233 réponses à ce sujet

[DJBare]

Ends justifying the means is just the same as "I can sleep easy at night"; let me explain, the renegades justify the involuntary sacrifices by saying it will save the galaxy, therefore you are placing yourselves in a position of comfort in much the same way paragons do.

[AquamanOS]

People need to stop with this "My Shepard" garbage, and understand the limitations and mechanics of game design. It's not magic to rewrite itself at your every whim. There's a plot, and you have to follow it, same as ME1 and ME2. You aren't Shepard, you are simply controlling the Shepard character that Bioware created and wrote. And while you have a few options as to go about it, you are still limited by what they will allow you to do. In ME1 you had to fight Saren and oppose Soveriegn. In ME2 you had to join Cerberus and take out the Collectors. And in ME3 you have to oppose Cerberus and take out the Reapers. You've never ever been given an alternate path. The only real option is whether or not Shepard is nice or nasty about doing it. And this has been going on for every RPG ever.

[Farbautisonn]

AquamanOS wrote... this has been going on for every RPG ever.

-Every Crpg ever.

I once sold out my mates to slavers during a pen and paper session. I saved them again later, but they were somewhat miffed and killed me. Had to reroll as an elf as punishment.

[Julia343]

movieguyabw wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AquamanOS wrote...

Yep. Renegade Shep might have been cool with Cerberus when they both fighting to take out the Collectors, but even a Renegade Shep wants the Reapers taken out. They'd never try to mess with them to take control. They saw first hand what happened to the last guy who tried to make nice with the Reapers.

And that's BS. Taking full control of Shep like that..how is that a role-playing game anymore, when the player cannot even take rational and logical options presented?

It's even more BS because the ending allows Shep to do exactly the same thing Cerberus wants.

I agree.  Maybe your Shepard wouldn't want to take control of the Reapers, but that doesn't mean *everyone's* Shepard wouldn't.  If the Illusive Man tells my Female Shepard "Hey, I want to control the Reapers, and use them as weapons", I damn well want the option that says "Oh, cool.  I like that idea."    Moreover, I've been thinking of doing a playthrough, where I play as though Shepard is indoctrinated already.  That Shepard would not want the Reapers taken out.

And see? This is the entire problem.

Did anyone notice something strange about Klengadon? In ME1 it was an arid terrestrial world that had dust storms sort of like Mars that had been grazed by a mass driver weapon about 37 million yrs ago. In ME2 it suddenly became a gas giant with a 37 million yr old derelict reaper orbiting it? Huh? Shepard went to the moon of Klengadon in ME1 for some biotic colony mission for the Alliance. They changed the world to fit the story. "Hey, let's change this. No one will notice."

And this "My Shepard" is coming back to bite the writers in the arse. I have to agree this is not role playing anymore since I'm seeing none of my choices in the previous installments are making any difference. I can go full out renegade and justify it because I'm having a bad hair day or cramps. Then the next day be completely nice and all paragony and say nice things to Conrad.

The bottom line here is that Shepard is no saint. This paragon/renegade alignment thing is just a bunch of crap. Show me a saintly Shepard and look deep enough and you'll see a dark underbelly. It's gray. TIM isn't all bad either. He's gray, too. He has his own motivations which may be for the greater good. In TIM I actually see a tragic figure, like with Saren, who through his own faults will meet his downfall. I see this in Shepard, too, if the story were to be written from TIM's point of view. But people can't handle gray, so they're going to turn this into a simplistic paragon vs renegade; good vs. evil in which good will triumph in the end.

I've been absent from these boards while I've been playing through Skyrim. I've seen people on that board arguing about how it's impossible to be good in that game, and how a certain character must die because of how many thousands that character has killed even though that character is doing good now. I had only to look at the body count of my own character to see that my own character cannot make that judgement because she was not any different. Over 22 game weeks had killed over 1100 people. Granted not as spectacular as Shepard did with that asteroid, but then did Shepard have a choice?

That asteroid probably saved those 300,000 Batarians from a far worse fate. So was doing that a bad thing? I don't know. But from the story line it doesn't matter anyway. In that way it makes him/her just the anti-TIM.

None of our decisions will matter except in cameo appearances. There will be no "dire consequences" to any actions we took.

Next time, Bioware, don't do a series like this. If you decide to make a series, make each game independent of each other. Just use the same world or galaxy, and set the games far enough apart, and make the players create different characters. IOW make each a great independent RPG. That way the players won't be disappointed.

[AlexXIV]

AquamanOS wrote...

People need to stop with this "My Shepard" garbage, and understand the limitations and mechanics of game design. It's not magic to rewrite itself at your every whim. There's a plot, and you have to follow it, same as ME1 and ME2. You aren't Shepard, you are simply controlling the Shepard character that Bioware created and wrote. And while you have a few options as to go about it, you are still limited by what they will allow you to do. In ME1 you had to fight Saren and oppose Soveriegn. In ME2 you had to join Cerberus and take out the Collectors. And in ME3 you have to oppose Cerberus and take out the Reapers. You've never ever been given an alternate path. The only real option is whether or not Shepard is nice or nasty about doing it. And this has been going on for every RPG ever.

And that's why we should accept poor writing, plotholes and cheesy dialogues because we have no life and nothing to do other than playing games. So we should be happy that we have any games, no matter how bad.

[AlexXIV]

Julia343 wrote...

movieguyabw wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AquamanOS wrote...

Yep. Renegade Shep might have been cool with Cerberus when they both fighting to take out the Collectors, but even a Renegade Shep wants the Reapers taken out. They'd never try to mess with them to take control. They saw first hand what happened to the last guy who tried to make nice with the Reapers.

And that's BS. Taking full control of Shep like that..how is that a role-playing game anymore, when the player cannot even take rational and logical options presented?

It's even more BS because the ending allows Shep to do exactly the same thing Cerberus wants.

I agree.  Maybe your Shepard wouldn't want to take control of the Reapers, but that doesn't mean *everyone's* Shepard wouldn't.  If the Illusive Man tells my Female Shepard "Hey, I want to control the Reapers, and use them as weapons", I damn well want the option that says "Oh, cool.  I like that idea."    Moreover, I've been thinking of doing a playthrough, where I play as though Shepard is indoctrinated already.  That Shepard would not want the Reapers taken out.

And see? This is the entire problem.

Did anyone notice something strange about Klengadon? In ME1 it was an arid terrestrial world that had dust storms sort of like Mars that had been grazed by a mass driver weapon about 37 million yrs ago. In ME2 it suddenly became a gas giant with a 37 million yr old derelict reaper orbiting it? Huh? Shepard went to the moon of Klengadon in ME1 for some biotic colony mission for the Alliance. They changed the world to fit the story. "Hey, let's change this. No one will notice."

And this "My Shepard" is coming back to bite the writers in the arse. I have to agree this is not role playing anymore since I'm seeing none of my choices in the previous installments are making any difference. I can go full out renegade and justify it because I'm having a bad hair day or cramps. Then the next day be completely nice and all paragony and say nice things to Conrad.

The bottom line here is that Shepard is no saint. This paragon/renegade alignment thing is just a bunch of crap. Show me a saintly Shepard and look deep enough and you'll see a dark underbelly. It's gray. TIM isn't all bad either. He's gray, too. He has his own motivations which may be for the greater good. In TIM I actually see a tragic figure, like with Saren, who through his own faults will meet his downfall. I see this in Shepard, too, if the story were to be written from TIM's point of view. But people can't handle gray, so they're going to turn this into a simplistic paragon vs renegade; good vs. evil in which good will triumph in the end.

I've been absent from these boards while I've been playing through Skyrim. I've seen people on that board arguing about how it's impossible to be good in that game, and how a certain character must die because of how many thousands that character has killed even though that character is doing good now. I had only to look at the body count of my own character to see that my own character cannot make that judgement because she was not any different. Over 22 game weeks had killed over 1100 people. Granted not as spectacular as Shepard did with that asteroid, but then did Shepard have a choice?

That asteroid probably saved those 300,000 Batarians from a far worse fate. So was doing that a bad thing? I don't know. But from the story line it doesn't matter anyway. In that way it makes him/her just the anti-TIM.

None of our decisions will matter except in cameo appearances. There will be no "dire consequences" to any actions we took.

Next time, Bioware, don't do a series like this. If you decide to make a series, make each game independent of each other. Just use the same world or galaxy, and set the games far enough apart, and make the players create different characters. IOW make each a great independent RPG. That way the players won't be disappointed.

Aye I agree they should not make import save games. Because they just screw it up anyway. But honestly, they don't do it to write a story. They do it to sell their game to certain people who have expectations if they say that they have choices that matter and carry over. Even if they don't really.

[Kyria Nyriese]

For those of you who support Cerberus and are not happy with being forced to fight against them, welcome to the world of those of us who despised Cerberus yet in ME 2 we were given no way to do anything about it until the end of the game, where we could tell TIM to f* off and blow the Collector base.

There is a story to be told, the story has to take a specific direction and there are so many variables due to the choices we have in the game it is virtually impossible to take them all into account and write the story into the direction it needs to go. At least not if we ever want to see the continuation of the game, not until computers get a little smarter and can rewrite the software as we make the decisions.

[Frostmourne86]

Just because EDI says that there are 150 operatives in Cerberus doesn't mean that there are only 150 people in the organization. To me the "three cells" comment by EDI are Cerberus' Military, Science/R&D, and Financial/Shell/Front corporations - they have many smaller cells that don't know about the others - the Lazarus Cell is one; I think that TIM mentions that Miranda and Jacob are two of his best operatives - and you have the cell on the Normandy - 2 operatives out of 150, and 24 support personnel.

[ziloe]

Farbautisonn wrote...

AquamanOS wrote... this has been going on for every RPG ever.

-Every Crpg ever.

I once sold out my mates to slavers during a pen and paper session. I saved them again later, but they were somewhat miffed and killed me. Had to reroll as an elf as punishment.

HA! I did something similar too. Except my betrayal ended up winning us the mission, because I then betrayed the baddie. They still hated me for it though, lol. But still, good ol' diplomacy. XD

[Frostmourne86]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

A) You gave them what they wanted so they don't need you anymore

Or

B ) TIM deliberately placed the reaper tech in you to be his pawn against the reapers. The reapers were suppose to hack you and then he was suppose to use that control chip in your brain to make sure you undermine the reapers when it his interest are involved and eventually have you weaken them via sabotage from the inside out then TIM foundout the chip won't work shep being hack is greater then a chip and so he now must get you back and retool you and if he can't retool you he'll kill you so you can't be used as a weapon against him and his interest. One or the other.

He was never implanted with Reaper technology.

[Gabey5]

There is no logical reason if TIM is still in charge and has not been indoctrinated

[ItsFreakinJesus]

Julia343 wrote...

movieguyabw wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AquamanOS wrote...

Yep. Renegade Shep might have been cool with Cerberus when they both fighting to take out the Collectors, but even a Renegade Shep wants the Reapers taken out. They'd never try to mess with them to take control. They saw first hand what happened to the last guy who tried to make nice with the Reapers.

And that's BS. Taking full control of Shep like that..how is that a role-playing game anymore, when the player cannot even take rational and logical options presented?

It's even more BS because the ending allows Shep to do exactly the same thing Cerberus wants.

I agree.  Maybe your Shepard wouldn't want to take control of the Reapers, but that doesn't mean *everyone's* Shepard wouldn't.  If the Illusive Man tells my Female Shepard "Hey, I want to control the Reapers, and use them as weapons", I damn well want the option that says "Oh, cool.  I like that idea."    Moreover, I've been thinking of doing a playthrough, where I play as though Shepard is indoctrinated already.  That Shepard would not want the Reapers taken out.

And see? This is the entire problem.

Did anyone notice something strange about Klengadon? In ME1 it was an arid terrestrial world that had dust storms sort of like Mars that had been grazed by a mass driver weapon about 37 million yrs ago. In ME2 it suddenly became a gas giant with a 37 million yr old derelict reaper orbiting it? Huh? Shepard went to the moon of Klengadon in ME1 for some biotic colony mission for the Alliance. They changed the world to fit the story. "Hey, let's change this. No one will notice."

And this "My Shepard" is coming back to bite the writers in the arse. I have to agree this is not role playing anymore since I'm seeing none of my choices in the previous installments are making any difference. I can go full out renegade and justify it because I'm having a bad hair day or cramps. Then the next day be completely nice and all paragony and say nice things to Conrad.

The bottom line here is that Shepard is no saint. This paragon/renegade alignment thing is just a bunch of crap. Show me a saintly Shepard and look deep enough and you'll see a dark underbelly. It's gray. TIM isn't all bad either. He's gray, too. He has his own motivations which may be for the greater good. In TIM I actually see a tragic figure, like with Saren, who through his own faults will meet his downfall. I see this in Shepard, too, if the story were to be written from TIM's point of view. But people can't handle gray, so they're going to turn this into a simplistic paragon vs renegade; good vs. evil in which good will triumph in the end.

I've been absent from these boards while I've been playing through Skyrim. I've seen people on that board arguing about how it's impossible to be good in that game, and how a certain character must die because of how many thousands that character has killed even though that character is doing good now. I had only to look at the body count of my own character to see that my own character cannot make that judgement because she was not any different. Over 22 game weeks had killed over 1100 people. Granted not as spectacular as Shepard did with that asteroid, but then did Shepard have a choice?

That asteroid probably saved those 300,000 Batarians from a far worse fate. So was doing that a bad thing? I don't know. But from the story line it doesn't matter anyway. In that way it makes him/her just the anti-TIM.

None of our decisions will matter except in cameo appearances. There will be no "dire consequences" to any actions we took.

Next time, Bioware, don't do a series like this. If you decide to make a series, make each game independent of each other. Just use the same world or galaxy, and set the games far enough apart, and make the players create different characters. IOW make each a great independent RPG. That way the players won't be disappointed.

Klendagon was never a gas giant in ME2.  The Reaper was orbiting Mnemosyne.

[Julia343]

Thanks. I'm going through ME2 one last time. It's been like a year.

[Arppis]

DJBare wrote...

Ends justifying the means is just the same as "I can sleep easy at night"; let me explain, the renegades justify the involuntary sacrifices by saying it will save the galaxy, therefore you are placing yourselves in a position of comfort in much the same way paragons do.

I sometimes dislike how short-sighted it is. It's sometimes downright lazy, the easy way out. With just a little more creativity or effort, you could get much better sollution that helps everyone, instead of just few.

But that's just my opinion on the matter.

[Draconis6666]

As far as TIM being indoctrinated if he is its not like it just happened. The comics about him would make it so that he has been Indoctrinated all along, but there are levels of indoctrination, Saren was clearly not as indoctrinated as the indoctrinated people he had at his base on virmire. So TIM may have had some level of autonomy and still been indoctrinated. Its possible that everything he has done including ME 2 was all to the Reaper's benefit, The reapers may have decided that risking the loss of the collectors and the failure of the baby reaper plan was worth it in the long run.

[CostinRaz]

Didn't Bioware specifically come out and say TIM will not be Saren 2.0?

There are reasons why TIM would turn even on Renegade Shepard...I just haven't found them yet but I guess Bioware has. I would love to thing the decision to make Cerberus the enemy was taken by the writing team but I doubt it.

Still we shall see.

[Dean_the_Young]

No, the point of those initial comics was that TIM WASN'T indoctrinated, that he was a clear outlier to the rest based on circumstance not intended by the Reapers. TIM shows none of the signs, weaknesses, or beliefs of the indoctrinated, nor does the plot of the books or games make any sense if he was, since the most active actor against the Reapers would be the Reaper's own tool.

TIM hasn't been indoctrinated all along. TIM gets indoctrinated between the events of Retribution and ME3.

[Dean_the_Young]

CostinRaz wrote...

Didn't Bioware specifically come out and say TIM will not be Saren 2.0?

Depends what you think made Saren, Saren. Motivation, or result of the person?


They won't have the same motivations. Saren wanted voluntary submission in hopes of being spared after the Reaper's victorious Reaping. TIM wants to gain control of the Reapers before they win.


The result, however, is indoctrination for both of them. That's the part people don't like.

There are reasons why TIM would turn even on Renegade Shepard...I just haven't found them yet but I guess Bioware has. I would love to thing the decision to make Cerberus the enemy was taken by the writing team but I doubt it.

Still we shall see.

Bioware's reason is pretty much 'because', with a possible 'because I didn't think you'd help.'


Frankly, had Cerberus been in a smaller role it could have been both a betrayer and an ally.

[CostinRaz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


They won't have the same motivations. Saren wanted voluntary submission in hopes of being spared after the Reaper's victorious Reaping. TIM wants to gain control of the Reapers before they win.


The result, however, is indoctrination for both of them. That's the part people don't like.

What I meant is that didn't Bioware say TIM won't be indoctrinated? Yes yes there's the leak but that's not the final version of the game script.

Modifié par CostinRaz, 20 février 2012 - 11:42 .

[Malanek]

Has he been confirmed to be indoctrinated? I took a break from following a few months back and it wasn't then. I guess if he is that is a little bit of a lame end for a good character. But then I guess he could be biding his time trapped in his own body like Paul Grayson was, waiting for the right moment to take back control.

[LiquidLogic2020]

Because indoctrination. Oh how I hate thee indoctrination, such a lazy plot device.

[ziloe]

LiquidLogic2020 wrote...

Because indoctrination. Oh how I hate thee indoctrination, such a lazy plot device.

I'd say so, though, I still question that method too. I can totally see the God Complex bit. 

[100k]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Because it's easier to write one story with no deviation than one story with little deviation.

Youch. Truff hurts.

[Dean_the_Young]

CostinRaz wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


They won't have the same motivations. Saren wanted voluntary submission in hopes of being spared after the Reaper's victorious Reaping. TIM wants to gain control of the Reapers before they win.


The result, however, is indoctrination for both of them. That's the part people don't like.

What I meant is that didn't Bioware say TIM won't be indoctrinated? Yes yes there's the leak but that's not the final version of the game script.

No, they never claimed he wouldn't be indoctrinated.

Given that TIM's indoctrination is not only in the leak, but also the Art of Mass Effect...

[incinerator950]

DJBare wrote...

Ends justifying the means is just the same as "I can sleep easy at night"; let me explain, the renegades justify the involuntary sacrifices by saying it will save the galaxy, therefore you are placing yourselves in a position of comfort in much the same way paragons do.

So what happens when you're neither confortable with either option?