153 réponses à ce sujet

[N00blet666]

It seems like there should be an option available for a lot of the auto dialogue in the demo. For example the segment on Sur'Kesh where you move the Krogan female from the second checkpoint. In the E3 demo there was a dialogue option available they most likely removed this option in the demo. There are also several times at the beginning of the demo where in there definately should be a dialogue option. For example the segment in which Shepard talks about the council grounding him or her. His or her response seemed much too renegade for any paragon Shepard.

[Crackseed]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

crackseed wrote...

No disrespect to your opinion, but just because the first thing your Shep can say is something you pick does not make ME2's intro stronger or filled with more "choice" - ME2 intro has LESS things to say then ME3's, even if ME2's first thing to say is a dialogue choice whereas ME3's isn't till a few lines in. You STILL end up picking more to say, in a longer intro then what ME2 offered.

Not true. It does not matter if Shepard has a million lines of dialogue if you have no control over what is said. It would be no different to start of game just Sheaprd reading LoTR. That has more dialogue but it is the choices that defined who you are in the series, your character, your Shepard and your persona. Removal of that is the problem. It breaks immersion and character that spent two titles building up. If wished to have on auto pilot where your repsonses are canon then should be only done so though Action or Stor mode and NOT RPG mode.

Err >.> 

So, the 3 lines in ME2, which are "Alliance will be here", then "I gave you an order/go" and finally "The ship is lost!" supersede and make ME2's intro a real RPG experience compared to ME3 which provides 5+ dialogue choices and a longer experience, even if there is more filler dialogue in between those choices?

[abnocte]

crackseed wrote...

Hrm, good to know Did - I was assuming it was a bug, but I played through a few mins ago and you're right Good catch.

And Abnocte, you can't just compare the START of the intro - pound for pound ME3's intro is longer with MORE dialogue choices then ME2's. So that gripe is not really valid.

I agree that the intro is longer, I never said otherwise, and it is the intro where Shepard gets to talk more, yet out of all the lines Shepard says, only 8 times the player is asked for input?  

In ME and ME2 out of all the lines Shepard says in the intro, all of them are user input.

I love to roleplay my characters, I wouldn't even be playing ME if it was just another shooter/action game, so seeing an intro that could have been a wonderful roleplaying excersise turned into an out of character autodialogue fest, does not amuses me. 

And I highly doubt that the intro will be any different in that regard if I import a game.

[Dragoonlordz]

crackseed wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

crackseed wrote...

No disrespect to your opinion, but just because the first thing your Shep can say is something you pick does not make ME2's intro stronger or filled with more "choice" - ME2 intro has LESS things to say then ME3's, even if ME2's first thing to say is a dialogue choice whereas ME3's isn't till a few lines in. You STILL end up picking more to say, in a longer intro then what ME2 offered.

Not true. It does not matter if Shepard has a million lines of dialogue if you have no control over what is said. It would be no different to start of game just Sheaprd reading LoTR. That has more dialogue but it is the choices that defined who you are in the series, your character, your Shepard and your persona. Removal of that is the problem. It breaks immersion and character that spent two titles building up. If wished to have on auto pilot where your repsonses are canon then should be only done so though Action or Stor mode and NOT RPG mode.

Err >.> 

So, the 3 lines in ME2, which are "Alliance will be here", then "I gave you an order/go" and finally "The ship is lost!" supersede and make ME2's intro a real RPG experience compared to ME3 which provides 5+ dialogue choices and a longer experience, even if there is more filler dialogue in between those choices?

In ME2 your conversations allowed input at the start of each during the introduction, Shepard was not persona or character breaking during because TiM and Miranda segment he was not present, on the ship almost all interactions were set tone and direction by responses first and dialogue flowed from that point with multiple chances of changing the tone. On the Station his conversations did the same. In ME3 that is gone from the introduction, Shepard is not in control, he does not decide the tone for the conversations and most of it is canon, lacks impact and out of character you may have developed. Having a choice half way through a conversation is different to setting up the direction and tone of that conversation by choices prior to 10 minutes of dialogue from their generic Shepard canon, only getting input half way through the conversations and in some cases in ME3 introduction no input at all.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 février 2012 - 07:00 .

[Crackseed]

This is going to be a case of agree to disagree then, but I do get what you're saying

[Dragoonlordz]

crackseed wrote...

This is going to be a case of agree to disagree then, but I do get what you're saying

I have no problem with that. If feel different I see no reason why should force another to change, I merely explained how I see it vs how you saw it. Both are allowed to coexist as opinions. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 février 2012 - 06:57 .

[Crackseed]

Hehe, of course I merely wanted to say that since these boards are full of way too much "Grrr, you disagree with me so you're an idiot biodrone or troll" mentality <.<

[AkiKishi]

Want to hear something ironic ? FFXIII-2 has more interactive elements in the demo than ME3 does.

FFXIII-2 is a JRPG was anyone missing the "joke".

[wright1978]

abnocte wrote...

crackseed wrote...

Hrm, good to know Did - I was assuming it was a bug, but I played through a few mins ago and you're right Good catch.

And Abnocte, you can't just compare the START of the intro - pound for pound ME3's intro is longer with MORE dialogue choices then ME2's. So that gripe is not really valid.

I agree that the intro is longer, I never said otherwise, and it is the intro where Shepard gets to talk more, yet out of all the lines Shepard says, only 8 times the player is asked for input?  

In ME and ME2 out of all the lines Shepard says in the intro, all of them are user input.

I love to roleplay my characters, I wouldn't even be playing ME if it was just another shooter/action game, so seeing an intro that could have been a wonderful roleplaying excersise turned into an out of character autodialogue fest, does not amuses me. 

And I highly doubt that the intro will be any different in that regard if I import a game.

Agree completely, i'm very worried that auto shep will appear time and time again throughout the game and make roleplaying a character impossible.

[Crackseed]

Honestly, I'm not fretting at all. To me, all of the ME intros have been dialogue light in favor of setting the tone for the following game. Now if the rest of the game ends up being dialogue light, I'll certainly be back here going 'Bioware, WTF?" >.>

[abnocte]

As I'm reading this, it is obvious that we are talking about different things when we use the word "choice".

Choice -> game outcome
Choice -> Shepard personality outcome

We all know that choosing different dialog options in ME2 won't change the fact that Shepard gets spaced. But that's not the kind of choice people complaining about the intro are talking about.

We are talking about choice in our Shepard's character/behaviour when facing a situation, and the fact that auto-dialogue is going to remove that option from us, leading Paragon Shepard to act Renegade or Renegade Shepard to act Paragon without our consent.

[AkiKishi]

Don't forget the "intro" is both the opening sequence and the tutorial level. ME2 and ME3 just don't compare there are far more interactive conversation elements in ME2 than there are in the ME3 intro sequence and tutorial level.

[Rickin10]

abnocte wrote...

As I'm reading this, it is obvious that we are talking about different things when we use the word "choice".

Choice -> game outcome
Choice -> Shepard personality outcome

We all know that choosing different dialog options in ME2 won't change the fact that Shepard gets spaced. But that's not the kind of choice people complaining about the intro are talking about.

We are talking about choice in our Shepard's character/behaviour when facing a situation, and the fact that auto-dialogue is going to remove that option from us, leading Paragon Shepard to act Renegade or Renegade Shepard to act Paragon without our consent.

Nail. On. Head.  It all comes down to immersion or the definition of role-play.  During the intro I couldn't beleive some of the things coming out of MY Sheps mouth. I guess it depends on if all you care about is shooting things, and having a strory where you can make big decisions, or whether you care about having YOUR Shep act in the character you've moulded through 2 games.  

Unfortunetely,  judging by the missing chunk on surkesh I feel we'll be having an awful lot more of auto-Sheperd, and even when we do get a choice the wheel will provide just 2 options on the right hand side that arn't as polar as they have been in the 2 previous games, with the investigate option on the left.  This is what I think the devs meant when they say they go for a minimum of 3 options.  

[Nathan Redgrave]

wright1978 wrote...

Sorry that's completely untrue. Me1 had dialogue choices.

 
...Some of which weren't actually choices, but rather the same dialogue option paraphrased three times to present an illusion of choice.

Oh, make no mistake, ME1 was guilty of taking choice away from the player from time to time too, it was just sneakier about it.

[Dragoonlordz]

crackseed wrote...

Hehe, of course I merely wanted to say that since these boards are full of way too much "Grrr, you disagree with me so you're an idiot biodrone or troll" mentality <.<

There to many people attacking each other on BSN these days in general over different preferences and levels of enjoyment gained from aspects of gameplay. Personal attacks rather than actual debate.

I only have five concerns about ME3 in total, to me they are valid concerns and this is the biggest of them so I feel passionately about it but I have no intention of attacking someone if they feel different, just debate as to why feel different in polite manner as I can manage within those strong feelings on subject.

My five concerns are firstly auto dialogue, lack of freedom in setting up the choices at start of dailogue and interactions in order to set the tone for the conversation which is replacement and degredation of my persona and character created through past two titles because of this. This was heavily shown as present during the demonstration and raised concerns for the rest of retail game.

Secondly is the lack of trial and/or content prior to the attack which if wish to go into detail just read my review where in the largest aspect talks about this even if contains more elements talked about in it.

Thirdly is the impact of choices, we were told has major impact but few things of late as made me concerned from Chris thread which gave me impression the impact is only for most part reflected in/by nostalgia and knowledge of past actions rather than seeing them make a large difference bar a few exceptions. The difference between starting a game with no import and seeing a returning character lets say Mordin as example, you see him do same things in both import and non import and effect and impact relies on you knowing who he is rather than what he does. Or even what I heard about importing a character only gives you one or two lines of extra dialogue (of which do not still know if canon, no choices or allowing of tone in that segment as mentioned in first concern and largest one). This concern may be unfounded and will see when retail game is in my hands but it is a concern right now for me.

Fourth is minor and is want to know if mini games still present such as hacking, it's removal would disappoint me and is personal preference, the exception to this and only one is the planet scanning which I disliked immensely.

The last concern is amount of freedom will be allowed in game (exploration, pace and content) and is not related to the demonstration overall but in general principle.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 février 2012 - 07:32 .

[AkiKishi]

On a sort of related note did anyone else feel like they were being treated like an idiot during the tutorial level this time around?

In ME2 it made a degree of sense, being dead testing your abilities. Not so much in ME3 it comes across more like insulting. Probably should have had something with Vega and a refresher course after getting out of the brig.

[Crackseed]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Don't forget the "intro" is both the opening sequence and the tutorial level. ME2 and ME3 just don't compare there are far more interactive conversation elements in ME2 than there are in the ME3 intro sequence and tutorial level.

This needs to be clarified since you're technically incorrect - the intro portion is basically what precedes the title screen essentially. ME2's Cerberus station follows the intro portion and we don't know what is following the intro in ME3, so it's kind of hard to compare that. 

[didymos1120]

All games have tutorial levels these days. I don't see ME3 as being somehow worse for also having one.

[AkiKishi]

crackseed wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Don't forget the "intro" is both the opening sequence and the tutorial level. ME2 and ME3 just don't compare there are far more interactive conversation elements in ME2 than there are in the ME3 intro sequence and tutorial level.

This needs to be clarified since you're technically incorrect - the intro portion is basically what precedes the title screen essentially. ME2's Cerberus station follows the intro portion and we don't know what is following the intro in ME3, so it's kind of hard to compare that. 

Normandy - Cerberus base is the intro/tutorial of ME2 correct ? 
Meeting with defence force -Mincing with Anderson is the intro/tutorial level of ME3 correct? 

How many conversations in Cerberus base ? 
How many in "Mincing with Anderson" ? 

We know fine, you just don't want to acknowlege it for whatever reason.

[Crackseed]

BobSmith101 wrote...

crackseed wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Don't forget the "intro" is both the opening sequence and the tutorial level. ME2 and ME3 just don't compare there are far more interactive conversation elements in ME2 than there are in the ME3 intro sequence and tutorial level.

This needs to be clarified since you're technically incorrect - the intro portion is basically what precedes the title screen essentially. ME2's Cerberus station follows the intro portion and we don't know what is following the intro in ME3, so it's kind of hard to compare that. 

Normandy - Cerberus base is the intro/tutorial of ME2 correct ? 
Meeting with defence force -Mincing with Anderson is the intro/tutorial level of ME3 correct? 

How many conversations in Cerberus base ? 
How many in "Mincing with Anderson" ? 

We know fine, you just don't want to acknowlege it for whatever reason.

No need to get an attitude - this has been a rather pleasant debate so far. 

My point is that we have a good base of comparison for ME1 and ME2. We do not have a good base of comparion for ME3 yet since, you know, we haven't PLAYED past the title screen in ME3, which in ME2 was what lead into the more rich portion of dialogue, choices, etc.

[AkiKishi]

didymos1120 wrote...

All games have tutorial levels these days. I don't see ME3 as being somehow worse for also having one.

Never saw one in FFXIII-2 (it has optional skippable scripted encounters not tutorial levels).

[Rickin10]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

crackseed wrote...

Hehe, of course I merely wanted to say that since these boards are full of way too much "Grrr, you disagree with me so you're an idiot biodrone or troll" mentality <.<

There to many people attacking each other on BSN these days in general over different preferences and levels of enjoyment gained from aspects of gameplay. Personal attacks rather than actual debate.

I only have four concerns about ME3 in total, to me they are valid concerns and this is the biggest of them so I feel passionately about it but I have no intention of attacking someone if they feel different, just debate as to why feel different in polite manner as I can manage within those strong feelings on subject.

My four concerns are firstly auto dialogue, lack of freedom in setting up the choices at start of dailogue and interactions in order to set the tone for the conversation which is replacement and degredation of my persona and character created through past two titles because of this. This was heavily shown as present during the demonstration and raised concerns for the rest of retail game.

Secondly is the lack of trial and/or content prior to the attack which if wish to go into detail just read my review where in the largest aspect talks about this even if contains more elements talked about in it.

Thirdly is the impact of choices, we were told has major impact but few things of late as made me concerned from Chris thread which gave me impression the impact is only for most part reflected in/by nostalgia and knowledge of past actions rather than seeing them make a large difference bar a few exceptions. The difference between starting a game with no import and seeing a returning character lets say Mordin as example, you see him do same things in both import and non import and effect and impact relies on you knowing who he is rather than what he does. Or even what I heard about importing a character only gives you one or two lines of extra dialogue (of which do not still know if canon, no choices or allowing of tone in that segment as mentioned in first concern and largest one). This concern may be unfounded and will see when retail game is in my hands but it is a concern right now for me.

Fourth is minor and is want to know if mini games still present such as hacking, it's removal would disappoint me and is personal preference, the exception to this and only one is the planet scanning which I disliked immensely.

The last concern is amount of freedom will be allowed in game (exploration, pace and content) and is not related to the demonstration overall but in general principle.

Bloody hell!  I could have written that myself (though nowhere near as articulately).  That's pretty much all my concerns too.  Maybe before I think of posting anything, i'll pm you to give it the once over before i post it:lol:

[didymos1120]

BobSmith101 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

All games have tutorial levels these days. I don't see ME3 as being somehow worse for also having one.

Never saw one in FFXIII-2 (it has optional skippable scripted encounters not tutorial levels).

OK, fine: most games.

[ediskrad327]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Sorry that's completely untrue. Me1 had dialogue choices.

 
...Some of which weren't actually choices, but rather the same dialogue option paraphrased three times to present an illusion of choice.

Oh, make no mistake, ME1 was guilty of taking choice away from the player from time to time too, it was just sneakier about it.

oh yeah, i remember thata happening

[AkiKishi]

crackseed wrote...

No need to get an attitude - this has been a rather pleasant debate so far. 

My point is that we have a good base of comparison for ME1 and ME2. We do not have a good base of comparion for ME3 yet since, you know, we haven't PLAYED past the title screen in ME3, which in ME2 was what lead into the more rich portion of dialogue, choices, etc.

We played the first level of ME3 the equivelent of the Cerberus base.

Your saying that the intro has the same ammount of conversations but comepletely ignoring those that take place in the tutorial level because it does not support your case. 
 

Modifié par BobSmith101, 19 février 2012 - 07:42 .