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The Dumbing Down Effect


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#76
Lakan Suko

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mjharper wrote...

piemanz wrote...

I love the RPG elements in both games. I think the difference with some people is that for them the "RPG" part of the game is defined by the inventory system.

Absoluetly. Some people seem to think that 'RPG' stands for Rinventory Pmanagement Gsystem or Roverly Pcomplicated Gskilltrees.

Well I certainly don't want my hand to be held, at all. A game is a game, not an interactive movie. As well, I believe what was asked is to fix the inventory and skill trees, not make them complicated, like your misinformed generalization implies.

Also, fail much on the acronym joke? "Gsytem" is not a word, neither is "pcomplicated", lol, that was horrible...

#77
furryrage59

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mjharper wrote...

piemanz wrote...

I love the RPG elements in both games. I think the difference with some people is that for them the "RPG" part of the game is defined by the inventory system.

Absoluetly. Some people seem to think that 'RPG' stands for Rinventory Pmanagement Gsystem or Roverly Pcomplicated Gskilltrees.


Loot has been a part of rpgs for as long as i can remember, literally.

You new fans seem to think this is a new trend or something.

#78
Ziggeh

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Naughty Bear wrote...

Mass Effect 3 demo has less chocies in what you say and it has me worried.

Wut?

#79
Naughty Bear

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Ziggeh wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Mass Effect 3 demo has less chocies in what you say and it has me worried.

Wut?


Was that hard for you to understand?

There. Was. Only. Two. Dialogue. Choices.

The rest was auto, i'm sure the developers said that there are more options to choose in what to say. But i am still worried.

#80
SmokePants

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I've always found the "dumbing down" argument, when applied to almost anything, to be in itself "dumb". Most often, when developers excise features for a sequel, it's because they didn't actually work to begin with or were dead ends. I would hate to live in a world where no one was allowed to trim the fat for fear of being accused of "dumbing it down".

#81
AJRimmsey

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furryrage59 wrote...

Loot has been a part of rpgs for as long as i can remember, literally.

You new fans seem to think this is a new trend or something.


sitting at a friends house watching him xbox skyrim i saw a comparison.

he wasnt looting,what got him erect was a long corridor/dungeon with nasties in it,and him run-slash-running with blood spurting left and right.

running right past he chests ????

I was almost manic so i left :lol:

#82
Aaleel

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Whether it's movies, video games, movies, companies are trying to make things that appeal to more audiences. I hate the term dumbing down, because it infers that the people in some of these groups they're going after are dumb.

But like in ME1 you had to talk to your squad members to be able to get loyalty missions. You had to go through dialogue and make conversation choices. In ME2 no matter if you talked to your squad or not to get to know them, they'd eventually come with their hand out, no need to engage in dialogue. Now we have action mode to answer for you.

You could customize your squad's armor, customize your weapons in ME1, but for people who don't like spending time comparing weapons/armor or specs, they went to the "iconic" look for party members, and no weapon mods in ME2.

You had longer missions in larger areas in ME1 where you had to do a lot of legwork, either talking to people or driving around in the Mako. ME2 for the most part the shuttle dropped right in so you could get right to the action, and picked you right up after it was done.

I could cite some other things, but I think that's enough. They pretty much cut down the things that require comparing stats, reading specs for upgrades or upgrade categories, or engaging in conversation. Basically they upped the Action/Down time ratio. Which the story greatly suffered for in ME2 IMHO.

I just wish they could find some compromise instead of just cutting things completely so people who still enjoy those things can still do them.

Modifié par Aaleel, 19 février 2012 - 02:02 .


#83
mjharper

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Lakan Suko wrote...

mjharper wrote...

piemanz wrote...

I love the RPG elements in both games. I think the difference with some people is that for them the "RPG" part of the game is defined by the inventory system.

Absoluetly. Some people seem to think that 'RPG' stands for Rinventory Pmanagement Gsystem or Roverly Pcomplicated Gskilltrees.

Well I certainly don't want my hand to be held, at all. A game is a game, not an interactive movie. As well, I believe what was asked is to fix the inventory and skill trees, not make them complicated, like your misinformed generalization implies.

Also, fail much on the acronym joke? "Gsytem" is not a word, neither is "pcomplicated", lol, that was horrible...

Neither is Rinventory or Gskilltrees.

If i have to explain the joke, it was forcing things like 'inventory management system' into 'RPG'. It wasn't meant to work.

#84
Lakan Suko

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Ziggeh wrote...

LenaMarie wrote...

That is the new audience around here, its painfully obvious.

Sweeping generalisations are always so accurate. It's eerie.

Well the community here, rather, the one now has little to defend itself...

#85
LenaMarie

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furryrage59 wrote...

mjharper wrote...

piemanz wrote...

I love the RPG elements in both games. I think the difference with some people is that for them the "RPG" part of the game is defined by the inventory system.

Absoluetly. Some people seem to think that 'RPG' stands for Rinventory Pmanagement Gsystem or Roverly Pcomplicated Gskilltrees.


Loot has been a part of rpgs for as long as i can remember, literally.

You new fans seem to think this is a new trend or something.


This. I've been told RPGs even in the 80s had loot too. However I suspect people will realize loot isnt a new concept when Diablo 3 comes out and people find out its filled with loot.

#86
Ziggeh

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furryrage59 wrote...

Loot has been a part of rpgs for as long as i can remember, literally.

Isometric projection was a staple of the genre until it wasn't. Having previously been used, or even successful doesn't immediately apply value.

That's not to say it's without value but at this point I would call inventory a preference, one which personally I'd be happy to never see again.

#87
Naughty Bear

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AJRimmsey wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

Loot has been a part of rpgs for as long as i can remember, literally.

You new fans seem to think this is a new trend or something.


sitting at a friends house watching him xbox skyrim i saw a comparison.

he wasnt looting,what got him erect was a long corridor/dungeon with nasties in it,and him run-slash-running with blood spurting left and right.

running right past he chests ????

I was almost manic so i left :lol:


My cousin loves shooters but, like me, we are both hoarders in Skyrim. Anything that isn't nailed down we will take it.

#88
Beefcake9000

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I loved ME1&2 and I'm looking forward to 3, but I hate the whole Action/RPG/Story mode nonsense. I see it as a true case of 'dumbing down' and a waste of development time. It's completely unnecessary and frankly an insult to the player base.

Action Mode is essentially the game without player input into the development of the story. This is the third game in the series, not the first, and the unique stories we've built across the last 2 titles are what most of us are looking forward to playing out in 3. But even if a new player was to jump on board for this game, given that it's 18 rated, at least in my region, are we really supposed to believe that a person needs to be hand-held through a dialogue choice wheel? Do they really think people are that thick they can't pick between 2 or 3 choices in a convo? The ME series was built upon player choice - this mode removes that. I seriously cannot wrap my head around the thinking behind this. By removing that choice you're turning this into a third-person shooter with a skill tree. One of major appeals and selling points of this series was having the ability to create your own unique story. Why put in a mode that removes that strong point of the series? It baffles me.

Then we have Story mode, which is just RPG mode set to super easy. We know what Difficulty options are, Bioware! If someone is smart enough to play this game, they'll be smart enough to go to the options and lower the difficulty if they're finding it a bit tough. I mean, come on -you could even just have a screen at the start to set difficulty before you begin!

I know I can just ignore it, hit RPG Mode and forget about it, and given the feedback on that forum survey where something like 90% of all users played RPG mode, I guess most people will. I just think it's insulting that someone in EA or Bioware or whoever, really had such a low opinion of their player base that this crap was implemented. I worry that it sets a dangerous precedent for future Bioware titles, where freedom of choice is increasingly restricted in order not to alienate the 'COD Crowd'. But that's crap! Even the COD Crowd can learn to pick a choice on a wheel and see what happens. They may even enjoy it! They may even be inspired to seek out other games where they can determine the course of the story!

TLDR:

Games dumb down when developers stop trying to challenge the players.

#89
Ziggeh

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Naughty Bear wrote...

Was that hard for you to understand?

Sorry, I clearly misread that there, I thought you were saying that Mass Effect 3 itself had less choice. I even managed to quote the word I skipped over. Go me.

#90
brfritos

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N00blet666 wrote...

ME1's weapon system sucked. All the weapons were the same they just had a different number next to them. The weapons in ME3 are actually different weapons not the same weapon with a different number.


Are you sure?

Carnifex I
http://cloud.steampo...54390959F896AB/

Paladin II
http://cloud.steampo...4AFF368D0A04CA/

I'm a fan of ME1, but I liked a lot the weapon system in ME2, everyone of them is different from each other and more important, everyone of them are used differently.
The only thing lacking is mods, the weapons in ME1 change depending what mod you attach to them (until you put your hands in the Spectre weapons, then is a boredon of carnage).

#91
Lakan Suko

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mjharper wrote...

If i have to explain the joke, it was forcing things like 'inventory management system' into 'RPG'. It wasn't meant to work.

Perhaps it wasn't meant to be posted as well.

#92
Ziggeh

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Naughty Bear wrote...

Anything that isn't nailed down we will take it.

This has actually started to become a serious problem for me. Skyrim has so mcuh crap that's not nailed down that I'm barely out of Whiterun because I have to lug everything back and forth.

#93
mjharper

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furryrage59 wrote...

mjharper wrote...

piemanz wrote...

I love the RPG elements in both games. I think the difference with some people is that for them the "RPG" part of the game is defined by the inventory system.

Absoluetly. Some people seem to think that 'RPG' stands for Rinventory Pmanagement Gsystem or Roverly Pcomplicated Gskilltrees.


Loot has been a part of rpgs for as long as i can remember, literally.

You new fans seem to think this is a new trend or something.

New fans? I'm nearly 40, have been playing RPGs on paper since I was about 10, and advidly collected Fighting Fantasy books as a kid. I'm well aware how integrated loot is into RPGs. But that doesn't mean I have to like it, condone it, or expect that it should be a part of all RPGs.

Back on topic, the inventory system in ME1 was horrible. You collected mountains of junk and couldn't even get an overview of it unless you visited a shop. Central criticisms of both The Witcher 2, Skyrim and Amalur have been how bad their inventory management systems are. And ME2 doesn't have one at all. Does the relative lack of loot mean that ME2 is a bad Role Playing Game? I think not. It just means that I don't have a broken inventory system getting in the way of my Role Playing.

Modifié par mjharper, 19 février 2012 - 02:35 .


#94
mjharper

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Lakan Suko wrote...

mjharper wrote...

If i have to explain the joke, it was forcing things like 'inventory management system' into 'RPG'. It wasn't meant to work.

Perhaps it wasn't meant to be posted as well.

You've convinced me. Adding it to my signature.

#95
Naughty Bear

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Ziggeh wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Was that hard for you to understand?

Sorry, I clearly misread that there, I thought you were saying that Mass Effect 3 itself had less choice. I even managed to quote the word I skipped over. Go me.


I can't tell if your being sarcastic. Are you trying to start an arguement?

#96
Get Magna Carter

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We can hope that the RPG mode is not dumbed down
so anyone who wants it dumbed down can use another mode

#97
Ziggeh

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Naughty Bear wrote...
I can't tell if your being sarcastic. Are you trying to start an arguement?

Nope, I literally misread your statement. And then apologised. I know, it's so rare on the internet it looks bizarre.

#98
AJRimmsey

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its all really a moot point,dumbing down/streamlining is also coming to console gamers soon.
sooner than you might think.

I havent seen a game in years that didnt look and feel like "<insert game name> with guns"
and as for "open world",somewhere along the line that became "mostly open world with invisible walls"

unless you are a small company like chaos concepts or kalypso,there simply isnt any love going into games today.
developing these days is like prostitution...get in and out quick and grab the money,the mess left ?..let others clean it up.

#99
didymos1120

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SmokePants wrote...

I've always found the "dumbing down" argument, when applied to almost anything, to be in itself "dumb".


A big problem is that a lot of the time, it's not even an argument, but a lazy cliche people throw out when they want to label some change as bad.  Some people do bother to actually back it up with an explanation as to why they view a given change as "dumbing down", but they're fewer than I'd like.

#100
LenaMarie

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Ziggeh wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Anything that isn't nailed down we will take it.

This has actually started to become a serious problem for me. Skyrim has so mcuh crap that's not nailed down that I'm barely out of Whiterun because I have to lug everything back and forth.


And people would riot if Bethesda even asked "should we do away with inventory systems in the next Elder Scrolls". Maybe you hate inventory and dont like being able to take everything that isnt nailed down, and Im not saying thats not valid but it has been a staple of RPGs for ages and alot of fun for RPGers especially those whom play Rogue type characters. Inventory systems can be steamlined but still good, Witcher games showed this.