233 réponses à ce sujet

[mummio2]

Arppis wrote...

Too true and person has to have his/her head up in their bums to not see what Illusive Man really is.

For my part there's no problem with TIM being evil, i have to complaint if tim's going to be just a fool character in team rocket style

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Draconis6666 wrote...
If you dont' study it you never WILL reach understanding. You're giving up before actually attempting. Such a defeateist attitude is unworthy of a human being.
Why don't you just roll out the welecome carpet for the reaeprs then?

Yes the researches might get indoctrinated. But gess what - you know what indoctrination does. You can take some measures. They may not work, but hte CB is in a locked system with only one way in or out. I'd say that's about as controlled and safe enviroment as you can get with indoctrination.

There's risks, but they are not that big - loosing a few scinetists is pittence.

I asked you again - what will you do once the reaeprs come. Answer me tha. How will you fight agaisnt them? How will you fight against indoctrination?

If you do not have an answer, then you got nothing.
Studying indoctrination gives you a CHANCE...which is more then you offer.

OH, and since apprenty TIM does crack it in ME3, then we obviously CAN understand it.
[/quote]

Based off what the leaked script says happens to TIM the argument that TIM "does crack it" would actualy just support my claim that its foolish to study it. At no point do I say dont study reaper tech, the point is to study the basics of reaper tech before leaping into the study of indoctrination.

Go study how an atomic bomb works without understanding the basics and see how long it takes you to blow yourself up. We have at best a limited understanding of reaper tech from technology used to create the Thanix, EDI, etc, none of which come from tech associated with indoctrination or how it works. We simply have no understanding of it. The very point of indoctrination is that the Reapers WANT you to study it, doing so just plays directly into their plans. [/quote]

Except that what TIM and Cerberus have been doing for hte past 20 years. Studying reaper tech in all of it's forms.

And no, the reapers don't  WANT us to study it. Study implies the risk of finding out something usefull, something to be used agasint them.
And we do have some understanding. Little by little, we know more. You approch studying indoctrination like it leads 100% to indoctrination and ntohing usefull...which is a blatant lie.


So I demand you to asnwer the bolded. I will ignore any and all of your further posts untill you answer it.

How do you plan to fight agaisnt indoctrination?
What course of action do you propose?


[quote]
The only thing we do know is that Indoctrination does not happen instantly, your far better off devoting your time to trying to find ways to destroy the reapers quickly and effectively before indoctrination can fully take hold than you are wasting time trying to understand something that is highly likely to simply subvert you to the reapers cause and provide nothing in return or in fact aid the reapers. [/quote]

So you want to attack the reapers wihout ANY defense agaisnt their GREATEST WEAPON?
And you blame me of wasting time?

You're liek a cavemen, too afraid of fire to study it. Yes, ti might burn you. But when the forest is on fire tomorrow, and you're sorounded by all sides with fire, knowign how fire works might just save you.


[quote]
Putting this aside, given Cerberus's track record even if you WERE going to experiment on Indoctrination Cerberus is the LAST organization you should let do it. They have been shown time and time again to be completely inept. The only thing they have ever actualy been shown to do without ***ing up completely was to resurrect shepard and rebuild the normandy, and they almost ****ed up resurrecting shepard since miranda had to wake Shepard up early because of wilson.
[/quote]


This bollocks argument that has been debunked a zillion times before.
Infaliting Cerberus faliures does not help your case.

Cerberus gets results, that's all that matters. They have spent the longest time studying reaper tech and they know the most about it. 

[mummio2]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Actualy thanks for pointing that out, since its another Cerberus experiment that went horribly wrong and ended up with almost everyone dead and the primary subject of the experiment set lose on the galaxy to cause mayhem

Why horribly wrong? Obviously the project was about scientific analysis on improving human biotic powers, not about creating an army of biotic soldiers.

[The Empress]

mummio2 wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Too true and person has to have his/her head up in their bums to not see what Illusive Man really is.

For my part there's no problem with TIM being evil, i have to complaint if tim's going to be just a fool character in team rocket style

Can you imagine TIM "blasting off"? lol

[Draconis6666]

Cerberus does NOT get results that's the entire point, Cerberus ****s up over and over and then needs Shepard to go fix their **** ups, either indirectly as in ME 1 or by specifically asking him, repeatedly, in ME 2. All the time they have spent researching reaper tech and they still don't understand it and still have on clue how indoctrination actually works.

[Draconis6666]

mummio2 wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Actualy thanks for pointing that out, since its another Cerberus experiment that went horribly wrong and ended up with almost everyone dead and the primary subject of the experiment set lose on the galaxy to cause mayhem

Why horribly wrong? Obviously the project was about scientific analysis on improving human biotic powers, not about creating an army of biotic soldiers.

Because the project's subjects escaped and killed the entire staff, then escaped from cerberus's control entirely going so far as to completely turn against them to the point of wanting to kill them on sight, which kind of makes it hard to do further study on the primary subject to continue the project or make its results applicable for wide spread use.

They have only the initial data and no data on long term gains of anything they did, for all they know the effects of any enhancement they recorded were temporary or decay over time, they dont know. They have no way to find out because they can't study their only way to find out would be to study the subject they no longer have, and thats assuming that any of the original data even survived the destruction of the facility, though its probably safe to assume a good amount of it did TIM isn't the kind of person whos likely to not make sure data is backed up in multiple places.

In terms of Cerberus experiiments its more successful than most, but its still clearly not a massive success, expecialy if you then consider that this was likely used in their attempt to turn Gillian into the ultimate Biotic which also was a horribly botched experiment.

[Eclipse_9990]

Cerberus=Fail Organization.

[mummio2]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Cerberus does NOT get results that's the entire point, Cerberus ****s up over and over and then needs Shepard to go fix their **** ups, either indirectly as in ME 1 or by specifically asking him, repeatedly, in ME 2. All the time they have spent researching reaper tech and they still don't understand it and still have on clue how indoctrination actually works.

It's just evident Cerberus use to bite off more than they can chew, however that may be it still makes no sense at all that TIM was always been indoctrinated and evil (revelation and retribution which his real thoughts about his war against reapers are unequivocally written), neither the simple fact that "uhuh he was not indoctrinated but he has been between me2 and me3" cause this is too simplistic.

Modifié par mummio2, 21 février 2012 - 11:34 .

[Farbautisonn]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Giving the station to Cerberus is stupid for the simple fact that Cerberus ****s up every single thing they experiment on....lets go through the list

Project Overlord - Experimenting on Geth - ****ed up almost allowed crazed VI that could control machines to escape off world.

Project to Create Rachni Super Soldiers - Rachni escaped killed cerberus crew on station then escaped to other planets

Experimenting on Thorian Creepers - Creepers went crazy and killed everyone but a few hold outs

Implanting Grayson with reaper tech - Grayson escaped went on crazed rampage

Project Lazarus - Shepard had to be revived early because a key member of the staff was actually a traitor and killed off almost the entire staff.

etc..

The only completely successful project appears to be the building of the Normandy SR-2 technicaly I guess that's up for debate too since it ended up confiscated and rebuilt by the Alliance

yes these are clearly the people to give dangerous advanced reaper/collector tech to to study!

Lets examine this a bit more closely shall we? 

Project overlord. Outcome, a potential way of communication with or even ruling over the geth. Experiment highly unethical, cruel, vile etc. Yes. But potential gain. Extravagant and a force multiplier that cant be imagined. Send geth forces into a Reaper and have them cannibalize it termites just as they did in Talis quest. Is that worth it, worth the "almost" ? Hell yes.

Rachni escaped. Why? Because the mercs who were there were negligent. They treated them like animals, not like PoWs. Replay ME1. 

Thorian creepers. Went beserk AFTER you killed the thorian. Project was going nicely up to that point. Security was again less than optimal, but a psychic bond acros half a galaxy isnt really some bond you normally or even feasably can take into account.

Lazerus: Betrayal by outside party. Could Cerberus have prevented that. Nope. Betrayal happens everywehere even without indoctrination. Our own history shows that people will betray their own for almost any reason. CIA spymasters have sold out their own for a mere pittance with ramafications that were pretty much staggering and most of the Russian nuclear programme was more or less stolen from the US by traitors. Could america have avoided that? Not likely.

The normandy also employs reaper tech. EDI has cyberwarfare and jamming routines etc that originate from research on reaper tech and even scavanged reaper tech itself.

No EDI, No Normandy Mark 2, No chance. You would have flown through the Omega four relay and gotten eaten.

What you are listing are a series of crap incidents but noone knows about the Cerberus projects that actually went well. Apparently Cerberus was able to get you weapon and armour adapted from the collectors. I dont think they just found it on the streets of the citadel or bought it on Omega.

"Subject Zero" was more a victim of outsourcing a project to sadistic and cruel pseudo scientists akin to Mengele rather than  planned. 

And we havent got a clue what happens in Asari, Turian, or Salarian space. Half of Sovereign is missing from the citadel. Assuming that even half of those parts had some kind of indoctrination power akin to what the pieces Cerberus collects has, Im betting that the STG and other spectres and special intelligence and black ops units have been just as busy, if not more busy than Shepard. The artillery on the Normandy, for instance,  is a direct derivation of reaper tech that the Turians secured.

And then we havent even touched on what the batarians and other, "less morally enlightened" races are up to.

Thinking that Cerberous is the only grouping that has blood on its hand, the only group that ****s up on a regular basis with this tech, is abit.... optimistic.... if I may use that term.

[Draconis6666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Cerberus does NOT get results that's the entire point,

Yes they do. They stopped the batarian attempt to assassinate the Council.

They stole Shepard's body from the Shadow Broker.

They brought Shepard back to life.

They lured the Collectors to Horizon and drove them off, saving hundreds of thousands of lives, and they successfully tricked them again at the Collector ship. They then defeated the Collectors entirely.

They located the gun that created the rift on Klendagon and found the Reaper it was targetting. Then then obtained the IFF from it.

When the turians crashed the Grayson experiment Cerberus managed to terminate him before he could do much damage and they even stole back their data from the turians.

Cerberus determined the Shadow Broker's location and neutralized him.

This isn't even touching upon their successes in ME1 or prior to ME1.

Half of these things arent actualy achieved by Cerberus

Cerberus doesnt steal Shepards body Liara does

Cerberus doesnt defeat the Collectors on Horizion - Shepard does (and not even all that well)

Cerberus doesnt sucessfuly retrieve the IFF - Shepard does

Cerberus didnt neutralize the Shadow Broker - Liara and Shepard did

Cerberus didnt defeat the collectors - Shepard did

Most of Cerberus's actual Successes depend heavily on Shepard of his crew this is not an endorsement of the capability of Cerberus personel to get results its an endorsement of their inability to do so, so they have to turn to someone who can.

[Farbautisonn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Cerberus does NOT get results that's the entire point,

Yes they do. They stopped the batarian attempt to assassinate the Council.

They stole Shepard's body from the Shadow Broker.

They brought Shepard back to life.

They lured the Collectors to Horizon and drove them off, saving hundreds of thousands of lives, and they successfully tricked them again at the Collector ship. They then defeated the Collectors entirely.

They located the gun that created the rift on Klendagon and found the Reaper it was targetting. Then then obtained the IFF from it.

When the turians crashed the Grayson experiment Cerberus managed to terminate him before he could do much damage and they even stole back their data from the turians.

Cerberus determined the Shadow Broker's location and neutralized him.

This isn't even touching upon their successes in ME1 or prior to ME1.

-Oh. This too.

[Farbautisonn]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Cerberus does NOT get results that's the entire point,

Yes they do. They stopped the batarian attempt to assassinate the Council.

They stole Shepard's body from the Shadow Broker.

They brought Shepard back to life.

They lured the Collectors to Horizon and drove them off, saving hundreds of thousands of lives, and they successfully tricked them again at the Collector ship. They then defeated the Collectors entirely.

They located the gun that created the rift on Klendagon and found the Reaper it was targetting. Then then obtained the IFF from it.

When the turians crashed the Grayson experiment Cerberus managed to terminate him before he could do much damage and they even stole back their data from the turians.

Cerberus determined the Shadow Broker's location and neutralized him.

This isn't even touching upon their successes in ME1 or prior to ME1.

Half of these things arent actualy achieved by Cerberus

Cerberus doesnt steal Shepards body Liara does

Cerberus doesnt defeat the Collectors on Horizion - Shepard does (and not even all that well)

Cerberus doesnt sucessfuly retrieve the IFF - Shepard does

Cerberus didnt neutralize the Shadow Broker - Liara and Shepard did

Cerberus didnt defeat the collectors - Shepard did

Most of Cerberus's actual Successes depend heavily on Shepard of his crew this is not an endorsement of the capability of Cerberus personel to get results its an endorsement of their inability to do so, so they have to turn to someone who can.

-Could someone besides Shepard have done it? Yes or no? 

[Draconis6666]

mummio2 wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Cerberus does NOT get results that's the entire point, Cerberus ****s up over and over and then needs Shepard to go fix their **** ups, either indirectly as in ME 1 or by specifically asking him, repeatedly, in ME 2. All the time they have spent researching reaper tech and they still don't understand it and still have on clue how indoctrination actually works.

It's just evident Cerberus use to bite off more than they can chew, however that may be it still makes no sense at all that TIM was always been indoctrinated and evil (revelation and retribution which his real thoughts about his war against reapers are unequivocally written), neither the simple fact that "uhuh he was not indoctrinated but he has been between me2 and me3" cause this is too simplistic.

Except Saren thought what he was doing was saving the galaxy from the reapers also, the fact that he believes what he is doing is to fight against the reapers does not mean it actualy is. The point would be that if he IS indoctrinated that he has been for a long time on much less invasive level, with it growing progressively stronger, it has been shown that indoctrination can be fought against conciously, its also possible that he fought against it subconciously and that allowed him some measure of autonomy that has slowly decreased. I dont think this is the case and honestly i doubt hes even indoctrinated based on what they have said about changes to how they want him to be in ME 3, but if he we're it does not nessicarily have to be a "it all happened between ME 2 and 3" it could easily be merely something that triggered a catalyst that threw his already partial indoctrination over the line.

[Draconis6666]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Cerberus does NOT get results that's the entire point,

Yes they do. They stopped the batarian attempt to assassinate the Council.

They stole Shepard's body from the Shadow Broker.

They brought Shepard back to life.

They lured the Collectors to Horizon and drove them off, saving hundreds of thousands of lives, and they successfully tricked them again at the Collector ship. They then defeated the Collectors entirely.

They located the gun that created the rift on Klendagon and found the Reaper it was targetting. Then then obtained the IFF from it.

When the turians crashed the Grayson experiment Cerberus managed to terminate him before he could do much damage and they even stole back their data from the turians.

Cerberus determined the Shadow Broker's location and neutralized him.

This isn't even touching upon their successes in ME1 or prior to ME1.

Half of these things arent actualy achieved by Cerberus

Cerberus doesnt steal Shepards body Liara does

Cerberus doesnt defeat the Collectors on Horizion - Shepard does (and not even all that well)

Cerberus doesnt sucessfuly retrieve the IFF - Shepard does

Cerberus didnt neutralize the Shadow Broker - Liara and Shepard did

Cerberus didnt defeat the collectors - Shepard did

Most of Cerberus's actual Successes depend heavily on Shepard of his crew this is not an endorsement of the capability of Cerberus personel to get results its an endorsement of their inability to do so, so they have to turn to someone who can.

-Could someone besides Shepard have done it? Yes or no? 

Impossible to prove one way or the other

[Farbautisonn]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Cerberus does NOT get results that's the entire point,

Yes they do. They stopped the batarian attempt to assassinate the Council.

They stole Shepard's body from the Shadow Broker.

They brought Shepard back to life.

They lured the Collectors to Horizon and drove them off, saving hundreds of thousands of lives, and they successfully tricked them again at the Collector ship. They then defeated the Collectors entirely.

They located the gun that created the rift on Klendagon and found the Reaper it was targetting. Then then obtained the IFF from it.

When the turians crashed the Grayson experiment Cerberus managed to terminate him before he could do much damage and they even stole back their data from the turians.

Cerberus determined the Shadow Broker's location and neutralized him.

This isn't even touching upon their successes in ME1 or prior to ME1.

Half of these things arent actualy achieved by Cerberus

Cerberus doesnt steal Shepards body Liara does

Cerberus doesnt defeat the Collectors on Horizion - Shepard does (and not even all that well)

Cerberus doesnt sucessfuly retrieve the IFF - Shepard does

Cerberus didnt neutralize the Shadow Broker - Liara and Shepard did

Cerberus didnt defeat the collectors - Shepard did

Most of Cerberus's actual Successes depend heavily on Shepard of his crew this is not an endorsement of the capability of Cerberus personel to get results its an endorsement of their inability to do so, so they have to turn to someone who can.

-Could someone besides Shepard have done it? Yes or no? 

Impossible to prove one way or the other

-So why assume that Shep was the only one who could? 

[Draconis6666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Half of these things arent actualy achieved by Cerberus...

That is completely untrue.

Cerberus doesnt steal Shepards body Liara does

With the help of Cerberus. Without them she could not have succeeded. It was a joint effort.

Cerberus doesnt defeat the Collectors on Horizion - Shepard does (and not even all that well)

Same as above and it was a huge victory. Two thirds of the colony were saved. Prior to that any colony that was hit by the Collectors was lost entirely. This is a major victory.

Cerberus doesnt sucessfuly retrieve the IFF - Shepard does

No, if Cerberus hadn't located and extracted it in derelict Reaper Shepard would have had nothing to retrieve. After all, he can't very well study every inch of the Reaper himself and take it part to find the IFF now can he?

Cerberus didnt neutralize the Shadow Broker - Liara and Shepard did

Again, Cerberus made it possible. It was their intel that set Liara on the right track so they deserve some of the credit.

Cerberus didnt defeat the collectors - Shepard did

No, Shepard and Cerberus did. Shepard lead the team and he shot things on the ground. Cerberus provided the intel, Cerberus provided the personnel, Cerberus provided the strategizing, Cerberus provided most of the weapons, Cerberus provided the ships and vehicles, and Cerberus provided all the money. They arguably deserve more credit than Shepard does.

All that does is further prove that Cerberus is sucessful in a support role it in no way proves that they are competent to give full control over advanced alien technology with potential disasterious side effects with no supervision which is basicaly what you do.  

Aside from that Cerberus hardly provided very many actual useful personel to the mission since all the cerberus crew ended up being completely useless during the collector mission aside form Jacob and Miranda.

[Draconis6666]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Cerberus does NOT get results that's the entire point,

Yes they do. They stopped the batarian attempt to assassinate the Council.

They stole Shepard's body from the Shadow Broker.

They brought Shepard back to life.

They lured the Collectors to Horizon and drove them off, saving hundreds of thousands of lives, and they successfully tricked them again at the Collector ship. They then defeated the Collectors entirely.

They located the gun that created the rift on Klendagon and found the Reaper it was targetting. Then then obtained the IFF from it.

When the turians crashed the Grayson experiment Cerberus managed to terminate him before he could do much damage and they even stole back their data from the turians.

Cerberus determined the Shadow Broker's location and neutralized him.

This isn't even touching upon their successes in ME1 or prior to ME1.

Half of these things arent actualy achieved by Cerberus

Cerberus doesnt steal Shepards body Liara does

Cerberus doesnt defeat the Collectors on Horizion - Shepard does (and not even all that well)

Cerberus doesnt sucessfuly retrieve the IFF - Shepard does

Cerberus didnt neutralize the Shadow Broker - Liara and Shepard did

Cerberus didnt defeat the collectors - Shepard did

Most of Cerberus's actual Successes depend heavily on Shepard of his crew this is not an endorsement of the capability of Cerberus personel to get results its an endorsement of their inability to do so, so they have to turn to someone who can.

-Could someone besides Shepard have done it? Yes or no? 

Impossible to prove one way or the other

-So why assume that Shep was the only one who could? 

why assume that he isnt?  thats a flawed argument from inception because there is no evidence to support either claim because none of those things can be attempted by anyone other than shepard.

[mummio2]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Except Saren thought what he was doing was saving the galaxy from the reapers also, the fact that he believes what he is doing is to fight against the reapers does not mean it actualy is. The point would be that if he IS indoctrinated that he has been for a long time on much less invasive level, with it growing progressively stronger, it has been shown that indoctrination can be fought against conciously, its also possible that he fought against it subconciously and that allowed him some measure of autonomy that has slowly decreased. I dont think this is the case and honestly i doubt hes even indoctrinated based on what they have said about changes to how they want him to be in ME 3, but if he we're it does not nessicarily have to be a "it all happened between ME 2 and 3" it could easily be merely something that triggered a catalyst that threw his already partial indoctrination over the line.

Very different situations. Saren's progressevly lost his own will since he came to contact with the sovereign and he never thought about fighting reapers, contrariwise jack harper's mind survived to the contact with the reaper artefact on palaven, then he tried to persuade saren that the artefact should have been destroyed, and at last he founded cerberus to defend humanity, and it is evident by the novel he knows much more than saren about reapers.

Modifié par mummio2, 21 février 2012 - 11:50 .

[Farbautisonn]

Draconis6666 wrote...
why assume that he isnt?  thats a flawed argument from inception because there is no evidence to support either claim because none of those things can be attempted by anyone other than shepard.

-Because Shepard is only one man out of billions of sentient lifeform in the galaxy? Because there are spectres and others clearly more powerfull than him? Because Cerberous has before employed agents (like liara) to achieve the near impossible. Because Cerberous has an intelligence agency that apparently rivals or surpasses that of the Shadow broker.? Because, because, because? 

Sure, Shepard is one hell of a guy/gal. Near deity level. One in a million. One in a billion perhaps. But alone? Not likely.