28 réponses à ce sujet

[Paragon78]

Hi,

Let me start by saying I just finished the game first time through and it was very fun. I played a Beserker/Reaver human noble. Finished 66% of the game in 48 hours. I wanted to start over again and wanted to create some unique characters. Like maybe a human beserker/champion archer instead of traditional human archer. I even thought of making Alistair an archer with high dex and str which would allow him to range dps/tank. All of this got me to thinking and so I started trying to figure out which stats affect abilities and how much. You will be suprised as I was I am sure.

Dex and Str increase auto attack damage by .3 for the weapons that are based on either dex or str. A 10 str increase gave a little over 3 damage increase in my auto attack damage for my beserker and also about a 3-4 damage increase for all my abilities around the board.
 
Magic of course increases spellpower and this I thought was so important for increases the damage of my mages. I did a small test below with a group of spells on a single mob. I saved before and kept reloading it trying more and more spellpower to see how much spellpower actually increased my damage.

Keep in mind this is the same mob so damage reflected here is accurated.
                       18sp     28sp     38sp    48sp
Arcane Bolt   38,         42,        45,        48
Lightning       38,         42,        45,        48
Wintergrasp  46,         50,        54,        58
Heal                40,         43,        46,        49
Inferno            17           17        18          19
Fireball           40            41        42         43

As you can see across the board a huge increase of 30 spellpower only gave me 3-4 extra damage and/or healing. The same was true for dexterity and str. If you want to dump 40 extra str/dex/magic into a chracter thinking that you are going to get huge increases in damage you might want to think again. I find that if you want your party to really do more damage then stack just enough str/dex/magic to get the spells that you need then focus on your mana or stamina pools. More spells and more sustainables make a much bigger difference then a measly few extra damage per spell.  
 

[Guurzak]

um, that 30 sp changed your single target damage by 10-12 points, not 3-4. Plus it reduced the chance that enemies will resist a spell completely. Plus, with high magic each lyrium potion restores much more mana, obviating the effects of low willpower.



You may find that a high will/low magic build is fun and effective for you. But the opposite is definitely viable too.

[DragoonKain3]

Opposite is actually better (max magic and base wil) for your typical spellslinging mage, since lyrium pots are dirt cheap to make.



Sure, each point of magic only effectively raises your base spell damage by 1% (very small), but in the end when you're running at least 100+ of them (thus spells doing 2.0x or more damage), you'll be 'frontloading' your spells with great efficacy that most battles will be done before you run out of mana.



And in the rare cases you do run out of mana, the fact that magic increases the effectiveness of pots offsets your lack of WIL. Even one lesser lyrium pot at 100+ spellpower would give you around 100+ mana, which is equivalent to 20 WIL points, and you only spend 3.5 silver each pot!



Tack on harder resist checks (so your CC actually sticks) and the fact that sustains don't help your typical mage (plus the fact that you can turn them on after you expended mana to 'double up' on mana), and I see really very little use for WIL just like I see very little use for CON. If they increased mana/health regen, maybe they'll be of use, but the fact that you only gain 5 mana/health makes them the least powerful stats in the game.

[abadomen]

So...how can you get over 250 damage? Is it possible with a warrior?

[Colma]

I have to agree with the OP, spell power has incredibly diminishing returns.



I had thought about this too and played around with my super mage with spell might and Morrigan just spec'd for cc. I attacked genlocks with both characters at level 22.



My mage build ended with game with 121 spell power and was getting CoC damage in the mid to high 60's, a few times damage was in the low 70's while Morrigan with a whopping 56 spell power was averaging in the mid 50's (without any +% cold damage gear on either character). A difference of 65 spell power yielded an average 15 more damage.



And on nightmare enemies still resisted spells about 25% of the time, whether I had spell might on or not.

[Colma]

abadomen wrote...

So...how can you get over 250 damage? Is it possible with a warrior?

sorry for double post...

The sleep/horror combo can manage 250 damage. For warrior the berserker skill that uses stamina as a damage bonus will get it for you, as well as arrow of slaying for warriors or rogues.

[abadomen]

Colma wrote...

abadomen wrote...

So...how can you get over 250 damage? Is it possible with a warrior?

sorry for double post...

The sleep/horror combo can manage 250 damage. For warrior the berserker skill that uses stamina as a damage bonus will get it for you, as well as arrow of slaying for warriors or rogues.

Thanks!

I was playing a warrior with dual wield...and couldn't get a high damage...I suppose because of the DEX bug.

Will be playing another Warrior as a dwarf and try for berserker!

[Bluesmith]

Different spells have different coefficients. This data is readily accessible. Why not just post it?



E.g.,

Lightning = 0.3

Fireball = 0.3

Flame Blast = 0.45

Tempest = 0.1

Cone of Cold = 0.34



and so on

[Asherett]

Bluesmith wrote...

Different spells have different coefficients. This data is readily accessible. Why not just post it?

E.g.,
Lightning = 0.3
Fireball = 0.3
Flame Blast = 0.45
Tempest = 0.1
Cone of Cold = 0.34

and so on

If it is "readily accessible", what's your source? Because it isn't in the game anywhere as far as I can see?

[Bluesmith]

Script\\_Ability_Scripts\\Spells\\spell_constants_h.nss

Script\\_Ability_Scripts\\Talents\\talent_constants_h.nss

[rumination888]

Edrick Sterling wrote...

As you can see across the board a huge increase of 30 spellpower only gave me 3-4 extra damage and/or healing. The same was true for dexterity and str. If you want to dump 40 extra str/dex/magic into a chracter thinking that you are going to get huge increases in damage you might want to think again. I find that if you want your party to really do more damage then stack just enough str/dex/magic to get the spells that you need then focus on your mana or stamina pools. More spells and more sustainables make a much bigger difference then a measly few extra damage per spell.  
 

Wasn't true for dexterity and strength on my character.
Weapons have their own coefficients.
For example, daggers use 85% of your attributes, 2-handed mauls use 125% of your attributes.
Dual-weilding lowers your damage coefficient even further.
The damage displayed on your character sheet appears to be a DPS measurement rather than an actual damage measurement. Attack speed modifiers increase/decrease the number displayed.

[Colma]

That's nice if you have the pc version, I play on the 360.

[Bluesmith]

Colma wrote...

That's nice if you have the pc version, I play on the 360.

Alright, let me break it down for you.

Spell Mechanics
As a case study, let's look at Winter's Grasp.  WG works as follows:
1. Determine Damage. Damage = (100.0f + Caster's Spellpower) * C, where C = WG's SP coefficient. All spells have coefficients that vary from spell-to-spell. WG's coeff is pretty standard at 0.36. C = 0.3 or 0.4 is typical of direct damage spells.
2. Store damage and damage type in an effect wrapper. WG has damage type cold.
3. Apply this effect to the target. As part of this, we can set hit penalties (or bonuses), etc.

What about the freeze?
1. Adjust duration based on two factors. First is party size: duration is increased relative to party size (smaller = longer). Second is the target's rank: duration is modified by a % value determined by the creature's rank.
2. Determine freeze chance. First, set the bar to either (1 - 0.05*target_level) or 0.05, whichever is higher (this means a level 15 mob will have a .bar of .25) Then, compare that bar to a random number. If the random number is less than the bar, freeze. Otherwise, slow. 
2a. Freeze duration is (5.0 + adjust (step 1))*0.5.
2b. Slow duration is 5.0, and the penalty itself is 0.8.

That's basically it. It is slightly more complex than this (stacking effect removal, hit check), but in general this should help you understand how spells work.

All of the values used (base freeze duration, slow penalty, etc.) are all constants called from  spell_constants_h.nss. Each spell has different constants set for the various values needed to play out its effects.

Spell Constants
Here are a few coefficients for some of the more commonly used spells.
Flame Blast: 0.45
Fireball: 0.3
Inferno: 0.4
Shock: 0.4
Lightning: 0.3
Tempest: 0.1
Winter's Grasp: 0.36
Cone of Cold: 0.34

All of these values are located in spell_constants_h.nss.

Modifié par Bluesmith, 25 novembre 2009 - 01:33 .

[Paragon78]

Colma wrote...

I have to agree with the OP, spell power has incredibly diminishing returns.

I had thought about this too and played around with my super mage with spell might and Morrigan just spec'd for cc. I attacked genlocks with both characters at level 22.

My mage build ended with game with 121 spell power and was getting CoC damage in the mid to high 60's, a few times damage was in the low 70's while Morrigan with a whopping 56 spell power was averaging in the mid 50's (without any +% cold damage gear on either character). A difference of 65 spell power yielded an average 15 more damage.

And on nightmare enemies still resisted spells about 25% of the time, whether I had spell might on or not.

This is basicly what I got. I have the ps3 version and pc version. I loaded up the dev console on my pc version and started playing with all 3 classes, changing weapons and spells. Trying to see how much more damage I got in general and it just was not very much. In no way did I ever get double damage from any spell even after increasing spell power up to 150.  Do what you will with those numbers but in my personal opinion you get more bang for your buck by being able to cast more spells. I would love to hear a good argument for stacking damage stats , like say str or spell power over willpower. I just do not see the damage increase.

[konfeta]

Look at it this way, every other stat is utterly worthless to a Mage. If you legitimately run out of mana on base willpower before the encounter is convincingly won, you are doing something wrong - there are just so many ways to regenerate mana without touching pots. And even then, a single crafting session for 60-70 Lesser Lyrium Potions is enough to last you the whole game for tough fights with plenty left over.

So, might as well stack spellpower for a ~50% increase on spell damage and longer duration disables (at least on Cone of Cold). Staff damage boost is another nice one.

Overall, stacking spellpower means you win fights earlier, and your staff actually does a decent job of picking of survivors that your party members are temporarily indisposed to deal with. For hard boss fights, it's not a crime to have to drink 3-4 pots total.


***

God, I need to stop believing other people sometimes. I just tested it. My Fireball, with +20% fire damage and 173 spellpower does about 100 damage initial, and 20 damage per tick afterwards.

Just to contrast it, I stripped my mage butt-naked to 107 base spellpower, and my fireball lost 40 damage, while cone of cold lost 25. Mana Clash lost 200 damage (still one shot the poor emmissary, this spell is too rofl).


So, hell yes, stacking spellpower is worth it. Where the hell did I dig up the puny 50% damage increase from...?

Modifié par konfeta, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:37 .

[DragoonKain3]

@OP
Note that all your numbers match up to how spellpower affects damage.

48 spellpower over 18 spellpower is roughly a 25% increase in damage (148/118 = ~1.25)

Arcane bolt at 18 sp = 38 * 1.25 increase = 48 damage, which is what you got. Same with every spell but fireball/inferno, but those are DoTs, in which the increase in damage is spread out over the duration of the spell.

So yes, 150 spellpower means 2.5x damage in comparison to zero spellpower.

And really, the reason why you stack MAG rather than WIL is because you can EASILY and CHEAPLY duplicate WIL's effects by making lyrium potions. You cannot achieve high spellpower in the same way.

Think about it... a lvl 22 character has typically 68 points to spend. Assuming that character only gets the minimum MAG for spell trees (36 is the most I see), that means you only spend 19-20 points in MAG depending on origin. So assuming human, you have 48 points, and assuming you pour that all into WIL, that will mean 240 mana.

And what's 240 mana? 2 lesser lyrium pots drunk by a max magic mage. You've essentially spent 48 points of attributes (which are HARD to come by) that can be easily duplicated by spending 7 silver (which is chump change no matter how you look at it).

And the killer? Vast majority of battles don't even require you to drink pots at base WIL, assuming you go max MAG, since it will be over before you run out of mana. Which not only means you don't spend any money in vast majority of battles since you don't have to drink any pots, but also that every point put into WIL is essentially 'wasted' in battles where you did not dip into the pool of mana given by WIL



For the record, damage given by weapons usually go by the formula...

(W*F + A* W*M) * C + B - A

Where...
W = listead weapon daamge
F = fluctuation on weapon damage, as the listed is the least amount of weapon damage. It can go higher, like 1.5x the listed value, depending on weapon

A = attribute modifier. In case there are two attributes (like longbows), this is (A1 + A2) /2, where A1 and A2 are the two attributes
W = Wield style modifier, which is randomly chosen between two extremes depending on wield style. Offhand weapons are 0 to 0.25, mainhand DW (or offhand w/ DW training) is 0.25 to 0.50, and 1H/2H is 0.5  to 0.75.
M = listed weapon 'STR modifier'. For example, mauls has 1.25 modifier

C = crit bonus, if its a critical hit. Normal is 1.5, max is 2.0

B = bonus damage, like +8 damage from Berserk or +2 damage from Rose of Thorns

A = armor of enemy, though this fluctuates as well and never static

[Asherett]

konfeta wrote...

Look at it this way, every other stat is utterly worthless to a Mage. If you legitimately run out of mana on base willpower before the encounter is convincingly won, you are doing something wrong - there are just so many ways to regenerate mana without touching pots.

Realizing I'm going rather off topic here, but would you write up some of these "so many ways"? I'm having immense mana problems in -every- fight (my AW mainchar empties her mana pool with 1-2 casts), so would love to know how to deal with this.

<rant>

I'm really wondering if AW is broken, or if it's just intended to be played vastly different from how I play it (massive armor, 2hander). With all my sustained powers active (combat magic, shimmering shield, arcane shield, spell wisp, cleansing aura), I am pretty much able to cast Stinging Swarm and maybe one lightning before I'm OOM. And thanks to the lovely "Insufficient Mana" bug with Dark Sustenance I can't use that to regain mana either.

Wynne isn't much better, again the sustained auras (half of which are turned off when she reaches 0 mana for some reason) sends mana drain to such insane levels she's OOM after 5-6 spells.

<rant off>

[DragoonKain3]

Shimmering Shield is your problem. It drains mana while on (quite quickly too, which is equivalent to -10 mana regen), though in the PC version, it does not turn off even if you run out of mana (broken). Which means while you're still invulnerable for an indefinite amount of time.



A workaround to this is using blood magic, so you can still be nigh invulnerable indefnintely and still cast spells. That's why AW/BM is OP, at least in the PC. Of course in consoles, a lot of people are underwhelemed by this combo because SS does turn off there, which I imagine will be the case when they fix it in a future patch for the PC.



BTW, the insufficient mana 'bug' of dark sustenance (and mana drain at that) is precisely because of Shimmering Shield's bug of not turning off when you're OOM. Don't exploit SS (ie. keeping it on even when you're OOM), and dark sustenance/mana drain will not bug out on you.





In any case, the proper way of using sustains is that you don't run any sustains until you expend an amount of mana equivalent to the upkeep. Turning on a sustain before you expend any mana means you're just wasting this mana that could've been otherwised for other purposes. The upkeep is there to specifically to PUNISH 'turn on all sustains before combat' type of gameplay, since the devs have said as much that they want TACTICAL use of them, not STRATEGIC use.



This applies to Wynne as much as it applies to any mage (or even warriors/rogues with their own sustains). Do you really need Cleansing Aura/Haste on all the time, especially both on at the same time when both drain mana as well? Only turn on Cleansing Aura when you've got multiple people who are in need of healing, or Haste only when you don't need to use your mana for support, and you'll go a long way to keeping your mana up at all times.



Besides, in the beginning of battle, you're not in immediate fire, so defensive sustains aren't so hot and only turning it on goes a long way to mana management. Also, the max magic/base wil part applies more to the typical spellslinging mage (aka max magic), not AWs who run around in plate with ~50% fatigue, who effectively cut their mana pool by 1/3 already (and that's why I think they suck apart from SS exploit, since if you have a proper tank, you don't need plate since you won't get hit for the most part).

[Nooneyouknow13]

Asherett wrote...

konfeta wrote...

Look at it this way, every other stat is utterly worthless to a Mage. If you legitimately run out of mana on base willpower before the encounter is convincingly won, you are doing something wrong - there are just so many ways to regenerate mana without touching pots.

Realizing I'm going rather off topic here, but would you write up some of these "so many ways"? I'm having immense mana problems in -every- fight (my AW mainchar empties her mana pool with 1-2 casts), so would love to know how to deal with this.



I'm really wondering if AW is broken, or if it's just intended to be played vastly different from how I play it (massive armor, 2hander). With all my sustained powers active (combat magic, shimmering shield, arcane shield, spell wisp, cleansing aura), I am pretty much able to cast Stinging Swarm and maybe one lightning before I'm OOM. And thanks to the lovely "Insufficient Mana" bug with Dark Sustenance I can't use that to regain mana either.

Wynne isn't much better, again the sustained auras (half of which are turned off when she reaches 0 mana for some reason) sends mana drain to such insane levels she's OOM after 5-6 spells.

Arcane Bolt is cheap even at 100% fatigue, and has a very low cooldown, and won't sheathe your weapon.  I live din Combat Magic mode the moment I got Fade Shroud, the regen was more than enough to offset the fatigue from combat magic and massive armor.  Since I wasn't pot spamming, I found that I could cast much longer in combat magic than out of it after Fade Shroud, providing I didn't try to chain stuff like Mass Paralyze and Chain Lightning back to back.

My entire game plan was basically stay in combat magic 100% of the time, hit Blood Magic->blood wound->blood sacrifice a ranger pet, deativate blood magic, swing 2 hander, cast Arcane Bolt on cooldown unless I was mid swing, single target CCs if anything escaped blood wound, repeat when Blood wound comes off cooldown. I very rarely used Shimmering Shield, and never once eno****ered a not enough mana error on Dark Sustenanace.

[Asherett]

Thanks for the interesting replies here guys. I'll certainly check out your suggestions DragoonKain3. I have noticed that my character is well-nigh invulnerable (except to massive physical damage, high dragon mouthgrab >.<) with those effects up.



I'm quite puzzled to hear that SS staying on at 0 mana is a BUG, Of all the abilities I mentioned on my AW (combat magic, shimmering shield, arcane shield, spell wisp, cleansing aura) CA is the ONLY one that turns off at 0 mana. All the other ones stay up, even though according to the description numbers they should all drain mana? For Wynne, the only one that stays up at 0 mana is Rock Armor. Should they really all go off at 0, or am I missing something separating them in the descriptions? They all have upkeep and fatigue, is there a hidden "drains mana" stat?

[Darth_Shizz]

Asherett wrote...

konfeta wrote...

Look at it this way, every other stat is utterly worthless to a Mage. If you legitimately run out of mana on base willpower before the encounter is convincingly won, you are doing something wrong - there are just so many ways to regenerate mana without touching pots.

Realizing I'm going rather off topic here, but would you write up some of these "so many ways"? I'm having immense mana problems in -every- fight (my AW mainchar empties her mana pool with 1-2 casts), so would love to know how to deal with this.



I'm really wondering if AW is broken, or if it's just intended to be played vastly different from how I play it (massive armor, 2hander). With all my sustained powers active (combat magic, shimmering shield, arcane shield, spell wisp, cleansing aura), I am pretty much able to cast Stinging Swarm and maybe one lightning before I'm OOM. And thanks to the lovely "Insufficient Mana" bug with Dark Sustenance I can't use that to regain mana either.

Wynne isn't much better, again the sustained auras (half of which are turned off when she reaches 0 mana for some reason) sends mana drain to such insane levels she's OOM after 5-6 spells.

What's wrong with casting spells before activating sustainables? 0_o

[Asherett]

Darth_Shizz wrote...
What's wrong with casting spells before activating sustainables? 0_o

Well... I had just assumed that since sustained spells "reserved" a set amount of mana, there was no further drain except the fatigue the sustainable inflicted. Given this assumption I couldn't see any reason whatsoever not to have all sustainables up from the get-go, since you'd only waste time activating them later and the reserved mana would be the same anyway. Apparently there is additionally some kind of hidden "drains mana per second" stat that I didn't know about. Both the manual and ingame info is extremely vague on this point, I think. Can anyone clarify exactly how sustainables work?

Spell Wisp seems like a very smart sustainable to have up at all times to me (you wouldn't want to cast spells before you have it up at least), or am I mistaken here too?

Modifié par Asherett, 25 novembre 2009 - 04:34 .

[Darth_Shizz]

Asherett wrote...

Darth_Shizz wrote...
What's wrong with casting spells before activating sustainables? 0_o

Well... I had just assumed that since sustained spells "reserved" a set amount of mana, there was no further drain except the fatigue the sustainable inflicted. Given this assumption I couldn't see any reason whatsoever not to have all sustainables up from the get-go, since you'd only waste time activating them later and the reserved mana would be the same anyway. Apparently there is additionally some kind of hidden "drains mana per second" stat that I didn't know about. Both the manual and ingame info is extremely vague on this point, I think. Can anyone clarify exactly how sustainables work?

Spell Wisp seems like a very smart sustainable to have up at all times to me (you wouldn't want to cast spells before you have it up at least), or am I mistaken here too?

As far as I know, the only affect a sustainable has on stamina/mana pool, is reducing its roof. On top of that, it'll add x% to fatigue. Thing is, they cost nothing to activate. On top of that, they don't tend to reset the swing timer, so unless you're a dual-wielding AW or heavily hasted, chances are you'll lose out on no attacks. At least this is how my 2h warrior works out.

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 25 novembre 2009 - 04:38 .

[DragoonKain3]

Well... I had just assumed that since sustained spells "reserved" a set amount of mana, there was no further drain except the fatigue the sustainable inflicted. Given this assumption I couldn't see any reason whatsoever not to have all sustainables up from the get-go, since you'd only waste time activating them later and the reserved mana would be the same anyway.

Note that sustains only does two things...



1) increase your fatigue by a set value (usually only adds up to 1 or 2 extra mana, so no biggie)



2) decrease your maximum mana/stamina value - meaning that if you say, cast crushing prison for 60 mana at full mana before you activate telekinetic weapons (upkeep 50), then you effectively negated the upkeep part of sustaining telekinetic weapons.



Ie. you have 200 base mana, and lets ignore fatigue now. If you activate telekinetic weapons before you cast crushing prison, you would go 200/200 --> decreased to 150/150 because of upkeep --> 90/150 mana left after crushing prison.



If you cast crushing prison first, you would go 200 mana --> 140/200 mana after casting crushing prison -> 140/150 mana after casting telekinetic weapons.



See the enormous difference? That's why if you manage your mana effectively (including good use of rejuvs/spellbloom/etc.), you shouldn't run out of it even at base WIL.

. Apparently there is additionally some kind of hidden "drains mana per second" stat that I didn't know about. Both the manual and ingame info is extremely vague on this point, I think. Can anyone clarify exactly how sustainables work?

Some very powerful sustains impose a mana drain. These spells should turn off once you're OOM, and AFAIK they all do barring shimmering shield.



And for the record, I find Cleansing Aura to deactivate.once you're OOM. At least my Wynne does.

Spell Wisp seems like a very smart sustainable to have up at all times to me (you wouldn't want to cast spells before you have it up at least), or am I mistaken here too?

Spell Wisp is one of the few spells in which the effect is very good (5% increase in damage no matter what your spellpower is right now) and the upkeep is almost negligble (30 mana is around an arcane bolt + lightning).



Note also that the increase in damage is a straight up 5%, while the effective increase on your mana cost is 5% AT THE MOST, so you will at the very least break even on effectiveness/mana ratio. So whats the use if the effectiveness/mana ratio is the same? You get that 5% increase immediately, thus 'frontloading' spells.



That said, that 5% increase in frontloading usually means jack to your average trash mob, since you'd probably wipe them out even if you didn't use spell wisp. On bosses, that 5% increase in damage is huge as they have ginormous hp values so it will help, but spell wisp is usually not worth anything below reds.

[Dark83]

Uh. You guys do realize that Combat Magic is +50% fatigue? That's 7 extra for Arcane Bolt, 25 extra for Stinging Swarm, 10 extra for Lightning.

This is just the +50% from Combat Magic alone. Not even with boots or gloves on.