things potential and how it can be best expressed in its environment. Like trees in a forest or a B movie that knows it is going to be a B movie.

The third trap is created by your own argument. Just because an argument is illogical does not mean that it has not somehow come to reveal truth. Equally an argument that is completely logical does not inherently contain the truth. Fallacy of fallacy and fallacy of logic.

[mjharper]

Oblivious wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

The original ME was a great game. If they would have kept the writing at the same level in ME 2 as they did in the first game then I would be more inclined to agree. The problem is that the story seems to have been sacrificed for gameplay AND the lore keeps changing over and over again to the point that it doesn't even feel like the ME universe from the first game.
And the immediate praise of Hale and underhanded put down of Meer shows how biased the writer is.

So? I never understand why people get on an author's case for having an opinion. The author obviously prefers Hale, so do alot of ME fans and for good reason. While I agree that the statement bordered on unprofessional there is the fact that the author did tie it in to the context of article rather well. I prefer Pie or Cake and Pizza or Pumpkin. Does that make me biased? Sure. Is that a bad thing? Not unless you're addicted to cake or pumpkin pie.

The reason for 'getting on the author's case' here is because he doesn't treat it like an opinion.

- He states an opinion (Hale is a better actor)
- He generalises agreement ("is widely considered superior")
- He 'deduces' a conclusion (Mass Effect is important because Shepard is such a strong femal character)
- He goes on to state that this character is able to choose her sexual orientation

This is all rubbish. I personally agree that Hale is better (I've only played manshep once, and it was a real struggle to get through ME1). But clearly many (if not most) people disagree that Hale is a better.

Basically, attempting to prove that Shepard is a great female character based on a flawed deduction from a controverial generalisation of a subjective opinion is a load of tosh. And it's tosh regardless of whether one agrees that Hale is better or not.

[Matt251287]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

Even Star Gate beats ME!

Every 'planet' those guys go to is colonial America.

Just replace the British with Goa'uld.



You know it's true ;-)

Modifié par Matt251287, 18 février 2012 - 09:01 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I'm preeeeeetty sure there was already a thread on this a couple hours ago.

I assumed so after the fact.  I did just get home from work, after all.  And everything is old on the internet.

Gabey5 wrote...

"why it's the most important scifi franchise of our generation"

what is "our generation"?

Because
it has much competition in that regard and mass effect while good does
not come close to say star trek and is a rips of or is "inspired by"
other series.

It is a good series but that article overstates its
case and reeks of someone who does not know sci fi or has not
experienced much of it

Star Trek was made in the 60's.  It's not our generation.  Unless you're 40 or something.

MATH!

[Ultai]

Gatt9 wrote...

I had to stop reading right here...

Mission difficulty will often remain unaffected by choices, where as character reactions, relationships, and entire narrative arcs will be altered significantly by every choice. Second, decisions are persistent through each installment in the series.

-Especially in ME2,  choices have no effect on anything.  Killing Samara or her daughter is so irrelevant that the daughter even says "Everyone will just think I'm her!",  the entire crew of the N7,  including the medical staff,  suddenly becomes unable to tell one Asari from another?  Nearly every choice leads to the same outcome,  you just hear something different while getting to the same conclusion.

-Nor has any narrative arc changed.  Kill Ashely and whathisname is the one he meets you and gives Ashley's dialogue,  and vice-versa.  One doesn't accept you and the other reject you,  it's the same outcome.  Kill Wrex and some other krogan is dropped in his place to give you the exact same tasks.

-Only 3 decision appear to persist.  Who you left to die,  Rachni queen,  and Collector's Base.  Nothing else I did in ME had any affect on ME2.  I got some random emails,  but the game played out exactly the same for everyone who imported from ME.  I even was railroaded into working for Cerebrus no matter what "My shepherd" did.

-Don't even get me started on the plot holes that go well beyond even amateur writing.

Indeed, I choked on my drink a bit when he mention entire narrative arcs changing.  Pretty funny.

[Selene Moonsong]

The facts as one sees then, is most often a matter of personal opinion that may carry more or less weight depending on the individual or our own perspectives of the individual and the topic at hand.

Being a long time fan (I grew up watching the original Star Trek series) of shows like Star Trek, Dr. Who, Star Wars, Battle Star Galactica (starring Loren Greene as Adama), and many other Sci-Fi TV shows, movies, and books, over the past decades, I most certainly agree with Kyle Munkittrick's overall assessment of Mass Effect's importance to the Sci-Fi genre of entertainment.

[Thrombin]

I just read the tweet linking to this article and I strongly disagree with the article's suggestion that mass effect portrays humanity as insignificant in the galaxy. The entire premise is that humanity is about the only species taking the threat of the Reapers seriously and Shepard, a human, will no doubt be the reason for its continued survival. How that gets anywhere close to a feeling of insignificance escapes me!

There's also a few quotes from the Codex which seem to bely this whole insignificance idea:

"Because of the human Spectre Shepard's pivotal role in saving the Council, many analysts conclude several humans will be made candidates for Spectre status, further solidifying the human contribution to galactic peace.

By achieving in decades what others waited centuries to receive, especially after so bloody a conflict, humans have guaranteed themselves deep hostility and fear throughout the galaxy."

"The Alliance military is of great concern to the galaxy. At first contact with the turians, they were completely inexperienced. Turian disdain turned to respect after the relief of Shanxi, where the humans surprised them with novel technologies and tactics.

The human devotion to understanding and adapting to modern space warfare stunned the staid Council races. For hundreds of years, they had lived behind the secure walls of long-proven technology and tactics. The Council regards the Alliance as a "sleeping giant". Less than 3% of humans volunteer to serve in their military, a lower proportion than any other species."

In my opinion the ME universe is just as positive about Humanity's destiny of galactic influence as any other franchise out there and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Regards

Julian

[Thrombin]

huntrrz wrote...

I thought the absence of any mention of "Babylon 5" in the article was very telling. It shares many of the same aspects the article claims Mass Effect is 'best in class', and I think the author had to ignore it to avoid weakening their points.

Yes, particularly the bit about all the aliens just having funny foreheads. There were a lot of non-humanoid aliens in Babylon 5, quite a few with significant roles.

[Naughty Bear]

Am i being cynical or did Bioware pay iO9 to make this article for publicity/marketing?

[Thrombin]

Naughty Bear wrote...

Am i being cynical or did Bioware pay iO9 to make this article for publicity/marketing?

If I was a prospective customer I'd be turned off by that article. Apart from the blatant hyperbole, the message that the franchise is great because it makes humanity out to be insignificant would be a complete turn off to me. I don't want my character to be insignificant thank  you very much!

I was a bit disappointed that several Bioware people tweeted their liking for it  

Modifié par Thrombin, 19 février 2012 - 12:58 .

[AlexXIV]

Thrombin wrote...

huntrrz wrote...

I thought the absence of any mention of "Babylon 5" in the article was very telling. It shares many of the same aspects the article claims Mass Effect is 'best in class', and I think the author had to ignore it to avoid weakening their points.

Yes, particularly the bit about all the aliens just having funny foreheads. There were a lot of non-humanoid aliens in Babylon 5, quite a few with significant roles.

They ripped the funny foreheads for DA2 elves.

[Naughty Bear]

Thrombin wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Am i being cynical or did Bioware pay iO9 to make this article for publicity/marketing?

If I was a prospective customer I'd be turned off by that article. Apart from the blatant hyperbole, the message that the franchise is great because it makes humanity out to be insignificant would be a complete turn off to me. I don't want my character to be insignificant thank  you very much!

I was a bit disappointed that several Bioware people tweeted their liking for it  

I don't mind that but the Humanity is insignificant but the  title itself 'Mass Effect is the most important sci-fi franhise of our generation' is so blantly obvious that they were paid to make this article for marketing/publicity reasons.

[Klijpope]

Naughty Bear wrote...

Thrombin wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Am i being cynical or did Bioware pay iO9 to make this article for publicity/marketing?

If I was a prospective customer I'd be turned off by that article. Apart from the blatant hyperbole, the message that the franchise is great because it makes humanity out to be insignificant would be a complete turn off to me. I don't want my character to be insignificant thank  you very much!

I was a bit disappointed that several Bioware people tweeted their liking for it  

I don't mind that but the Humanity is insignificant but the  title itself 'Mass Effect is the most important sci-fi franhise of our generation' is so blantly obvious that they were paid to make this article for marketing/publicity reasons.

Read more closely - it was not written for io9, it is a repost from Popbioethics (www.popbioethics.com/2012/02/why-mass-effect-is-the-most-important-science-fiction-universe-of-our-generation/). The author has already written articles saying ME is the Star Wars of this generation. He's obviously into ME, but that doesn't invalidate his arguments. Some of his points are overstated, but still worth considering. No hint that he's being paid for any of this. You can read the rest of his work (about transhumanism, in gneral) at the site, and make your own mind up.

It is only blanantly obvious if you're not willing to look further than the end of your own nose.

[Klijpope]

oops, repost

Modifié par Klijpope, 19 février 2012 - 01:42 .

[Ziggeh]

Thrombin wrote...
I was a bit disappointed that several Bioware people tweeted their liking for it 

Nothing I hate more than pride.

[Hydralisk]

ME_Fan wrote...

Stopped reading after the 'female commander is better' assertions.

You stopped reading because you disagreed with his opinion on which sex is more enjoyable to play in Mass Effect?

[saturos2]

CrustyBot wrote...

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

If you take it seriously, if you think it's a good read, then you're out of your mind.

Mass Effect will go down in history as the defining piece of Science Fiction in our generation. *snip*

Yeah, until Ridely Scott's "Prometheus" comes out.

[Han Shot First]

Phaedon wrote...

But Star Trek is not even a franchise of our generation. It's from the mid-60s.

Why do people keep repeating that Star Trek is from the mid 60s?

The Next Generation and DS9 were on TV in the early 90s, Voyager ended in about 2001 and Enterpise ended in 2005. You also had two Star Trek movies in the last decade. If anyone on this forum thinks none of the above are not TV shows of their generation (particularly Voyager and Enterpise), they are far too young to be playing Mass Effect in the first place.

Getting back on topic: Mass Effect is not deep at all. The only modern Sci Fi series I can think of offhand  that is less deep, is probably Star Wars.

I love Mass Effect but lets not make it into more than it is.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 19 février 2012 - 02:57 .

[wizardryforever]

Han Shot First wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

But Star Trek is not even a franchise of our generation. It's from the mid-60s.

Why do people keep repeating that Star Trek is from the mid 60s?

The Next Generation and DS9 were on TV in the early 90s, Voyager ended in about 2001 and Enterpise ended in 2005. You also had two Star Trek movies in the last decade. If anyone on this forum thinks none of the above are not TV shows of their generation (particularly Voyager and Enterpise), they are far too young to be playing Mass Effect in the first place.

Getting back on topic: Mass Effect is not deep at all. The only modern Sci Fi series I can think of offhand  that is less deep, is probably Star Wars.

I love Mass Effect but lets not make it into more than it is.

Probably because that's when the idea for Star Trek was first formed.  The other series can be considered spin-offs of an existing franchise, not the establishment of a new one.  Especially since they all follow the same formula more or less, just with different characters.  DS9 is the only oddball, largely because Paramount plaigarized Babylon 5 and slapped a Star Trek label on it.

Additions to a franchise don't change their age.

And come on, as much as I love Star Trek, the very episodic nature of the series (all of them) really hurts the narrative flow.  What may have been of vital importance in one episode is promptly forgotten by the next episode, probably never to be referenced again.  Most of the characters, especially in the older series, have far less characterization than those in ME.  And let's not forget the whole "Planet of Hats" phenomenon.  ME uses it too, but subverts it just as often.

Also, Star Wars is not in this generation either.  It was made in the late 70's/early 80's, before most of those on the forum were even born.

Modifié par wizardryforever, 19 février 2012 - 05:26 .

[huntrrz]

Hydralisk wrote...

ME_Fan wrote...

Stopped reading after the 'female commander is better' assertions.

You stopped reading because you disagreed with his opinion on which sex is more enjoyable to play in Mass Effect?

I think they stopped reading because the way that opinion was stated called the author's objectivity into question.

[Thrombin]

Ziggeh wrote...
Nothing I hate more than pride.

There's a difference between pride and celebrating the idea that you and you're race are worthless. Besides, the right or wrong of that philosophy isn't the point since it clearly isn't ME's philosophy contrary to the what the author of this article might think.

Regards

Julian