301 réponses à ce sujet

[Naughty Bear]

Ziggeh wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...
I can't tell if your being sarcastic. Are you trying to start an arguement?

Nope, I literally misread your statement. And then apologised. I know, it's so rare on the internet it looks bizarre.

Yeah, it is bizarre alright, i think your the first person who has apologised to me on the internet. I accept.

Same, i can not leave any town or city without entering some cavern and just taking everything from small bits of meat to crappy armour.

My house has each chest chock full of rubbish i don't need and i will sell them. Eventually. But i keep thinking i might need it.

[BatmanPWNS]

brfritos wrote...

N00blet666 wrote...

ME1's weapon system sucked. All the weapons were the same they just had a different number next to them. The weapons in ME3 are actually different weapons not the same weapon with a different number.

Are you sure?

Carnifex I
http://cloud.steampo...54390959F896AB/

Paladin II
http://cloud.steampo...4AFF368D0A04CA/

I'm a fan of ME1, but I liked a lot the weapon system in ME2, everyone of them is different from each other and more important, everyone of them are used differently.
The only thing lacking is mods, the weapons in ME1 change depending what mod you attach to them (until you put your hands in the Spectre weapons, then is a boredon of carnage).

ZOMG, catering to the copy and paste fans. Pre-order cancelled!

[furryrage59]

AJRimmsey wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

Loot has been a part of rpgs for as long as i can remember, literally.

You new fans seem to think this is a new trend or something.

sitting at a friends house watching him xbox skyrim i saw a comparison.

he wasnt looting,what got him erect was a long corridor/dungeon with nasties in it,and him run-slash-running with blood spurting left and right.

running right past he chests ????

I was almost manic so i left

I saw a guy do that on one of the letplays, couldn't stnd it.

Seemed.....wrong somehow.

[Naughty Bear]

furryrage59 wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

Loot has been a part of rpgs for as long as i can remember, literally.

You new fans seem to think this is a new trend or something.

sitting at a friends house watching him xbox skyrim i saw a comparison.

he wasnt looting,what got him erect was a long corridor/dungeon with nasties in it,and him run-slash-running with blood spurting left and right.

running right past he chests ????

I was almost manic so i left

I saw a guy do that on one of the letplays, couldn't stnd it.

Seemed.....wrong somehow.

Your not normal if you don't want to shove everything you see that is not nailed down into your pocket.

[Lakan Suko]

mjharper wrote...

Lakan Suko wrote...

mjharper wrote...

If i have to explain the joke, it was forcing things like 'inventory management system' into 'RPG'. It wasn't meant to work.

Perhaps it wasn't meant to be posted as well.

You've convinced me. Adding it to my signature.

Bwahaha, I mean, if you wish

[brfritos]

didymos1120 wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

I've always found the "dumbing down" argument, when applied to almost anything, to be in itself "dumb".

A big problem is that a lot of the time, it's not even an argument, but a lazy cliche people throw out when they want to label some change as bad.  Some people do bother to actually back it up with an explanation as to why they view a given change as "dumbing down", but they're fewer than I'd like.

Yes, the "dumb down" argument is a cliche, but I wished Bioware replace their line of thinking of change = removal.
I mean, look at the weapons and equipment in ME3, they look very promising, a modified, refited and evolved version of what've seen in ME1, combined with the simplicity and easy of use of ME2.

Instead of removing the features, they could work on them, so you don't need to doing it for one game, removing it in the sequel, then re-working based on the first game for the third.

[eye basher]

anlk92 wrote...

LenaMarie wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

LenaMarie wrote...

Case in point? They are the same people who buy Call of Duty Religiously even though it is the same crap regurgitated back at people, in CoD 3 they did not even bother making new assets, people did complain but in the end these shooter fans bought it up in droves ensuring CoD 4 will probably be even less revolutionary, then they talk about people enjoying ME 1 having no taste. Just hilarious.

That straw man was looking at you funny.

That is the new audience around here, its painfully obvious. No RPer would ever say with a straight face ME 1 was bad or dialogue heavy  = bad.

I don't think anyone here thinks that way. Especially since ME2 had much more dialogue than the first game.

I can say with a straight face ME1 is bad the first time you play it is fun sure but the next 10 times you beat it the fun factor starts going down fast.

[brfritos]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

ZOMG, catering to the copy and paste fans. Pre-order cancelled!

Ouch, that hurt man...
Pre-order cancelled due to bulling in BSN! 

[Il Divo]

LenaMarie wrote...

I find it really funny this "new generation" of Bioware fan will say things like ME1 was bad, and presumably Bioware's older games too. There are many examples of RPGs still selling (Witcher 2 anyone?), the people who think "moar shooter!" and less boring 'rpg and cutscenes" are the ones who have no concept of what is good.

Case in point? They are the same people who buy Call of Duty Religiously even though it is the same crap regurgitated back at people, in CoD 3 they did not even bother making new assets, people did complain but in the end these shooter fans bought it up in droves ensuring CoD 4 will probably be even less revolutionary, then they talk about people enjoying ME 1 having no taste. Just hilarious.

Thanks for the laugh. And I'm not referring to the "CoD market" but your post in general. It's dumbed down compared to the more thoughtful, intelligent criticisms others have made in the past. So I don't really think Mass Effect was ever intended for you.

Modifié par Il Divo, 19 février 2012 - 02:23 .

[AlexXIV]

eye basher wrote...

anlk92 wrote...

LenaMarie wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

LenaMarie wrote...

Case in point? They are the same people who buy Call of Duty Religiously even though it is the same crap regurgitated back at people, in CoD 3 they did not even bother making new assets, people did complain but in the end these shooter fans bought it up in droves ensuring CoD 4 will probably be even less revolutionary, then they talk about people enjoying ME 1 having no taste. Just hilarious.

That straw man was looking at you funny.

That is the new audience around here, its painfully obvious. No RPer would ever say with a straight face ME 1 was bad or dialogue heavy  = bad.

I don't think anyone here thinks that way. Especially since ME2 had much more dialogue than the first game.

I can say with a straight face ME1 is bad the first time you play it is fun sure but the next 10 times you beat it the fun factor starts going down fast.

That's the same with all story based games. If you play strategy or tactic simulations you can basically always make a new game and make everything different. In story based (RPGs) you always have the same main story and can at best have some arcs branching out. They always get old. Like you can see a movie so many times and at some point you get enough.

[furryrage59]

Beefcake9000 wrote...

I loved ME1&2 and I'm looking forward to 3, but I hate the whole Action/RPG/Story mode nonsense. I see it as a true case of 'dumbing down' and a waste of development time. It's completely unnecessary and frankly an insult to the player base.

Action Mode is essentially the game without player input into the development of the story. This is the third game in the series, not the first, and the unique stories we've built across the last 2 titles are what most of us are looking forward to playing out in 3. But even if a new player was to jump on board for this game, given that it's 18 rated, at least in my region, are we really supposed to believe that a person needs to be hand-held through a dialogue choice wheel? Do they really think people are that thick they can't pick between 2 or 3 choices in a convo? The ME series was built upon player choice - this mode removes that. I seriously cannot wrap my head around the thinking behind this. By removing that choice you're turning this into a third-person shooter with a skill tree. One of major appeals and selling points of this series was having the ability to create your own unique story. Why put in a mode that removes that strong point of the series? It baffles me.

Then we have Story mode, which is just RPG mode set to super easy. We know what Difficulty options are, Bioware! If someone is smart enough to play this game, they'll be smart enough to go to the options and lower the difficulty if they're finding it a bit tough. I mean, come on -you could even just have a screen at the start to set difficulty before you begin!

I know I can just ignore it, hit RPG Mode and forget about it, and given the feedback on that forum survey where something like 90% of all users played RPG mode, I guess most people will. I just think it's insulting that someone in EA or Bioware or whoever, really had such a low opinion of their player base that this crap was implemented. I worry that it sets a dangerous precedent for future Bioware titles, where freedom of choice is increasingly restricted in order not to alienate the 'COD Crowd'. But that's crap! Even the COD Crowd can learn to pick a choice on a wheel and see what happens. They may even enjoy it! They may even be inspired to seek out other games where they can determine the course of the story!

TLDR:

Games dumb down when developers stop trying to challenge the players.

Very well said.

[Il Divo]

SmokePants wrote...

I've always found the "dumbing down" argument, when applied to almost anything, to be in itself "dumb". Most often, when developers excise features for a sequel, it's because they didn't actually work to begin with or were dead ends. I would hate to live in a world where no one was allowed to trim the fat for fear of being accused of "dumbing it down".

Spot on. When making a sequel, developers have two options when dealing with bad gameplay mechanics.

1) Improvement.

2) Removal.

In my opinion, both options are valid when coming up with alterations. In ME2's case, I actually don't think they went far enough. They removed the terrain exploration, Mako, and materials gathering, but kept the same basic philosophy for planet-scanning and random side quests on planets. I would have done away with the concept of galaxy exploration altogether and followed side quest design built up in KotOR and Jade EMpire, or otherwise focus on a "less is more" approach. Fewer locations, but substantially more detail built in.

Modifié par Il Divo, 19 février 2012 - 02:34 .

[Lakan Suko]

Ziggeh wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

Loot has been a part of rpgs for as long as i can remember, literally.

Isometric projection was a staple of the genre until it wasn't. Having previously been used, or even successful doesn't immediately apply value.

That's not to say it's without value but at this point I would call inventory a preference, one which personally I'd be happy to never see again.

That's a really bad analogy, sure, these two have been around for a while, but inventory doesn't just go the same way isometric projection would, isometric projection was just bound to be taken over by something else, with inventory, it's either there or it's not, it's an actual feature, it adds to the game, not take away, the way it is implemented is the big player here of course, similar to how combat is made, or the balancing of games, etc.

It's as much of a preference as your cherished dialogue system and returning weapons mod system is a preference in the same sense. Taking away the inventory took away many important parts of the game, it is like dialogue taken away for the story fans or powers removed for the action junkies.

[nitefyre410]

Ziggeh wrote...

Ah yes "dumbing down": Criticism of the removal of features which I liked portrayed in a way that's meant to sound objective.

 

^   This - because that is  what dumbing down  has been become code words for - its not really a dumbing.    See   convulted =/=  smart. 

[Ziggeh]

LenaMarie wrote...

And people would riot if Bethesda even asked "should we do away with inventory systems in the next Elder Scrolls". Maybe you hate inventory and dont like being able to take everything that isnt nailed down, and Im not saying thats not valid but it has been a staple of RPGs for ages and alot of fun for RPGers especially those whom play Rogue type characters. Inventory systems can be steamlined but still good, Witcher games showed this.

I think the key here is that an inventory system isn't in itself either good or bad, but rather it needs to be judged on it's impact upon the overall game.

The elder scrolls games are more about the enviroment and your interaction with it than they are the narrative and so it is an important, perhaps critical  element. I can't really speak at any length as to the Witcher, but personally I saw it as a needless complexity.

In Mass Effect it existed almost in isolation, like a mini game bolted on that served no purpose beyond itself. There would be nothing wrong with that (and as you say, there are those that enjoy them) but it had a serious impact upon the pacing, which in this far more narrative driven title was something of a problem. I'd have no issue with it being optional, but that puts us into "Toggles for one and all" territory, and the opportunity cost involved.

[piemanz]

Beefcake9000 wrote...

I loved ME1&2 and I'm looking forward to 3, but I hate the whole Action/RPG/Story mode nonsense. I see it as a true case of 'dumbing down' and a waste of development time. It's completely unnecessary and frankly an insult to the player base.

Action Mode is essentially the game without player input into the development of the story. This is the third game in the series, not the first, and the unique stories we've built across the last 2 titles are what most of us are looking forward to playing out in 3. But even if a new player was to jump on board for this game, given that it's 18 rated, at least in my region, are we really supposed to believe that a person needs to be hand-held through a dialogue choice wheel? Do they really think people are that thick they can't pick between 2 or 3 choices in a convo? The ME series was built upon player choice - this mode removes that. I seriously cannot wrap my head around the thinking behind this. By removing that choice you're turning this into a third-person shooter with a skill tree. One of major appeals and selling points of this series was having the ability to create your own unique story. Why put in a mode that removes that strong point of the series? It baffles me.

Then we have Story mode, which is just RPG mode set to super easy. We know what Difficulty options are, Bioware! If someone is smart enough to play this game, they'll be smart enough to go to the options and lower the difficulty if they're finding it a bit tough. I mean, come on -you could even just have a screen at the start to set difficulty before you begin!

I know I can just ignore it, hit RPG Mode and forget about it, and given the feedback on that forum survey where something like 90% of all users played RPG mode, I guess most people will. I just think it's insulting that someone in EA or Bioware or whoever, really had such a low opinion of their player base that this crap was implemented. I worry that it sets a dangerous precedent for future Bioware titles, where freedom of choice is increasingly restricted in order not to alienate the 'COD Crowd'. But that's crap! Even the COD Crowd can learn to pick a choice on a wheel and see what happens. They may even enjoy it! They may even be inspired to seek out other games where they can determine the course of the story!

TLDR:

Games dumb down when developers stop trying to challenge the players.

It's the last installment of shepards story, I would think most of the really big decisions have already been made in the last 2 games. If a new player comes in and only intends to play the third, and has no invested intrested in the series, then i don't see any harm in having the game play out like a movie. All you have to do is set your Paragon/renegade style and let the game make them decisions for you. You never know you may even come to welcome this feature on your umpteenth playthrough.

If they had implemented this in ME2 then it wouldn't have worked simply because the decisions carry over, but here there are no decisions to carry over.

Modifié par piemanz, 19 février 2012 - 02:44 .

[Ziggeh]

Lakan Suko wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Isometric projection was a staple of the genre until it wasn't.

That's a really bad analog

The case being made was that common usage implied value. For refuting that point it's a fine analogy.

[Lakan Suko]

furryrage59 wrote...

Beefcake9000 wrote...

I loved ME1&2 and I'm looking forward to 3, but I hate the whole Action/RPG/Story mode nonsense. I see it as a true case of 'dumbing down' and a waste of development time. It's completely unnecessary and frankly an insult to the player base.

Action Mode is essentially the game without player input into the development of the story. This is the third game in the series, not the first, and the unique stories we've built across the last 2 titles are what most of us are looking forward to playing out in 3. But even if a new player was to jump on board for this game, given that it's 18 rated, at least in my region, are we really supposed to believe that a person needs to be hand-held through a dialogue choice wheel? Do they really think people are that thick they can't pick between 2 or 3 choices in a convo? The ME series was built upon player choice - this mode removes that. I seriously cannot wrap my head around the thinking behind this. By removing that choice you're turning this into a third-person shooter with a skill tree. One of major appeals and selling points of this series was having the ability to create your own unique story. Why put in a mode that removes that strong point of the series? It baffles me.

Then we have Story mode, which is just RPG mode set to super easy. We know what Difficulty options are, Bioware! If someone is smart enough to play this game, they'll be smart enough to go to the options and lower the difficulty if they're finding it a bit tough. I mean, come on -you could even just have a screen at the start to set difficulty before you begin!

I know I can just ignore it, hit RPG Mode and forget about it, and given the feedback on that forum survey where something like 90% of all users played RPG mode, I guess most people will. I just think it's insulting that someone in EA or Bioware or whoever, really had such a low opinion of their player base that this crap was implemented. I worry that it sets a dangerous precedent for future Bioware titles, where freedom of choice is increasingly restricted in order not to alienate the 'COD Crowd'. But that's crap! Even the COD Crowd can learn to pick a choice on a wheel and see what happens. They may even enjoy it! They may even be inspired to seek out other games where they can determine the course of the story!

TLDR:

Games dumb down when developers stop trying to challenge the players.

Very well said.

Again, this is why devs should learn not to hold the player's hands, a great look at Lionhead Studios would give a great lesson to any dev on what to do to BREAK YOUR GAME COMPLETELY.

No, I insist, research on Fable and it's continued dumbing down(yes, trust me on this one) from each sequel. I truly believe that the devs there think their fanbase is filled with a bunch of clueless tards, you cannot play fable 3 after playing the first two and not feel like your intelligence has been insulted and spat on repeatedly.

[LenaMarie]

I think the biggest issue is the idea that hardcore FPS gameplay is the same as using your brain gameplay. I've alot of the shooter-y aspect fans go on about the opinion that the new combat difficulty in ME3 requires more of a brain then any RPG-y aspects of the past, failing to realize shooter mechanics is not about brain but about reflexes.

[Lakan Suko]

Il Divo wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

I've always found the "dumbing down" argument, when applied to almost anything, to be in itself "dumb". Most often, when developers excise features for a sequel, it's because they didn't actually work to begin with or were dead ends. I would hate to live in a world where no one was allowed to trim the fat for fear of being accused of "dumbing it down".

Spot on. When making a sequel, developers have two options when dealing with bad gameplay mechanics.

1) Improvement.

2) Removal.

In my opinion, both options are valid when coming up with alterations. In ME2's case, I actually don't think they went far enough. They removed the terrain exploration, Mako, and materials gathering, but kept the same basic philosophy for planet-scanning and random side quests on planets. I would have done away with the concept of galaxy exploration altogether and followed side quest design built up in KotOR and Jade EMpire, or otherwise focus on a "less is more" approach. Fewer locations, but substantially more detail built in.

I honestly hope you were joking, remove even more of the game? So we're sacrificing the many, for the few, or rather, in your case, for the one... Removing even more features that just needs improvement is one thing, removing a part that the game is largely known for? Nah...

If it's truly a dead end, remove it, but ditching things should only be a last resort, we can't just do away with EVERYTHING...

[nitefyre410]

The notion that playing a RPG requires some huge amount of intelligence and thought process.. its laughable, just out right laughable.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 19 février 2012 - 02:55 .

[imnar]

AJRimmsey wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

Loot has been a part of rpgs for as long as i can remember, literally.

You new fans seem to think this is a new trend or something.

sitting at a friends house watching him xbox skyrim i saw a comparison.

he wasnt looting,what got him erect was a long corridor/dungeon with nasties in it,and him run-slash-running with blood spurting left and right.

running right past he chests ????

I was almost manic so i left

this is the main issue.we have went from space rpg to space shooter with rpg elements. pretty much every game on the market has rpg elements. bioware's niche is the rpg. your friend is playing the game how he wants to play which is absolutely fine, but when devs take out loot or remove the ability to outfit companions it limits the people who really enjoy that aspect of the game. me2 had "merchants" that sold 4-5 items. i enjoy outfitting my team. removing that aspect killed a lot of the immersion for me. i personally feel if bioware wouldn't have removed but instead streamlined the inventory me2 would have been perfect.

Modifié par imnar, 19 février 2012 - 03:02 .

[Ziggeh]

imnar wrote...

i personally feel if bioware wouldn't have removed but instead streamlined the inventory me2 would have been perfect.

That's exactly what they did.

[Lakan Suko]

Ziggeh wrote...

Lakan Suko wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Isometric projection was a staple of the genre until it wasn't.

That's a really bad analog

The case being made was that common usage implied value. For refuting that point it's a fine analogy.

Sure, but your last statement there sounded as if it was implying that inventory can be ridden as isometric projection did, it can not, not without considerable consequences to the game itself.

[furryrage59]

nitefyre410 wrote...

The notion that playing a RPG requires some huge amount of intelligence and thought process.. its laughable, just out right laughable.

Who said it requires a huge amount of intelligence?

If you're playing an rpg that doesn't make you think, your issues are probably deeper than the game itself tbh.