233 réponses à ce sujet

[Alithinos]

mummio2 wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Too true and person has to have his/her head up in their bums to not see what Illusive Man really is.

For my part there's no problem with TIM being evil, i have to complaint if tim's going to be just a fool character in team rocket style

Bah... I think hes more like a Darth Vader type of bad guy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Draconis6666 wrote...

why assume that he isnt? 

Because individuals should never be considered irreplacable by default.

thats a flawed argument from inception because there is no evidence to support either claim because none of those things can be attempted by anyone other than shepard.

All of the things in ME2 could be attempted by someone other than Shepard. Building the team, attempting the missions: Shepard isn't necessary for them.

Heck, Shepard wasn't even necessary for building the team. Virtually everyone bar Tali and maybe Garrus joined up for reasons unrelated to Shepard.

[Draconis6666]

Miranda would never have been able to actually convince most of the team to follow her, and Jacob would never have wanted to lead them in the first place, the reason Shepard can is because his personality is not already defined. Miranda would never have opened Grunt's Case, Miranda would never have activated Legion, Miranda would never have successfully recruited Jack, Miranda would never have convinced Tali to join her, Without Shepard its likely Garrus would have have used live rounds not concussion rounds, and would have been far less trusting of their motives to actually help him assuming he even took the time to let them talk to him which is unlikely. So now to succesfully complete the suicide mission your left with a single tech expert option which is Kasumi, a single secondary team leader in Jacob and your missing two of your most powerful team members for holding the line. Miranda is also not the type to go off and do loyalty missions for team members aside from possibly jacob. She also would likely trust EDI once unshackled which could lead to lots of problems in the last mission. Without Garrus the normandy has no Thanix Cannon, Without Tali it has no multi-core shielding. There are numerous reasons why other characters would have massive issues in achieving their objectives simply because their personalities and mindsets are already established and are not as flexible as shepards because he/she is the protagonist. If you controlled Miranda she would not be Miranda she would be a completely different character that you created a personality for who happened to look like Miranda and share her name.

[Draconis6666]

Farbautisonn wrote...

. Because Cerberous has an intelligence agency that apparently rivals or surpasses that of the Shadow broker.? 

Clearly not true, the Shadow Broker knows what suit the illusive man wore last and who hes sleeping with, the Illusive man doesnt even know what race the Shadow Broker is let alone who he is or what he does from day to day. They only manage to come up with small pieces of data that allow Liara to pinpoint his location.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Giving the station to Cerberus is stupid for the simple fact that Cerberus ****s up every single thing they experiment on....lets go through the list

Project Overlord - Experimenting on Geth - ****ed up almost allowed crazed VI that could control machines to escape off world.

Project to Create Rachni Super Soldiers - Rachni escaped killed cerberus crew on station then escaped to other planets

Experimenting on Thorian Creepers - Creepers went crazy and killed everyone but a few hold outs

Implanting Grayson with reaper tech - Grayson escaped went on crazed rampage

Project Lazarus - Shepard had to be revived early because a key member of the staff was actually a traitor and killed off almost the entire staff.

etc..

The only completely successful project appears to be the building of the Normandy SR-2 technicaly I guess that's up for debate too since it ended up confiscated and rebuilt by the Alliance

yes these are clearly the people to give dangerous advanced reaper/collector tech to to study!

Erm...If you even try to label Normandy Mk2 and EDI as faliures, you clearly have some strange definition fo what constitues as research sucess.

[Dean_the_Young]

The only person Jacob had an objection to was Thane... who never had any friction with Miranda.

You're also making a false argument that Miranda, and Miranda alone, would have been put in charge of the operation.

As well as assuming that no other experts or teammembers would be sought.

As well that technologies can't be sought by other means as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Giving the station to Cerberus is stupid for the simple fact that Cerberus ****s up every single thing they experiment on....lets go through the list

Project Overlord - Experimenting on Geth - ****ed up almost allowed crazed VI that could control machines to escape off world.

Project to Create Rachni Super Soldiers - Rachni escaped killed cerberus crew on station then escaped to other planets

Experimenting on Thorian Creepers - Creepers went crazy and killed everyone but a few hold outs

Implanting Grayson with reaper tech - Grayson escaped went on crazed rampage

Project Lazarus - Shepard had to be revived early because a key member of the staff was actually a traitor and killed off almost the entire staff.

etc..

The only completely successful project appears to be the building of the Normandy SR-2 technicaly I guess that's up for debate too since it ended up confiscated and rebuilt by the Alliance

yes these are clearly the people to give dangerous advanced reaper/collector tech to to study!

Erm...If you even try to label Normandy Mk2 and EDI as faliures, you clearly have some strange definition fo what constitues as research sucess.

Or a failure, considering that on that list is a project that accomplished its goal, a project whose problems were because of foreign intervention rather than a Cerberus failure, and a project that didn't even belong to Cerberus at all.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Miranda would never have been able to actually convince most of the team to follow her, and Jacob would never have wanted to lead them in the first place, the reason Shepard can is because his personality is not already defined. Miranda would never have opened Grunt's Case, Miranda would never have activated Legion, Miranda would never have successfully recruited Jack, Miranda would never have convinced Tali to join her, Without Shepard its likely Garrus would have have used live rounds not concussion rounds, and would have been far less trusting of their motives to actually help him assuming he even took the time to let them talk to him which is unlikely. So now to succesfully complete the suicide mission your left with a single tech expert option which is Kasumi, a single secondary team leader in Jacob and your missing two of your most powerful team members for holding the line. Miranda is also not the type to go off and do loyalty missions for team members aside from possibly jacob. She also would likely trust EDI once unshackled which could lead to lots of problems in the last mission. Without Garrus the normandy has no Thanix Cannon, Without Tali it has no multi-core shielding. There are numerous reasons why other characters would have massive issues in achieving their objectives simply because their personalities and mindsets are already established and are not as flexible as shepards because he/she is the protagonist. If you controlled Miranda she would not be Miranda she would be a completely different character that you created a personality for who happened to look like Miranda and share her name.

And? Any character Miranda couldnt' recruit would be replaced by others. The galaxy isnt' lacking peopel with guns.
Cerberus has it's own troopers, can hire more mercs or can find other specialists.

your line of reasoning is: "If Jack/Grunt/Garrus sin't there, tehre will be no one to replace him/her and no one can ever replace them."

[Arppis]

mummio2 wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Too true and person has to have his/her head up in their bums to not see what Illusive Man really is.

For my part there's no problem with TIM being evil, i have to complaint if tim's going to be just a fool character in team rocket style

Haha, you know I've imagined that TIM will be the last boss of the game. Sitting inside some protective bubble and smoking his cigarettes, while mocking Shepard as he attacks the 3 power generators and turrets TIM summons. Then TIM always goes: "IMPOSSIBLE! " when Shepard destroys one of them.

Just like in some old 16-bit game!

[mummio2]

Draconis6666 wrote...


Clearly not true, the Shadow Broker knows what suit the illusive man wore last and who hes sleeping with

It's funny because he knows all this interesting things but he didn't know neither where tim did wear his suit nor where he was sleeping. Very useless informations for one who wants to kill the illusive man.

[Farbautisonn]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Clearly not true, the Shadow Broker knows what suit the illusive man wore last and who hes sleeping with, the Illusive man doesnt even know what race the Shadow Broker is let alone who he is or what he does from day to day. They only manage to come up with small pieces of data that allow Liara to pinpoint his location.

The "Shadow broker" organisation has been functioning likely centuries before the arrival of Cerberus. And yet the Shadow broker is sloppy enough, or Cerberus is skilled enough to get leads on his whereabouts. Something that apparently no other intelligence agency in the galaxy has. And no. Dont try to tell me that other species intelligence agencies would leave the SB alone. Information is king, everywhere. Any species would jump at the chance to replace him and take whatever information he had his hands on.

Liara gets her information from whom? The shadowbroker? Nope. He is actively working against her.

She gets her info from Cerberus and her own network, plus likely the intelligence services of other species. If she can do that, Im putting dollers to doughnuts that Cerberus could too.

[Draconis6666]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The only person Jacob had an objection to was Thane... who never had any friction with Miranda.

You're also making a false argument that Miranda, and Miranda alone, would have been put in charge of the operation.

As well as assuming that no other experts or teammembers would be sought.

As well that technologies can't be sought by other means as well.

True Jacob only objected to Thane however Jacob also would have launched the mission without gathering a full crew because he is always in favor of taking the fight to them over further preparation. I used Miranda as the example because Jacob and Miranda were specificaly mentioned, and its far more likely TIM would have chosen Miranda over Jacob as she was one of his top lieutenants and Jacob was already at that point her subordinate.

As for seeking other experts, possible but there is no reason to think that TIM's selection of candiates for the mission would have changed significantly, the specialists were chosen because they were the best canidates for the mission not because they were the best canidates for Shepard. The only character whos selection was likely influenced by shepard is Tali, unless you believe that TIM already knew Garrus was Archangle which is possible.

[Draconis6666]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

Clearly not true, the Shadow Broker knows what suit the illusive man wore last and who hes sleeping with, the Illusive man doesnt even know what race the Shadow Broker is let alone who he is or what he does from day to day. They only manage to come up with small pieces of data that allow Liara to pinpoint his location.

The "Shadow broker" organisation has been functioning likely centuries before the arrival of Cerberus. And yet the Shadow broker is sloppy enough, or Cerberus is skilled enough to get leads on his whereabouts. Something that apparently no other intelligence agency in the galaxy has. And no. Dont try to tell me that other species intelligence agencies would leave the SB alone. Information is king, everywhere. Any species would jump at the chance to replace him and take whatever information he had his hands on.

Liara gets her information from whom? The shadowbroker? Nope. He is actively working against her.

She gets her info from Cerberus and her own network, plus likely the intelligence services of other species. If she can do that, Im putting dollers to doughnuts that Cerberus could too.

Not arguing that im simply stating that Cerberus's Intelligence network clearly does not equal or excede the Shadow Brokers. It may very well be the next best thing and the only network capable of finding enough data to even get a lead on the Shadow Broker's location but that does not make it as good.

[mummio2]

Come to think of it the single fact that The Shadow Broker working for the reapers all the time (in ME1 working for Saren and in ME2 for the collectors) wanted to assassinate tim proofs the sudden tim and reapers alignment makes no sense.

[Draconis6666]

Except the shadow broker is not actually working for the reapers, Liara talks about how he was looking for ways to survive the reapers, and working with the collectors was part of that. He has no actual desire to work with the reapers or further their goals only his own, he doesn't care if killing TIM works against the reapers or not as long as doing so doesn't interfere with his own plans. Again I don't think TIM is actually indoctrinated or at least is not at the start of the game, but even if he were it is not a reason for the shadow broker to care about killing him.

[mummio2]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Except the shadow broker is not actually working for the reapers, Liara talks about how he was looking for ways to survive the reapers, and working with the collectors was part of that. He has no actual desire to work with the reapers or further their goals only his own, he doesn't care if killing TIM works against the reapers or not as long as doing so doesn't interfere with his own plans. Again I don't think TIM is actually indoctrinated or at least is not at the start of the game, but even if he were it is not a reason for the shadow broker to care about killing him.

Uhm i guess my poor english betrayed me this time.
I don't understand what you mean, because the shadow broker actually wanted to kill the illusive man and what could it be the reason if not to follow reapers istructions?

[Draconis6666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Where is it ever said the Shadow Broker wanted to kill the Illusive Man?

He'd want as much info on the Illusive Man as possible because others would want him dead and such information would be very valuable... and thus profitable to sell.

The SB is generally neutral to everybody. He was never even really on the Collector's/Reaper's side either, though I think you already know that.

This exactly, The Shadow Broker cares about the Shadow Broker and no one else. If we assume he did want to kill TIM for some reason, it would be, because doing so was beneficial to him personaly not to anyone else, the fact that someone else might find it beneficial is irrelevant or in the case that that other person was willing to pay him to do it. simply an additional bonus. He still would not do so unless he believed it beneficial to himself.

[mummio2]

Anyway i repeat that the thing is really annoying me is not tim being evil, but the writer choice to semplify the entire plot making cerberus and the reapers on the same side so that will be just two sides including all the good fellows and all the evil guys, and that's trivial. It's just like lord of the rings and other one billion of plots.

[mummio2]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Where is it ever said the Shadow Broker wanted to kill the Illusive Man?

He'd want as much info on the Illusive Man as possible because others would want him dead and such information would be very valuable... and thus profitable to sell.

The SB is generally neutral to everybody. He was never even really on the Collector's/Reaper's side either, though I think you already know that.

When you read the reports about miranda, it says "possible recruitment after the assassination of the illusive man", i don't really remember if it says so in english language too, because i played me2 in english and in my mother language, but i can assure that in my language is written so.

Modifié par mummio2, 21 février 2012 - 12:49 .

[Draconis6666]

It does but it does not specifically state that the shadow broker plans to do so, it could simply mean that the Shadow Broker knows of numerous attempts to assassinate TIM that will be made that have a potential to be successful.

[mummio2]

Well ok sorry that's true, it is not specifically mentioned who wants to assassinate tim. I still can't imagine who would if not the shadow broker itself or the collectors.

Modifié par mummio2, 21 février 2012 - 12:54 .

[Draconis6666]

I think if its one of the two its most likely to be the Shadow Broker himself because he see's Cerberus as competition and something to remove before it can grow further. Which is fitting of his nature of actions being in his interest before anyone else.

If that's the case then it doesn't really disprove TIM working for the reapers, though if its the collectors that would seem to do so. However we still don't know enough about the Reapers either, lets assume TIM is indoctrinated, but its by a completely different reaper than Harbinger, suppose this reaper has a completely different plan for how to achieve the Reaper's ultimate goal and is willing to thwart Harbinger's because it interferes with his own, and vice versa, We don't know what level of cooperation there is between the reapers other than that they all participate in the invasion, if they have individual goals and agendas on how to achieve their overall strategy of reaping the galaxy we have no clue.

[vonSlash]

Because when you are only permitted by your superiors to write one story, making the controversial terrorist and his agents into enemies is more palatable to the public than making them into allies.

Besides, with Saren dead, the Collectors dead, and Harbinger treated as a joke, they needed to provide a face for the antagonists so that players would have someone to hate. Casting the entirety of the opposition as faceless Cthulhu space monsters probably wouldn't have sold as many copies.