157 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkest Dreamer]

Zealuu wrote...

Are there RPG Warriors and RPG Bards too?

Me, me, I want to be the bard!

*Strums on lute*

There once was a self-proclaimed wizard,
Who stirred up a rather mean blizzard,
Risking the lion’s den, such a pity,
Resulting in this god- awful ditty
And with that I offer my bows and bid you a hasty adieu as I suddenly sense a taste for some bardic gizzard.

*Flees*

[Silensfurtim]

Well fart me a lulluby, I agree with him.

0.01% of it.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 25 novembre 2009 - 10:15 .

[ne12o]

i acutally have to agree. the story seem to have no devellopement at all.

i didnt find any of the charactors believable at all. they were all extremely one dimentional and didnt devellop at all. "hardening" their personality is hardly believable.

[Amioran]

jasonirma wrote...

I thought the OP's thoughts were well constructed, even if I disagree. It actually was an interesting read.

I wish to offer a couple of points of my own, only because I can .

***No story is original. George Polti and Carlos Gozzi concluded separately that there are exactly 36 dramatic situations into which characters in any drama can interact. Only 36.

Yes, how not. Tell these Polti and Gozzi to read the Illuminations of Rimbaud or his Season en Enfer and to understand what there was behind them. The story repeats, as ever.

Those declarations are from individuals that neither know truly of what they speak about. If they read a little more Adorno, Heiddeger and their tractates on Holderlin maybe they will change a bit their trite and wrong argumentations.

Reducing literature to numbers is a thing only idiots do, and these two are completely idiots. Neither mathematic is an exact science, see the theorem of Fibonacci.

The same happened before romanticism when a guy called Lubowsky (neither remembered but he had a voice-over with intellectuals mind as David) declared that poetry was dead because there were only about 42 arguments plausible for poetry.

Then Rimbaud came...

Modifié par Amioran, 25 novembre 2009 - 10:47 .

[Errel]

I was promised a wizard...

I feel used

[Gadarr]

0mar wrote...

He has some good points.

Dragon Age's storyline is cookie cutter original. Elves live in forests, dwarves live underground, etc etc. The main human villain is a completely unsympathetic character, willing to go to indefensible extremes. The overarching villain is completely devoid of character, basically it's another monster to add to your mantle. There are really no major plot twists that weren't foreseeable. Other than the Fade mythos, there's nothing really original about Dragon Age's setting. It's generic fantasy and I suppose that works for most people. I really was expected something a lot more indepth and thought-provoking, especially considering this game took nearly a decade to develop. In the end, the world was nothing we haven't all seen in a dozen different fantasy games.

While this is true in a general way, the setting of Dragon Age differs in a great many details from your generic fantasy one. Elves DO live in forests (and there is actually a reason to this other than that they just looove trees ;p), but the majority of them lives pretty much the lives of slaves in human slums. Off the top of my hat, the only other games setting similiar to this is The Witcher. It has definitely not yet been "beaten to death". Dwarves DO live underground, but their social structure is quite unique and actually pretty disgusting. Whereas usually, dwarves may be focussed on mining and stuff, but they're also quite noble.

The human villain is of course a villain (otherwise you wouldn't fight against him, which in turn would be rather boring), but he does have motives other than wanting to be evil or him just being a powerhungry bastard. As you can see by reading the different threads on this topic. The archdemon may not have a "personality", but the game hints at a more refined background more than once. It mentions the Old Gods, darkspawn corruption and so on. So, we'll eventually see how it turns out, stating that theres nothing more to it than just some random evil is a bit simplistic though.

Magic here has a very different approach than you see in your regular setting. Especially concerning the Fade, the Templars, tranquils, abominations and so on. Of course, it's not as if Bioware is rethinking the wheel (incidentally, it does remind me of The Wheel of Time ), but still, maintaining that it's your same old loaf of bread is simply wrong. It's fantasy alright, and it uses some clichés. Some are the same as they are everywhere, some are different, on some the game expands. What else do you expect out of a fantasy setting?

Concering the OP, I wonder how he would come up with a different dialogue system. In a video game, choices are limited. There won't ever be a game where they aren't. Because software can only handle so many variables, that's the way it is. It's not a human gamemaster after all. What's more, a video game can't react to an alternative approach originating in the players mind. How could it? It's just not possible. So, he will just have to live with the inherent flaws in video games or play tabletop games instead.

Modifié par Gadarr, 25 novembre 2009 - 11:21 .

[WishFish123]

Great review!

I absolutely agree with it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

0mar wrote...

He has some good points.

Dragon Age's storyline is cookie cutter original. Elves live in forests, dwarves live underground, etc etc. The main human villain is a completely unsympathetic character, willing to go to indefensible extremes. The overarching villain is completely devoid of character, basically it's another monster to add to your mantle. There are really no major plot twists that weren't foreseeable. Other than the Fade mythos, there's nothing really original about Dragon Age's setting. It's generic fantasy and I suppose that works for most people. I really was expected something a lot more indepth and thought-provoking, especially considering this game took nearly a decade to develop. In the end, the world was nothing we haven't all seen in a dozen different fantasy games.

ERmm.....DA:O has it's flaws, but story and setting aren't one of those.

Unoriginal? Go look it up in a dictionary. Having a dragon s the big bad, rather than some machiavelian wizzard, IS fresh and new. When's the last time the main boss in a RPG was like that? ... I'm waiting.....

You want original? I DARE you to show me examples of what you consider original (so I can tear them a new one),
If there is any argument I hate on the internet, then it's thins one.
As soon as I see it, I allready know not to take the person seriously, cause it's clear proof that person doesn't know what the hell it's talking about. Guess some people are unable to see below the surface...I guess al lthe books look the same to them..cause all the covers look the same.

[0mar]

Gadarr wrote...

0mar wrote...

He has some good points.

Dragon Age's storyline is cookie cutter original. Elves live in forests, dwarves live underground, etc etc. The main human villain is a completely unsympathetic character, willing to go to indefensible extremes. The overarching villain is completely devoid of character, basically it's another monster to add to your mantle. There are really no major plot twists that weren't foreseeable. Other than the Fade mythos, there's nothing really original about Dragon Age's setting. It's generic fantasy and I suppose that works for most people. I really was expected something a lot more indepth and thought-provoking, especially considering this game took nearly a decade to develop. In the end, the world was nothing we haven't all seen in a dozen different fantasy games.

While this is true in a general way, the setting of Dragon Age differs in a great many details from your generic fantasy one. Elves DO live in forests (and there is actually a reason to this other than that they just looove trees ;p), but the majority of them lives pretty much the lives of slaves in human slums. Off the top of my hat, the only other games setting similiar to this is The Witcher. It has definitely not yet been "beaten to death". Dwarves DO live underground, but their social structure is quite unique and actually pretty disgusting. Whereas usually, dwarves may be focussed on mining and stuff, but they're also quite noble.

The human villain is of course a villain (otherwise you wouldn't fight against him, which in turn would be rather boring), but he does have motives other than wanting to be evil or him just being a powerhungry bastard. As you can see by reading the different threads on this topic. The archdemon may not have a "personality", but the game hints at a more refined background more than once. It mentions the Old Gods, darkspawn corruption and so on. So, we'll eventually see how it turns out, stating that theres nothing more to it than just some random evil is a bit simplistic though.

Magic here has a very different approach than you see in your regular setting. Especially concerning the Fade, the Templars, tranquils, abominations and so on. Of course, it's not as if Bioware is rethinking the wheel (incidentally, it does remind me of The Wheel of Time ), but still, maintaining that it's your same old loaf of bread is simply wrong. It's fantasy alright, and it uses some clichés. Some are the same as they are everywhere, some are different, on some the game expands. What else do you expect out of a fantasy setting?

Concering the OP, I wonder how he would come up with a different dialogue system. In a video game, choices are limited. There won't ever be a game where they aren't. Because software can only handle so many variables, that's the way it is. It's not a human gamemaster after all. What's more, a video game can't react to an alternative approach originating in the players mind. How could it? It's just not possible. So, he will just have to live with the inherent flaws in video games or play tabletop games instead.

Well, understand that the human villain should be sympathetic in the slightest.  There was nothing that villain did that made him sympathetic at all, something that made you said "you know, I may not agree, but I can see your point of view."  This guy did none of that.

I thought the Witcher had a much more interesting storyline, in almost every way.  It was much more open in each chapter and the main villain, while doing some very reprehensible things, when shown his motivation, made you think twice about his motivations.  I much preferred the Elves being terrorists/freedom fighters and dwarves being surly, drunk bastards.  The Witcher was also much more gritty and it didn't even try that hard to do so.  Finally, I loved the concept of two swords being used to slay different monsters.  Steel for humans/animals, silver for monsters/abominations.

And yes, I would have loved to see more of the Fade being explored.  That part of the game was so much more refreshing than anything else in the game.  I'd have love to see the Black City and other landmarks in the Fade.  I think it should have played a much more prominent role in the game than a one-off quest.  The Deep Roads and the Fade were the two most refreshing parts of the game.  I really hope Bioware takes this into account and displays these two areas more prominently in the sequel/expansion.  There are only so many mage towers and forests to explore before you've seen them all.

[Gadarr]

0mar wrote...

Well, understand that the human villain should be sympathetic in the slightest.  There was nothing that villain did that made him sympathetic at all, something that made you said "you know, I may not agree, but I can see your point of view."  This guy did none of that.

Mhh, I disagree, especially when comparing it to The Witcher. The Salamandra experimented on children and were generally really nasty and... well, powerhungry. That they wanted to preserve the legacy of the witchers didn't really make a difference, since they just did what they did because of the attached power.

Loghain on the other hand does have valid motives. He doesn't do what he does because he wants personal power, but because he believes that what he does is to the good of Ferelden. While most of his decisions are indeed impossible to agree with, there are some that are, at least if you try to understand what his reasoning is about. Granted though, we don't get much of a presentation concerning his reasoning, I took most of that out of the different topics around the forums which also mention the book.

In a general way though, I agree that The Witcher did a better job at portraying a dirty, dark world. Probably because various side quests offered a deeper insight and focussed on a cultural conglomerate instead of several different ones. On the other hand, DA offers a wider variety of "grey" in your possible choices.

[FedericoV]

I think that the review has some valid points but generally is too negative with DA:O, especially concerning the story and the setting.

Modifié par FedericoV, 25 novembre 2009 - 01:05 .

[Auraad]

Actually, I AGREE with EVERYTHING the OP says!



He says: DA:O is a great game!

He says: There are a few glitches (and states some examples)

He says: eventually there will be a better game someday ... (of course there will be!)



So, where is the problem for some of you, I ask? It's nothing new.



Really, some of you must get a grip on yourself and NOT take posts personally ... geeez.



And in the OPs statement concerning DA:O lacking originality ... unfortunately this is absolutely true! It's more or less Lord of the Rings as a video game, don't you think? (remember the trench filled with dark spawn = orcs, the flight of the dragon/demon = the ring ghosts, the story itself ... blah) - it's still well done, though.

[SheffSteel]

Does anyone really think a more sympathetic - or complex - villain would be any more original?

[Durallan]

T0rin3 wrote...

TheChemicals wrote...

Blahblahblahblahblahblahblah...

Enchantment?

Enchantment!


On originalism, I thought Ultima 7 was original and I think Dragon Age: Origins is original, its all LOTR's fault that all fantasy is now considered not originals!

Modifié par Durallan, 25 novembre 2009 - 03:09 .

[kungfusam]

Actually it we be the fault of the hundreds of western developers who endlessly copy LOTR that make the whole thing unoriginal

[Gecon]

Its funny when someone writes a "wall of text" to complain about some other wall of text. For a wall of text is something where you have a ton of words but nothing is really said. This description fits this review perfectly. Its all "blablabla I dont like it blablabla".

Yeah of course there are errors in the game, and of course there are things that arent solved ideally. Oh freaking surprise. Did anyone expect anything else ? And seriously, this game is rock stable compared to many other games out there, and the problems are in smaller details, not in huge issues like crashes every hour, impossible to finish main story, and stuff like that we've seen elsewhere. And I have no freaking clue what the problem with the story is. What the heck did the author wanted to do differently ? He only gives very weak hints about it.

[Gecon]

kungfusam wrote...

Actually it we be the fault of the hundreds of western developers who endlessly copy LOTR that make the whole thing unoriginal

It was never very original in the beginning.

Read the original Conan stories. Earlier than LotR, huge world setting, very suspenseful, and brilliant storytelling. Yes it has no halflings, not even elves, but its much, much better literature. Now compare this stuff with what LotR gives you. I certainly dont know how I managed to read this book at all. Suspense ? More like: I cant believe this, the halflings are STILL on the way to Mordor, does ANYTHING ever happen here ?

The LotR movies are a lot better, much more dramatic, and much less encyclopic.

[sidion77]

That's why I avoid that site like the plague it sounds like angry nerd speak. The linearity for me is fine especially after playing open world games where story is non-existant.

[Roxlimn]

Frankly, the charge that DAO is unoriginal could be laid on countless other games, including games like The Witcher, for all its claims otherwise.



Do Elves in Ferelden live in forests? No. Most of them live in slums around human towns as an oppressed class. Some extremists live in roving, nomadic clans, which SOMETIMES camp in and around forests, just like EVERYONE ELSE, but those are few.



Do dwarves live underground? Most. As far as humans know, most dwarves are above-ground merchants who like to roam the countryside. They know nothing of Orzammar or dwarven culture because the dwarves live in an underground hell where random rocks kill you if you're not careful.



Is the villain unsympathetic? Absolutely not. Many of the things he does is reprehensible from a personal perspective, but totally understandable from a policy perspective. Loghain would make a better king than Alistair, certainly. When push came to shove, Alistair was just as willing to kill a human as Loghain was, and for a cheaper reason - personal revenge.



At heart, Alistair makes for a very poor hero. Whiny, incompetent, and self-serving, he's a disgrace to the Grey Wardens. I can see why Duncan isn't so very proud of him. It's a good thing he isn't the actual hero of this game.



Understandable villains are NOT original. We've had crap like that since the first Final Fantasy. It's refreshing to be able to beat up on a pure monster for once.

[Jinadan]

[TheChemicals]

Roxlimn wrote...

Frankly, the charge that DAO is unoriginal could be laid on countless other games, including games like The Witcher, for all its claims otherwise.

Do Elves in Ferelden live in forests? No. Most of them live in slums around human towns as an oppressed class. Some extremists live in roving, nomadic clans, which SOMETIMES camp in and around forests, just like EVERYONE ELSE, but those are few.

Do dwarves live underground? Most. As far as humans know, most dwarves are above-ground merchants who like to roam the countryside. They know nothing of Orzammar or dwarven culture because the dwarves live in an underground hell where random rocks kill you if you're not careful.

Is the villain unsympathetic? Absolutely not. Many of the things he does is reprehensible from a personal perspective, but totally understandable from a policy perspective. Loghain would make a better king than Alistair, certainly. When push came to shove, Alistair was just as willing to kill a human as Loghain was, and for a cheaper reason - personal revenge.

At heart, Alistair makes for a very poor hero. Whiny, incompetent, and self-serving, he's a disgrace to the Grey Wardens. I can see why Duncan isn't so very proud of him. It's a good thing he isn't the actual hero of this game.

Understandable villains are NOT original. We've had crap like that since the first Final Fantasy. It's refreshing to be able to beat up on a pure monster for once.

This is exactly my point. How does a game that is traditional and sticks to the core and is just another regurgitated rpg of Bioware types get such hi ratings. A game that is rated a 9 and 9.5 should have some innovation and original story. The game is good but it is not a 9 or a classic. Its a repeat of older games by bioware.

When i said that ill drop this game for something better, i was asked by alot of people on this forum "what is better" and im sure it was toned with a smart arse sense but ill tell you what could be better- Alpha- spy rpg. Many rpg games are coming out and also mmo's.

[JamesMoriarty123]

rmp wrote...

I'm sick and tired of people complaining the story is unoriginal. Yeah, it's a pretty standard medieval-fantasy story and setting, and that's the way I like it. Of course it's going to resemble other games and movies like this, but it has its own details.
To the OP, I got news for you, I don't want some story that's weird and probably stupid just to be different.

This.
To all you haters - GTFO. Dragon Age is awesome. End Of.

EDIT: If Obsidian's track record is anything to go buy, Alpha Protocol will suck. Hard. KotOR2 anyone? Oh dear...

Modifié par JamesMoriarty123, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:24 .

[Amioran]

TheChemicals wrote...

This is exactly my point. How does a game that is traditional and sticks to the core and is just another regurgitated rpg of Bioware types get such hi ratings. A game that is rated a 9 and 9.5 should have some innovation and original story. The game is good but it is not a 9 or a classic. Its a repeat of older games by bioware.

You are indeed funny. You are blaming DA:O for not being original on story, but, I ask you this: do you REALLY believe that a game can be indeed original on this part? It can be on mechanics, not on story. A game is not a book, a story creator in a game is usually not a genius of literature. You are blaming a game for a thing that it's inconcepible, you should understand it.  

And while we are at it since you are a reviewer and you still insist on telling these idiocies, tell me which game has an original story, I'm curious. You are just biased, that's all. You didn't like the game, and this is fine, but please don't try to pretend there's a different motive apart personal bias, because it's obvious that you HAVE to dislike the game.

When i said that ill drop this game for something better, i was asked by alot of people on this forum "what is better" and im sure it was toned with a smart arse sense but ill tell you what could be better- Alpha- spy rpg. Many rpg games are coming out and also mmo's.

Sure that for an RPG Wizard you know a lot about the genre... Alpha is NOT an rpg in the classical sense, surely not as DA:O is, same goes for almost every MMO around.

So if you want to find a real RPG better than DA:O and having an "original" story please tell me when you are going to find one, since I want really to see what kind of originality you speak about.

[SheffSteel]

TheChemicals wrote...
.... How does a game that is traditional and sticks to the core and is just another regurgitated rpg of Bioware types get such hi ratings. A game that is rated a 9 and 9.5 should have some innovation and original story.

Maybe people are looking for other things than originality. Don't know how else to say this. Critics, reviewers, and gamers obviously disagree with you.

[Amioran]

Amioran wrote...

TheChemicals wrote...

This is exactly my point. How does a game that is traditional and sticks to the core and is just another regurgitated rpg of Bioware types get such hi ratings. A game that is rated a 9 and 9.5 should have some innovation and original story. The game is good but it is not a 9 or a classic. Its a repeat of older games by bioware.

You are indeed funny. You are blaming DA:O for not being original on story, but, I ask you this: do you REALLY believe that a game can be indeed original on this part? It can be on mechanics, not on story. A game is not a book, a story creator in a game is usually not a genius of literature. You are blaming a game for a thing that it's inconcepible, you should understand it.  

And while we are at it since you are a reviewer and you still insist on telling these idiocies, tell me which game has an original story, I'm curious. You are just biased, that's all. You didn't like the game, and this is fine, but please don't try to pretend there's a different motive apart personal bias, because it's obvious that you HAVE to dislike the game to pass yourself as original (may I presume that this is a complex you have?) when you are obviously not.

The 90% of your "review" it's based on these sort of points. For this many people have insulted you here, not because you cannot have an opinion, but only because you insist on forming it on wrong parameters, and in doing so you are naturally prone to failure from the start.

I'm sure you started the game trying to find something you didn't like, and sure you found it, it's not difficult, it's a game. Pretending a game to be different from what it is, however, is just what makes you pathetic.

When i said that ill drop this game for something better, i was asked by alot of people on this forum "what is better" and im sure it was toned with a smart arse sense but ill tell you what could be better- Alpha- spy rpg. Many rpg games are coming out and also mmo's.

Sure that for an RPG Wizard you know a lot about the genre... Alpha is NOT an rpg in the classical sense, surely not as DA:O is, same goes for almost every MMO around.

So if you want to find a real RPG better than DA:O and having an "original" story please tell me when you are going to find one, since I want really to see what kind of originality you speak about.