155 réponses à ce sujet

[Zuriki]

Unlocking characters is a little bit tedious, but it's not entirely fubar. I've unlocked Quarian, Salarian, Krogan and alt Human Gender. It would be nice to try out some Asari or Drell characters, but I'll just keep playing and leveling up my different characters, and keep buying veteran packs. I'll admit I was a little disappointed that by the time I unlocked my Krogan Soldier I had already achieved L20 in that class, so I didn't get the joy of watching my Krogan grow in strength, but it's still a fun class to power up some low-level squads; or if I just want to wreck the enemy.

Having more specialsed packs would be a nice addition. So weapon pack and character packs would be a nice, but there should still be some random element to it. It's like collectable card games. I would also ask to get rid of class XP boosts I've got some classes that are at level 4 without me ever even playing them once. Which is kind of silly.

[Nite77]

MrAnthonyDraft wrote...

I lol'd. You can't be really serious. That's a really childish attitude.

Why? What's so childish about it? That I don't want to be forced to play with something I don't like? In a GAME that I BOUGHT for ENTERTAINMENT?

Okay, let's talk about this from another angle... Let's say you like action movies. Safe bet there, probably. Might not be true, but for the sake of the argument.

You go to a movie, let's say "Arnold Terminator's Rambo Conan Special XVI". It's a 1,5h movie.
You get to the theather, aaaand they start with "George & Mark's Honeymoon", a 2-hour movie.
After that, they show you "How to pick lilies, by Granny Smith", a 2-hour movie.
After that, they run a couple of re-runs of "The Bold & the Beautiful", for three hours.
THEN, they show the original movie. After you leave, you notice that they had billed you for 8,5 hours worth of movies... and you only wanted the first. Childish much if you complain?

Okay, another angle. Let's take this multiplayer here. Let's play favorites for another type of player instead of what they currently do. 

You start with Asari (female, of course). the class is "healer". You need to rack up 100,000xp points and heal up to 5000 damage before you GET ANY ACCESS TO ANY GUNS, WHATSOEVER. If you suck at healing, though luck. Try another game. Childish much if you complain?

Can you now see what I mean? We play, and pay, this because we want to do something we actually LIKE, not something that is forced down our throats regradless of the entertainment factor.

(Imagine people faces when they go any buy a Ferrari/Lambo and are given the keys to a Prius. So sir, you need to drive 50,000 miles with this before you get access to another car. Incidentally, it can be the same Prius for the next 50,000 miles, you just have to hope you get lucky.)

[CerberusSoldier]

It has to go

[shyzny]

MrAnthonyDraft wrote...

shyzny wrote...

why is bioware so obsessed with random? Everyone hates it in swtor too

To break your argument, i don't hate it. Even in TOR.

okay everyone except you hates it, and im referring to the pvp reward system not random loot in "dungeons"

Modifié par shyzny, 20 février 2012 - 12:34 .

[MrAnthonyDraft]

Nite77 wrote...

MrAnthonyDraft wrote...

I lol'd. You can't be really serious. That's a really childish attitude.

Why? What's so childish about it? That I don't want to be forced to play with something I don't like? In a GAME that I BOUGHT for ENTERTAINMENT?

Okay, let's talk about this from another angle... Let's say you like action movies. Safe bet there, probably. Might not be true, but for the sake of the argument.

You go to a movie, let's say "Arnold Terminator's Rambo Conan Special XVI". It's a 1,5h movie.
You get to the theather, aaaand they start with "George & Mark's Honeymoon", a 2-hour movie.
After that, they show you "How to pick lilies, by Granny Smith", a 2-hour movie.
After that, they run a couple of re-runs of "The Bold & the Beautiful", for three hours.
THEN, they show the original movie. After you leave, you notice that they had billed you for 8,5 hours worth of movies... and you only wanted the first. Childish much if you complain?

Okay, another angle. Let's take this multiplayer here. Let's play favorites for another type of player instead of what they currently do. 

You start with Asari (female, of course). the class is "healer". You need to rack up 100,000xp points and heal up to 5000 damage before you GET ANY ACCESS TO ANY GUNS, WHATSOEVER. If you suck at healing, though luck. Try another game. Childish much if you complain?

Can you now see what I mean? We play, and pay, this because we want to do something we actually LIKE, not something that is forced down our throats regradless of the entertainment factor.

(Imagine people faces when they go any buy a Ferrari/Lambo and are given the keys to a Prius. So sir, you need to drive 50,000 miles with this before you get access to another car. Incidentally, it can be the same Prius for the next 50,000 miles, you just have to hope you get lucky.)

Or you could just tolerate it and just go with the flow. Works much better.

Besides, I don't see what's so wrong about not playing the class you want and try out the other class. Might as well try another one while you're trying to get lucky and get the specific one.

Also, if you suck with the assault rifle, it doesn't mean you have to use it. I for one play as an Asari Adept with a Sniper rifle and a shotgun. No problem at all.

The unlock system is fine and it shoudl stay. Though, tbh, I did not expect that people would be actually upset with the unlockable characters. Personalyl I don't mind it, but I agree that they should add one free unlock of your choosing. That way everyone can be happy for the sake of giving stuff for free.(in game logic).

Also, I guess majority of people just don't like gamble, that's all. I've read one post here that a guy has bought over 30 vet packs or so and was so frustrated that he didn't get anything. In all honesty, it is his fault for taking the gamble too seriously. Just thought I'd through this in here

Modifié par MrAnthonyDraft, 20 février 2012 - 12:52 .

[pondrthis]

I'm level 55 or something and have no unlockable characters. I don't have a problem with that per se, except that I'm already maxing out my favorite two classes and getting to a decent level with another one or two. As a game which primarily appeals to the RPG crowd, it will lose the players' interests if the new character "drop" rates aren't high enough to keep high-level players spending their training points.

...Then again, the full game will have respec options, so the above argument is kinda moot. Just give me an alien! (But not a Drell, they're kinda wimpy.)
 
EDIT: I think the core problem is that random packs, which I approve of in general, only work when you don't know what you're "missing out on". Hoping to get a Salarian or Krogan time after time is not fun. Getting surprised with a shotgun bayonette which prompts you to make a melee-focused Sentinel is, though. In simple terms: the current system effectively uses the element of surprise with weapon mods (since the average player doesn't keep a list of all mods handy), but character and weapon unlocks are a chore which tries the patience.

Modifié par pondrthis, 20 février 2012 - 03:36 .

[headcr4b]

Several points I want to put out there. This doesn't apply to everyone, but I don't want to go through the whole thread and quote everybody individually. I apologize in advance if it sounds scattered, this is pretty much going to go stream of consciousness.
Firstly, as someone already pointed out, its really unreliable to gauge how unpopular something is on the internet. The internet tends to blow problems out of proportion. Pointing to a number of people on the internet, ESPECIALLY ON FORUMS, is NOT defining proof of how unpopular something is since there is no comparison to the population as a whole. It is entirely possible that the majority of people LOVES the system and is too busy playing the game to come complain on the forums (not claiming this is actually the case, but its possible). Its my personal opinion that all the kvetching is simply the phenomenon of the "vocal minority".

And seriously guys. This is a demo. You haven't paid for ANYTHING yet. Look on the bright side, now you know what you're GOING to pay for (unless you dropped $$ on the preorder already). As fans, you are well within your rights to be displeased with the direction Bioware took with the multiplayer. Much of the discussion I read falls solidly within this category. I am happy with that. Bioware has long been a company that takes fan input into account to make their products better. But BOY am I hearing some serious moaning and crying. Of people taking it personally. How Bioware has produced a draconian system that SCREWS honest gamers. If you don't like it that much, you can exercise your ultimate right as the consumer to not buy the product.

As a side note, this is just the multiplayer component. Something new they added. Something loads of gamers who buy this next installation of Mass Effect for the single player will have no idea had existed before purchasing their product. Something that adds value to the originally single player product they enjoyed two times before. For the sake of argument, its like if you were a fan of "Product X". Every time a new iteration of the "Product X" comes out, you buy it. It gets better and better. Then one day, along with upgrading "Product X" as usual, they decide to ALSO add a new feature that allows you to enjoy "Product X" with your friends. It is not necessary to use this new feature and its not implemented in a way that would interfere with any aspect of the original working of "Product X". But this feature is not implemented in the way you like. Assuming the new iteration is just as good as it would be if they didn't spend any development time on the new features, it would be silly to decide not buy the new "Product  X".

Bioware revealed their multiplayer system in all its glory (ok, SOME of its glory, not all of it is unlocked for us to use) and SURPRISE! Its a random number based loot dropping system. This type of reward system has been tried and true and POPULAR for DECADES in tons of games. Its not like Bioware is claiming otherwise or is trying to decieve you in any way. Remember Diablo 2? Players would spend hours, some DAYS, doing the same boss runs to get some of the most powerful items in the game. And not ONCE did I hear it was "unfair". You knew what you were getting into. Knowing how the system works, trying the system, having the system give you what you perceive as "junk", then complaining that the system is broken really makes me want to think some of you aren't trying hard enough. I really do think its a really small minority of you who actually are guilty of this. But losing the lottery doesn't mean the lottery system is broken.

All of my friends who play this demo have all unlocked most of the characters or weapons they're interested in. One got their Salarian Infiltrator immediately in their starting pack. It took me over 4 hours of cumulative gameplay before I ended up getting the Asari Adept I wanted twice in a row. One played for almost 11 hours straight, only to get his Widow on the last Veteran pack he bought before going to sleep. Its chance. Its completely yet brutally fair. It didn't treat my first friend with any more favoritism than me. I personally think thats beautiful. To keep you coming back. To make all that frustration finally pay off with a sense of achievement when you finally roll that number that unlocks what you want.

The reason why I call some of you "entitled" is the fact you look at this system based on luck and feel like you should be guaranteed something for the time you put in, however much it is. A system where you are "guaranteed" to get a character unlock. Or "guaranteed" to get a rare weapon unlock. With a system like this, the only thing you will ever be guaranteed is that the only way you will get what you want is to play more. Its not a guarantee that you WILL get what you want. Just a condition that you HAVE TO PLAY in order to even have a chance, no matter how miniscule, to WIN. It is what it is. There is no reason to believe Bioware isn't going to change it. There is no proof that a majority of the playerbase hates it.

I get that some of you don't like my calling you lazy. I wouldn't like it either. But I'm not trying to criticize without cause. I'm sure there are some of you who actually have put in many hours and haven't gotten what you want. But for every one of you, there is someone who the system WORKED. Thats how it goes. To complain the system is broken because of the experience of only those who got unlucky is ignoring how the system works in the first place.

Somebody mentioned that you don't earn the items in this game, that you win them. Semantics. The only difference is that your definition of "earning" implies some guarantee, while winning leaves it up to the random number gods. In practice, its still earning it. Spending 5 minutes or 5 days makes no difference. You have to put in the time to get what you want, no matter how long it takes.

To me its not a concept of fairness. This system is FAIR. It treats everybody the same. Its a question of DIFFICULTY. The two are separate issues. I'm in complete favor of systems to mitigate the difficulty of the system. But implement too drastic of changes and you have a game thats too easy to unlock everything. Some of you would argue that the only way to get the whole experience is to have access to everything. I would argue that an essential part of the experience Bioware designed is the progressive difficulty of unlocking much of the multiplayer part of the game through the randomness they implemented.

The system is not perfect. Not by a long shot. But in no way is it broken. Or unfair. It is what it is. Learn to live with the framework Bioware provided. It is not an unreasonable framework. They are not pulling the rug beneath you. They are not tricking you. Other than the nitty gritty specifics of how the system behaves, the system is fairly transparent. If you want changes, suggest ways to smooth out the workings within the system instead of rabbling to have the whole thing completely overhauled. It is an unreasonable request and quite honestly selfish.

[R Rarzy]

I have been playing bout 10 hours a day for the past 4 days in a row, and i still haven't gotten the only thing I want, a Krogan. I have probably bought over 100 veteran packs. The issue isn't that the system isn't fair, or that it's broken. It's simply that it's frustrating when it shouldn't be. Those 40 hours I've put into the game should be because I wanted to have fun, not because I'm trying to unlock something with essentially no form of progress. Because of the current system, I'm technically no closer to unlocking him now then I was 40 game hours ago. It's frustrating, simple as that.

After all the time I've put in with nothing to show for it, the thought of unlocking what I would have wanted in a mere 4, or even 11 hours, is almost mindboggling to me at this point.

Modifié par R Rarzy, 20 février 2012 - 04:42 .

[Butcher_of_Torfan]

I think there's an easy way to fix this. Let players buy a some specific character and guns, but make it MUCH more expensive than the random boxes. Add a random weapon item, for a specific weapon type. Maybe its a new gun, maybe just an upgrade. More specific, but still more expensive than the random anything box.

Then you'd have to ask yourself, do i keep spending the time grinding and saving away for my Drell, or do i gamble and maybe get some really cool stuff, and necessary rockets and medigel?

It might not be quicker than the current system, but at least gives you a goal to work toward, and would cut back on a lot of frustration for people right now, while still keeping the general system that was intended.

Modifié par Butcher_of_Torfan, 20 février 2012 - 05:07 .

[trackboy186]

headcr4b wrote...

Somebody mentioned that you don't earn the items in this game, that you win them. Semantics. The only difference is that your definition of "earning" implies some guarantee, while winning leaves it up to the random number gods. In practice, its still earning it. Spending 5 minutes or 5 days makes no difference. You have to put in the time to get what you want, no matter how long it takes.

That would be me. No, it is not semantics. I don't go to work and recieve my paycheck because the wheel said I win my money. I go and work to earn it. There is nothing in practice that makes them similar. Playing for 5 days and getting 0 rewards that I care about is a disincentive, not a hook.

[CerberusSoldier]

I hope it gets fixed

[Dhraconus]

R Rarzy wrote...

I have been playing bout 10 hours a day for the past 4 days in a row, and i still haven't gotten the only thing I want, a Krogan. I have probably bought over 100 veteran packs. The issue isn't that the system isn't fair, or that it's broken. It's simply that it's frustrating when it shouldn't be. Those 40 hours I've put into the game should be because I wanted to have fun, not because I'm trying to unlock something with essentially no form of progress. Because of the current system, I'm technically no closer to unlocking him now then I was 40 game hours ago. It's frustrating, simple as that.

After all the time I've put in with nothing to show for it, the thought of unlocking what I would have wanted in a mere 4, or even 11 hours, is almost mindboggling to me at this point.

I know this feeling all too well.  I've put in about the same amount of time I think.

I have the Krogan, Salarian, Quarian, and Turian.  I want the Drell and the Asari.  To make matters worse the 4 I have I've "unlocked" about 4 times each so I can make them really colorful, but I still don't have the only 2 races I actually want.

I'd be a happy if in the retail version when you start your beginner pack or whatever it's called gave you a free unlock of your choice.  Mine gave me a Quarian in the demo which I don't like and haven't used more than two or three times.

The good news is after a while the selection of available things to unlock drops because you've already unlocked those things so you are actually getting "closer" to your goal.

[shyzny]

headcr4b wrote...

Several points I want to put out there. This doesn't apply to everyone, but I don't want to go through the whole thread and quote everybody individually. I apologize in advance if it sounds scattered, this is pretty much going to go stream of consciousness.
Firstly, as someone already pointed out, its really unreliable to gauge how unpopular something is on the internet. The internet tends to blow problems out of proportion. Pointing to a number of people on the internet, ESPECIALLY ON FORUMS, is NOT defining proof of how unpopular something is since there is no comparison to the population as a whole. It is entirely possible that the majority of people LOVES the system and is too busy playing the game to come complain on the forums (not claiming this is actually the case, but its possible). Its my personal opinion that all the kvetching is simply the phenomenon of the "vocal minority".

And seriously guys. This is a demo. You haven't paid for ANYTHING yet. Look on the bright side, now you know what you're GOING to pay for (unless you dropped $$ on the preorder already). As fans, you are well within your rights to be displeased with the direction Bioware took with the multiplayer. Much of the discussion I read falls solidly within this category. I am happy with that. Bioware has long been a company that takes fan input into account to make their products better. But BOY am I hearing some serious moaning and crying. Of people taking it personally. How Bioware has produced a draconian system that SCREWS honest gamers. If you don't like it that much, you can exercise your ultimate right as the consumer to not buy the product.

As a side note, this is just the multiplayer component. Something new they added. Something loads of gamers who buy this next installation of Mass Effect for the single player will have no idea had existed before purchasing their product. Something that adds value to the originally single player product they enjoyed two times before. For the sake of argument, its like if you were a fan of "Product X". Every time a new iteration of the "Product X" comes out, you buy it. It gets better and better. Then one day, along with upgrading "Product X" as usual, they decide to ALSO add a new feature that allows you to enjoy "Product X" with your friends. It is not necessary to use this new feature and its not implemented in a way that would interfere with any aspect of the original working of "Product X". But this feature is not implemented in the way you like. Assuming the new iteration is just as good as it would be if they didn't spend any development time on the new features, it would be silly to decide not buy the new "Product  X".

Bioware revealed their multiplayer system in all its glory (ok, SOME of its glory, not all of it is unlocked for us to use) and SURPRISE! Its a random number based loot dropping system. This type of reward system has been tried and true and POPULAR for DECADES in tons of games. Its not like Bioware is claiming otherwise or is trying to decieve you in any way. Remember Diablo 2? Players would spend hours, some DAYS, doing the same boss runs to get some of the most powerful items in the game. And not ONCE did I hear it was "unfair". You knew what you were getting into. Knowing how the system works, trying the system, having the system give you what you perceive as "junk", then complaining that the system is broken really makes me want to think some of you aren't trying hard enough. I really do think its a really small minority of you who actually are guilty of this. But losing the lottery doesn't mean the lottery system is broken.

All of my friends who play this demo have all unlocked most of the characters or weapons they're interested in. One got their Salarian Infiltrator immediately in their starting pack. It took me over 4 hours of cumulative gameplay before I ended up getting the Asari Adept I wanted twice in a row. One played for almost 11 hours straight, only to get his Widow on the last Veteran pack he bought before going to sleep. Its chance. Its completely yet brutally fair. It didn't treat my first friend with any more favoritism than me. I personally think thats beautiful. To keep you coming back. To make all that frustration finally pay off with a sense of achievement when you finally roll that number that unlocks what you want.

The reason why I call some of you "entitled" is the fact you look at this system based on luck and feel like you should be guaranteed something for the time you put in, however much it is. A system where you are "guaranteed" to get a character unlock. Or "guaranteed" to get a rare weapon unlock. With a system like this, the only thing you will ever be guaranteed is that the only way you will get what you want is to play more. Its not a guarantee that you WILL get what you want. Just a condition that you HAVE TO PLAY in order to even have a chance, no matter how miniscule, to WIN. It is what it is. There is no reason to believe Bioware isn't going to change it. There is no proof that a majority of the playerbase hates it.

I get that some of you don't like my calling you lazy. I wouldn't like it either. But I'm not trying to criticize without cause. I'm sure there are some of you who actually have put in many hours and haven't gotten what you want. But for every one of you, there is someone who the system WORKED. Thats how it goes. To complain the system is broken because of the experience of only those who got unlucky is ignoring how the system works in the first place.

Somebody mentioned that you don't earn the items in this game, that you win them. Semantics. The only difference is that your definition of "earning" implies some guarantee, while winning leaves it up to the random number gods. In practice, its still earning it. Spending 5 minutes or 5 days makes no difference. You have to put in the time to get what you want, no matter how long it takes.

To me its not a concept of fairness. This system is FAIR. It treats everybody the same. Its a question of DIFFICULTY. The two are separate issues. I'm in complete favor of systems to mitigate the difficulty of the system. But implement too drastic of changes and you have a game thats too easy to unlock everything. Some of you would argue that the only way to get the whole experience is to have access to everything. I would argue that an essential part of the experience Bioware designed is the progressive difficulty of unlocking much of the multiplayer part of the game through the randomness they implemented.

The system is not perfect. Not by a long shot. But in no way is it broken. Or unfair. It is what it is. Learn to live with the framework Bioware provided. It is not an unreasonable framework. They are not pulling the rug beneath you. They are not tricking you. Other than the nitty gritty specifics of how the system behaves, the system is fairly transparent. If you want changes, suggest ways to smooth out the workings within the system instead of rabbling to have the whole thing completely overhauled. It is an unreasonable request and quite honestly selfish.

i didnt have to kill bosses in D2 in hopes of dropping an unlock to play a druid.  this has nothing to do with laziness on the players part.  they could make the grind a million times longer if I knew i was going to get the specific race unlock i wanted, i would be fine.  Again, to me its just the class unlocks, not so much anything else.

an idea i just had, what if they changed it so that you played a char to 20, then it unlocks one of your choice in that class, but they made it so you had to relevel that next race choice.

Modifié par shyzny, 20 février 2012 - 06:36 .

[headcr4b]

trackboy186 wrote...

headcr4b wrote...

Somebody mentioned that you don't earn the items in this game, that you win them. Semantics. The only difference is that your definition of "earning" implies some guarantee, while winning leaves it up to the random number gods. In practice, its still earning it. Spending 5 minutes or 5 days makes no difference. You have to put in the time to get what you want, no matter how long it takes.

That would be me. No, it is not semantics. I don't go to work and recieve my paycheck because the wheel said I win my money. I go and work to earn it. There is nothing in practice that makes them similar. Playing for 5 days and getting 0 rewards that I care about is a disincentive, not a hook.

Comparing apples and oranges. Going to work implies a guarantee of being rewarded (getting paid). The system here has no guarantee and there was never any implication of any. It is very likely that if you play 1000 games, you would unlock what you want. But still not guaranteed. And frankly, I don't see Bioware changing anything to make anything guaranteed anytime soon, if ever.

And as impossible you think race unlocks are, they aren't as hard to get as you think. As of 30 minutes ago, me and my friends have all each unlocked most of what is available right now on the demo. That includes all the races. We're all missing several of the rare weapons. I still don't have my Widow. But I don't blame Bioware ONE BIT. I had a blast playing so far. And I really feel good that I EARNED what all the pretty unlocks that I got. And yes I EARNED them. I had to spend time to get them. I was never guaranteed any result. But spending time was still necessary to get them. I didn't sit back and it just magically appeared in my inventory. So yes. Its earning. In a technically different way semantically but with the same net effect of getting the unlock.

You've got to let go of this sense of entitlement. I get that you're dissatisfied with the fact you don't have what you want. But you got to accept how the system works already. You're fighting a battle you will never win. Its like the lottery. Except you buy tickets in this lottery with time you invest in the game. If I ever see anybody complain that they never won the lottery because its UNFAIR and they want a new system that would enable them to win more, I would probably die from laughing so hard.

If you think the existing system should be balanced to help those with less time to play, it is something I could get behind. But within the confines of the random drop system they already have established. Its a perfectly legitimate system that works exactly how its supposed to.

Also, from what my interpretation of Jarrett Lee's post a few days ago, things in the retail version might go in the direction that shifts the types of unlocks you might see in a direction you may control. Such as an unlock pack that has a higher chance of a character unlocking. I feel that a pack with a guarantee of a character unlock would go against the spirit of the random unlock system they have of which they have stated is "not likely to go away". We have no idea right now and the sky is the limit. So, thankfully, maybe things will be a little simpler in the future.

Modifié par headcr4b, 20 février 2012 - 12:09 .

[Nite77]

headcr4b wrote...
....
To me its not a concept of fairness. This system is FAIR. It treats everybody the same.
...
To keep you coming back. To make all that frustration finally pay off with a sense of achievement when you finally roll that number that unlocks what you want.
...

But that's the whole point it ISN'T fair, don't you get it? It's only "fair" to people who want to play characters that are by default unlocked versus "fair" to the people who DON'T. 

But it DOESN'T. Forcing me to play with something I DON'T WANT TO really DOES NOT make me come back to it. If a piece of entertainment makes me frustrated IT HAS FAILED. It isn't entertainment if I get frustrated, it is a piece of cr*p.
Also, getting lucky in a lottery roll DOES NOT equal any sense of "achievement". You didn't do anything to "earn" it, you just got lucky. Achievement DOES NOT EQUAL luck.

Also, as other's said, it is not "incentive" for me to play more if I need luck to unlock what I wanted to play with in the first place. 

MrAnthonyDraft wrote...
...
Personalyl I don't mind it, but I agree that they should add one free unlock of your choosing. That way everyone can be happy for the sake of giving stuff for free.(in game logic).
...

 

But it is ALREADY giving "stuff for free". The default unlocks are EXACTLY the same "stuff for free" for people who like to play with those combinations, than are those unlockables for people who'd like to play with them. The thing now is, that the game is just playing favorites with the majority (with the cost of p*ssing off the others).


Think it like this: What if there were two very high-spec servers in the game, one in US and one in Europe. You'd have to play x amount of time to be able to have a chance to play on the other one. Of course US folks would like to play on the US one and Europeans on the EU one. Makes sense. BUT, currently the system is so that ONE of them is only unlocked at start, no matter where you are from. It's playing favorites with the people closest to the available server. You don't have a choice, they made it for you and you have to try your luck to get the one you'd like IF YOU DON'T ALREADY like the default choice.

---

I don't know WHY is it so hard for some people to grasp that most people play games to ENJOY them. NOT to have to work their asses off to get what they want. We do that in real life already, I don't want my entertainment to resemble my real life. That is the exact opposite I want, actually.

[Merchant2006]

Oh come on, it's a demo. I admit, perhaps the character unlocks could be better as the Veteran packs keep on giving me exp for my already maxxed out male engineer. I don't get unlocks for my quarian nor have I managed to unlock Turian Sentinel (Warp/Overload? Do want) and Salarian Infiltrator. Likewise I have unlocked classes that my other friends have not and viceversa.

Perhaps if you could increase just a little bit, say... 5% better chance of unlocking a class? Maybe? Pweese? Nothing game breaking though...

[Persona RED]

Maybe a good solution would be to allow players to choose which race of each class they wish to unlock. Afterwards, they could have to work to unlock the others if the wished.

[headcr4b]

Nite77 wrote...

headcr4b wrote...
....
To me its not a concept of fairness. This system is FAIR. It treats everybody the same.
...
To keep you coming back. To make all that frustration finally pay off with a sense of achievement when you finally roll that number that unlocks what you want.
...

But that's the whole point it ISN'T fair, don't you get it? It's only "fair" to people who want to play characters that are by default unlocked versus "fair" to the people who DON'T. 

But it DOESN'T. Forcing me to play with something I DON'T WANT TO really DOES NOT make me come back to it. If a piece of entertainment makes me frustrated IT HAS FAILED. It isn't entertainment if I get frustrated, it is a piece of cr*p.
Also, getting lucky in a lottery roll DOES NOT equal any sense of "achievement". You didn't do anything to "earn" it, you just got lucky. Achievement DOES NOT EQUAL luck.

Also, as other's said, it is not "incentive" for me to play more if I need luck to unlock what I wanted to play with in the first place. 

MrAnthonyDraft wrote...
...
Personalyl I don't mind it, but I agree that they should add one free unlock of your choosing. That way everyone can be happy for the sake of giving stuff for free.(in game logic).
...

 

But it is ALREADY giving "stuff for free". The default unlocks are EXACTLY the same "stuff for free" for people who like to play with those combinations, than are those unlockables for people who'd like to play with them. The thing now is, that the game is just playing favorites with the majority (with the cost of p*ssing off the others).


Think it like this: What if there were two very high-spec servers in the game, one in US and one in Europe. You'd have to play x amount of time to be able to have a chance to play on the other one. Of course US folks would like to play on the US one and Europeans on the EU one. Makes sense. BUT, currently the system is so that ONE of them is only unlocked at start, no matter where you are from. It's playing favorites with the people closest to the available server. You don't have a choice, they made it for you and you have to try your luck to get the one you'd like IF YOU DON'T ALREADY like the default choice.

---

I don't know WHY is it so hard for some people to grasp that most people play games to ENJOY them. NOT to have to work their asses off to get what they want. We do that in real life already, I don't want my entertainment to resemble my real life. That is the exact opposite I want, actually.

I'm not saying you should enjoy the system. Nobody should be forced to like anything. I never said you should LIKE it. Just deal with it. Or not play. As you rightfully noted, its a matter of taste. You don't think the system brinngs value or keeps you coming back? Great. Your opinion is just as valid as mine. And I happen to think the system is fine. For example, I don't enjoy sports games. I don't enjoy racing games. I DON'T HOWEVER JUDGE AND CALL THEM FAILURES OF ENTERTAINMENT. Doing so is incredibly arrogant and judgmental. Just because it doesn't happen to line up with my tastes doesn't deem it inferior. I fail to see what the problem is here.

You also fail to see my point with luck and achievement. It is true what you say. There is no achievement in pressing a button and receiving bacon based on a 1% chance it will drop. BUT THATS NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. Nice to miss my point completely. My point is that you HAVE TO SPEND TIME to get what you want. And because how probability works, it is more likely that you will spend lots of time trying to unlock things, including the things you want. It does not mean those who have all the unlocks will be any more skilled than the next person, as they could of been stupidly lucky and have unlocked everything really easy. But there will be a definite correlation between how many unlocks most people have and how much time they spent. And an investment of time is an achievement in of itself. You may not believe it to be so and believe you are fruitlessly wasting your time. I think that is sad that you need to enjoy this great gaming experience through such a small lens. But that is fine. I understand that. But don't pretend that your truth is the only truth.

I did not understand much of what you said in the second part. But the system is most certainly fair. You have the same chance of unlocking the Widow as I do. It is brutally fair. Perhaps it may seem unfair that if I play 10x you do, I will have 10x the chance of getting it. But I still have to play 10x the amount you do. Nobody is getting an advantage over anybody. If you want to get ahead, you have to pay. Nothing is for free.

I'm not going to even touch the second part. I don't understand your analogy. It ignores most of the essential parts of the argument and concentrates mostly on superficial similarities, if even that. Pointless anyway. Although I actually think McAnthonyDraft's idea actually might be onto something, it has little chance of being implemented. A nice thought, but thats probably all it will remain. Hopefully I'll be wrong, I like the idea of being able to choose one thing to expedite the process.

I'm saying that it is YOU who need to wake up and accept that this system isn't going to be changed soon. If ever. The system they designed was done so intentionally and with probably with tons of ideas being passed back and forth. I'm sure people more creative and smarter than both of us are working hard to improve our experience. But they probably aren't going to change things in the way you want. And what you want is a drastic overhaul of the entire system based on your personal taste and opinion. Won't. Happen. Just accept it dude. 

You are right that people play games to enjoy them. But you are wrong in your assumption that everybody has the same definition of "fun" as you do.

Edit: Some minor corrections to clarify my point. I also forgot to add that the system is brutally fair. You definition of fair is skewed subjectively in terms of enjoyment. Mine is framed that unlocks are the same for everyone. Of course people who only enjoy human characters won't have to go through the whole process. But thats not the point. The game is designed so the BASIC EXPERIENCE is humans. If you like it, great! But if you want MORE, you gotta unlock it. By playing. And with a fair amount of luck. Its not unfair to anybody, since everybody has to go through the same thing. Bioware purposefully designed it so there is a progression from human to alien. Comparing people who enjoy only the basic characters to those who only enjoy the locked aliens reeks of manufactured drama and bitterness that it wasn't the other way around. Through what you've said, I have a feeling that you're trying to disguise the fact that the system didn't "favor" you (in your own strange logic) as some grand unfairness of the system oppressing the poor subjected multiplayer population.

In a way, you're insisting they change their design philosophy entirely and bend to your will. Its like saying you don't like the multiplayer as player vs computer and it should be PvP. It's not the point. Its BEYOND the point. Its beyond the scope of your influence as a fan. Stop it.

Modifié par headcr4b, 20 février 2012 - 01:19 .

[headcr4b]

Merchant2006 wrote...

Oh come on, it's a demo. I admit, perhaps the character unlocks could be better as the Veteran packs keep on giving me exp for my already maxxed out male engineer. I don't get unlocks for my quarian nor have I managed to unlock Turian Sentinel (Warp/Overload? Do want) and Salarian Infiltrator. Likewise I have unlocked classes that my other friends have not and viceversa.

Perhaps if you could increase just a little bit, say... 5% better chance of unlocking a class? Maybe? Pweese? Nothing game breaking though...

I also think changing the percentages is probably the easiest and best way to get things moving. Though not too much. Gotta find that sweet spot between too easy and too hard. I don't envy whoever job's it is to balance these kind of things. 

[shyzny]

headcr4b wrote...

I'm saying that it is YOU who need to wake up and accept that this system isn't going to be changed soon

Actually Bioware has already stated that it will be different on launch.  I beleive they said there would be more types of packages you could spend your credits on.

I however don't really want the option to have a race "given" to us.  Its just ridiculous that you can be as high level as some people are and not have the race combo you want.  I think my idea would have been better of unlocking the next race in that class after reaching 20.

[trackboy186]

headcr4b wrote...

trackboy186 wrote...

headcr4b wrote...

Somebody mentioned that you don't earn the items in this game, that you win them. Semantics. The only difference is that your definition of "earning" implies some guarantee, while winning leaves it up to the random number gods. In practice, its still earning it. Spending 5 minutes or 5 days makes no difference. You have to put in the time to get what you want, no matter how long it takes.

That would be me. No, it is not semantics. I don't go to work and recieve my paycheck because the wheel said I win my money. I go and work to earn it. There is nothing in practice that makes them similar. Playing for 5 days and getting 0 rewards that I care about is a disincentive, not a hook.

Comparing apples and oranges. Going to work implies a guarantee of being rewarded (getting paid). The system here has no guarantee and there was never any implication of any. It is very likely that if you play 1000 games, you would unlock what you want. But still not guaranteed. And frankly, I don't see Bioware changing anything to make anything guaranteed anytime soon, if ever.

Thank you for absolutely explaining why this multiplayer fails as entertainment for me. I want a guarantee that my time is being spent doing something worthwhile. Telling me that I can grind for hundreds of hours and not be rewarded is entirely the problem with a random system. My time is valuable and I'd like to be rewarded for spending it. There is no "sense of entitlement" here. I'm not asking for everything to be given to me as I place the disk in the tray. I only want a concrete path to what I need to do to enjoy the game, as opposed to leaving it to a random generator. Asking for an alternate rewards systems is not entitlement.

[glacier1701]

 I am another one of those who thinks that the Random Racial unlock system does NOT work. I am quite happy for supplies/equipment/weapons to be random as I am almost certain that that fits into the context of the full game when we get to see it. However for races this is a different matter. As most people posting here who do not like the system they point out the 2 most salient facts that matter and trump ANY arguement against them.

 Firstly the game is bought for ENTERTAINMENT. There is a fine line between something being fun and not being fun. In the case of races the fact that people want to try out new races is (or can be) a great source of fun yet it is quite possible that even after 60 hours or more of gaming they have not managed to unlock a race that they would love to try. Personally I have spent about 50 hours or so playing and still have 50% of the races to unlock despite having 60+ levels overall. While I have no favourite race I want to play I can sympathise with those who want to play a specific race and who face the prospect of putting in that much time or even more and still cannot be sure they get the race they want!!!

 Secondly BioWare itself has via Jarret Lee's post acknowledged that they are concerned with the negative impact the random unlock system is having on player experiences. While we have no promises as to what they will finally release it is almost certain that they are looking at the 'feedback' these forums are providing and looking at potential day 1 changes to the system. What makes this more interesting is that, for the most part, those who do not like the unlock system are being very specific in that it is the RACIAL unlock that they find most objectionable. In other words BioWare did NOT expect our reaction to this system to be so specific and so negative and are concerned enough to post about it and behind the scenes are looking at it in a new light with the view to making some last minute changes.

Modifié par glacier1701, 20 février 2012 - 03:42 .

[Hunter_Wolf]

shyzny wrote...

why is bioware so obsessed with random? Everyone hates it in swtor too

Sure everybody hates it... when you aren't getting what you want. So basically with that in mind, it's working as intended when you get what you want then right? 

I spent three days trying to unlock the Mattock and I aint even mad. This whole sense of Entitlement is the problem. RNG is RNG, the game owes you nothing.

Modifié par Hunter_Wolf, 20 février 2012 - 03:44 .

[R Rarzy]

Dhraconus wrote...

R Rarzy wrote...

I have been playing bout 10 hours a day for the past 4 days in a row, and i still haven't gotten the only thing I want, a Krogan. I have probably bought over 100 veteran packs. The issue isn't that the system isn't fair, or that it's broken. It's simply that it's frustrating when it shouldn't be. Those 40 hours I've put into the game should be because I wanted to have fun, not because I'm trying to unlock something with essentially no form of progress. Because of the current system, I'm technically no closer to unlocking him now then I was 40 game hours ago. It's frustrating, simple as that.

After all the time I've put in with nothing to show for it, the thought of unlocking what I would have wanted in a mere 4, or even 11 hours, is almost mindboggling to me at this point.

I know this feeling all too well.  I've put in about the same amount of time I think.

I have the Krogan, Salarian, Quarian, and Turian.  I want the Drell and the Asari.  To make matters worse the 4 I have I've "unlocked" about 4 times each so I can make them really colorful, but I still don't have the only 2 races I actually want.

I'd be a happy if in the retail version when you start your beginner pack or whatever it's called gave you a free unlock of your choice.  Mine gave me a Quarian in the demo which I don't like and haven't used more than two or three times.

The good news is after a while the selection of available things to unlock drops because you've already unlocked those things so you are actually getting "closer" to your goal.

Oh the irony.. It really does suck.  I have unlocked the Drell and Asari multiple times each as well, but not the single Krogan I want.  Can we switch?

[Fraust Dogger]

Unlocked the Krogan soldier I was looking for last night, twice. I felt the same way I imagined I would, unenthusiastic and just waiting to play the game in the way I meant to from the beginning. It's the same way I'd feel if Mass Effect 3 shipped 5 days late.

I now feel like no race/class combo should be locked. That is my opinion but I feel many other share it given the direction this post has done. There are still many customization options to unlock and I feel like that's okay (not great, but okay) to be left up to random chance.

I feel for people like R Rarzy that are probably playing this multiplayer just as obsessively as I am, but still haven't gotten what they wanted. I hope bioware/ea hears our feedback and makes our first days of ME3's multiplayer a little friendlier.

Modifié par Fraust Dogger, 20 février 2012 - 10:44 .