in the comic it explains that he has reaper tech in him from trying to save his comrade when he attempts to touch an artifact. the comic is indeed cannon since it's by the same writer for mass effect. his original eyes in fact were a light brown, glowing the blue we all know whenever he interacted with the higher brain functions given to him by the tech. This was durning the occupation of shanxi. I'm guessing that after years and years his mind can't handle the reaper's whispers any more has given in. and since every member of cerberus has an zealot like loyalty to him (explained in also cannon books((confirmed as cannon since we fight some one only mentioned so far in the book in ME3))) they'd follow him any where.
The Illusive Man, the obvious turn. *Series Breaking Spoiler*
Débuté par
TheLostGenius
, févr. 20 2012 07:59
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#52
Posté 21 février 2012 - 04:47
Nathan Redgrave
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TheLostGenius wrote...
darkdruid117 wrote...
TheLostGenius wrote...
comic books aren't canon, they are simply official fan fiction.
Actually, you are wrong. The comic is meant to explain more of TIM's history and backgound and the last I checked, TIM was part of the ME canon. I am also pretty sure that Mac Walters is more than just a fan but if you want to consider something written by the lead writer for ME3 as fan fiction I guess there could be wrose. I could be wrong as he could hate the whole ME franchise...
It's not canonical because it does not occur in the main storyline. Comics/books are simply franchises used to cash in on the games popularity.
Whether you want to believe them to be canon or not, the games consider them to be so. See ME1, where if you question Anderson about his history with Saren he gives you a summarized account of ME: Revelation, or ME2, where talking to Tali about why the quarians are hostile toward Cerberus gets you a brief summary of the end of ME: Ascension, or the leaked codex audio from ME3 which specifically mentions Kahlee Sanders by name, as well as alluding to the events of ME: Retribution in the same breath. Or Lair of the Shadow Broker, in which the drell friend of Liara's from ME: Redemption appears in the flesh, not to say it wasn't obvious enough that Redemption was canon from Liara's dialogue in ME2 already...
Whether the comics are intended to "cash in" or not is a moot point. The writers of the series consider them canon, and thus they are canon.
Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 21 février 2012 - 04:48 .
#53
Posté 21 février 2012 - 06:19
Paul Rodney
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Nathan Redgrave wrote...
TheLostGenius wrote...
darkdruid117 wrote...
TheLostGenius wrote...
comic books aren't canon, they are simply official fan fiction.
Actually, you are wrong. The comic is meant to explain more of TIM's history and backgound and the last I checked, TIM was part of the ME canon. I am also pretty sure that Mac Walters is more than just a fan but if you want to consider something written by the lead writer for ME3 as fan fiction I guess there could be wrose. I could be wrong as he could hate the whole ME franchise...
It's not canonical because it does not occur in the main storyline. Comics/books are simply franchises used to cash in on the games popularity.
Whether you want to believe them to be canon or not, the games consider them to be so. See ME1, where if you question Anderson about his history with Saren he gives you a summarized account of ME: Revelation, or ME2, where talking to Tali about why the quarians are hostile toward Cerberus gets you a brief summary of the end of ME: Ascension, or the leaked codex audio from ME3 which specifically mentions Kahlee Sanders by name, as well as alluding to the events of ME: Retribution in the same breath. Or Lair of the Shadow Broker, in which the drell friend of Liara's from ME: Redemption appears in the flesh, not to say it wasn't obvious enough that Redemption was canon from Liara's dialogue in ME2 already...
Whether the comics are intended to "cash in" or not is a moot point. The writers of the series consider them canon, and thus they are canon.
+1
#54
Posté 21 février 2012 - 07:57
Alithinos
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But how did TIM got indoctrinated if he did ?
I mean whatever Reaper tech Cerberus had in its hands,it's always others that do the experiments,and always very far away from where TIM is.
TIM never visits the "cells" of Cerberus,the individual bases and labs.
He is always on his own protective station controlling the labs from very far away for security reasons.
He would never touch Reaper technology himself,especially after what he have seen during the events of the Evolution comic.
I mean whatever Reaper tech Cerberus had in its hands,it's always others that do the experiments,and always very far away from where TIM is.
TIM never visits the "cells" of Cerberus,the individual bases and labs.
He is always on his own protective station controlling the labs from very far away for security reasons.
He would never touch Reaper technology himself,especially after what he have seen during the events of the Evolution comic.
#55
Posté 21 février 2012 - 08:04
Draconis6666
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He was indoctrinated years ago during the first contact war when he tried to save his friend and was only partially effected by the reaper artifact instead of full on huskified, it was just subtle like Saren's. The fact that he goes so far out of his way to avoid possible indoctrination is very much like Saren's lab dedicated to studying it because he too was afraid of it but was convinced that he himself wasnt indoctrinated yet.
#56
Posté 21 février 2012 - 08:20
Darth_Trethon
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The Illusive Man is no mere puppet I promise you that. He is in it not necessarily personal power but for human supremacy and given that humanity will likely sustain the heaviest losses so should every single last player because if we do not ensure human dominance we will be easy pray for terrorists like Batarians or mercs or whatever. TIM is certainly looking to preserve the reapers just not the way you think....he is not indoctrinated and very much knows what he is doing unlike Saren and the Collector General.
From what I can tell his plan makes a lot of sense and I now see no reason not to go along with it. Make no mistake....Mass Effect 3 is all about humanity and we as the players DO very much have options on whose side we end up. A lot of players will be suckered into damning humanity to a slow extinction by not securing the balance of power in human hands because siding with aliens will be the "Paragon" thing to do and we sure like to do tricks for a pat on the back and treat. Ultimately the fact of the matter is that this war is far more horrific than anyone can imagine and defeating the reapers is only the beginning....then we'll have to contend with all who would love to see humanity destroyed starting with the Batarians.
From what I can tell his plan makes a lot of sense and I now see no reason not to go along with it. Make no mistake....Mass Effect 3 is all about humanity and we as the players DO very much have options on whose side we end up. A lot of players will be suckered into damning humanity to a slow extinction by not securing the balance of power in human hands because siding with aliens will be the "Paragon" thing to do and we sure like to do tricks for a pat on the back and treat. Ultimately the fact of the matter is that this war is far more horrific than anyone can imagine and defeating the reapers is only the beginning....then we'll have to contend with all who would love to see humanity destroyed starting with the Batarians.
#57
Posté 21 février 2012 - 08:24
Draconis6666
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Yet all the evidence we have about indoctrination and his origins point heavily to the fact that he IS indoctrinated. The fact that he is sure that what he is doing is his own plan and that he can control the reapers just screams indoctrination.
#58
Posté 21 février 2012 - 08:35
Darth_Trethon
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Draconis6666 wrote...
Yet all the evidence we have about indoctrination and his origins point heavily to the fact that he IS indoctrinated. The fact that he is sure that what he is doing is his own plan and that he can control the reapers just screams indoctrination.
Oh I see the logic but that's what makes the twist so great. We are certainly meant to think he is indoctrinated but that wouldn't make sense because his plan for the reapers very much CAN work....there's even an achievement bearing the Cerberus logo about sending a message to the rest of the gallaxy named "Well Connected".....not to mention that the invasion comics clearly set up a player choice where we'll most likely be able to side with Cerberus.
And oh yeah....the trilogy ends so there will be very dramatic branching with wildly different endings beyond just the "win" and "lose" endings.....think KotOR style.
Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 21 février 2012 - 08:38 .
#59
Posté 21 février 2012 - 08:41
Draconis6666
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The possibility of his overall plan working and your ability to do something in the end involving it in no way means that he is not still indoctrinated. Even the leaked script heavily indicates that he IS indoctrinated, or will become so during the game.
#60
Posté 21 février 2012 - 08:52
Darth_Trethon
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Draconis6666 wrote...
The possibility of his overall plan working and your ability to do something in the end involving it in no way means that he is not still indoctrinated. Even the leaked script heavily indicates that he IS indoctrinated, or will become so during the game.
True indoctrination wouldn't allow for that much action towards a goal opposite of the reapers' plans....Saren tried to study indoctrination but ultimately believed that letting the reapers win was the best course of action...he never really did anything that could ultimately harm the reapers or their goals. Even if TIM is struggling against indoctrination sort of like Benezia did he is far more successful that given credit for. Ultimately he may need to die but that's not to say his plans and most actions aren't his own. In the demo there was mention about a Krogan-Turian alliance....TIM wants humanity to be on top and such an alliance wouldn't serve that goal so it doesn't really have to mean he is indoctrinated.
#61
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Posté 21 février 2012 - 09:04
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Yes he does, he personally oversaw the Grayson Project in Retribution.Alithinos wrote...
But how did TIM got indoctrinated if he did ?
I mean whatever Reaper tech Cerberus had in its hands,it's always others that do the experiments,and always very far away from where TIM is.
TIM never visits the "cells" of Cerberus,the individual bases and labs.
#62
Posté 21 février 2012 - 09:14
tobajas
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This spoiler I wont list here since I did'nt even myself want to read it but I could'nt resist the urge xD
But if someone wants to read it *Major spoilers* go here http://masseffect.wi...i/Illusive_Man
And read by the end at the Mass effect 3 section or if you want to read about him and his background. Info for Mass effect 3 is from an article from here Game Informer Issue 226, February 2012 so could also check there for more info and spoiler.
But if someone wants to read it *Major spoilers* go here http://masseffect.wi...i/Illusive_Man
And read by the end at the Mass effect 3 section or if you want to read about him and his background. Info for Mass effect 3 is from an article from here Game Informer Issue 226, February 2012 so could also check there for more info and spoiler.
Modifié par tobajas, 21 février 2012 - 09:14 .
#63
Posté 21 février 2012 - 09:33
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D-roy wrote...
TiM is a schemer.
He's only faking the alliance with the reapers to get access to a particular device that is necessary to finish building the crucible.
And it is possible to resist the indoctrination. Saren proved this.
Indoctrination can be sutle if the Reaper prefers so, "express mode" if they choose otherwise, for most they won't know it at all, the very few could feel it but even so it's too late for them because of exposure.
Saren couldn't totally hold out either. The Illusive Man is "a bit Husk-ized" (his eyes, remember?), the Reaper would already have a foothold on him and all they need to do is to make it slow and patient.
There's one thing common amongst schemers - over confidence. The Illusive Man might think he's in control or channeling Reaper into his ultimate ends, but he's screwed and might not realize it till the very end.
The Reaper is the ultimate threat, Cerberus becomes its agent, that's that.
#64
Posté 21 février 2012 - 10:39
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(Spoilers) From what I understand from the script, he's trying to find a way to control the Reapers so he can use them to secure human dominance, but somehow (implausibly) ends up indoctrinated by the Reapers instead.
#65
Posté 21 février 2012 - 10:44
Thefireandthepassion
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Literoy wrote...
Noticing the weird pupils of TIM, and as we never saw him in person (atleast in ME games), I assume it is possible him being a projection, AI of some sorts. His creators may very well be Reapers, Protheans, or some other civilization we know barely anything about.
Doubt he's AI. More than likely he had illegal body mods.
#66
Posté 21 février 2012 - 10:51
Draconis6666
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His eyes are from his partial huskification during the First Contact War.
#67
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Posté 21 février 2012 - 11:00
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Cerberus isn't any more ruthless than a (ruthless) Renegade Shepard. So they aren't "insanely" evil, just very ruthless.
Even if Cerberus/TIM did decide to try and control the Reapers it would make no sense for them to actually work WITH the Reapers unless they were lolindoctrinated. That's just lame because it has been done before in this series and it undermines TIM as an antagonist. He's compelling because he's ruthless and intelligent. You indoctrinate him and he's just a slave. He could be anybody.
Saren joining Sovereign had nothing to do with him being indoctrinated. If you read the novel Revelation it is apparent that he'd have come to this conclusion anyway. This is especially true if you talk to his voice actor about how he interpreted Saren.
He was a pessimist and a man without hope. So it was easy for him to let go and just fight for basic survival no matter how meager it might be. It was that or death for him.
In TIM's case, he is fighting for something grand. However if he wants to control the Reapers he should still know that such an endeavor could fail. Towards that end you'd think he'd want to help put together the crucible as extra insurance. In the process he'd gradually gain the trust of the other allies and of Shepard.
Then, at the end, he pounces and tries to achieve his true goal. At that point I say let the player decide for themselves if TIM is right or not. If they agree they can help him achieve his domination over the Reapers in the last mission or they can thwart him.
Or, or, we could never have had this silly subplot to begin with. TIM had no plans to control the Reapers in ME2 or in Retribution. He only came up with this plan just before ME3 because Bioware invented a McGuffin to let him do just that. If it weren't for this McGuffin suddenly being invented for ME3 TIM would never have been any enemy in ME3.
They decided they wanted TIM to be a villain so they invented a reason for him to turn on Shepard. Though as I said even then it doesn't make sense.
Even if Cerberus/TIM did decide to try and control the Reapers it would make no sense for them to actually work WITH the Reapers unless they were lolindoctrinated. That's just lame because it has been done before in this series and it undermines TIM as an antagonist. He's compelling because he's ruthless and intelligent. You indoctrinate him and he's just a slave. He could be anybody.
Saren joining Sovereign had nothing to do with him being indoctrinated. If you read the novel Revelation it is apparent that he'd have come to this conclusion anyway. This is especially true if you talk to his voice actor about how he interpreted Saren.
He was a pessimist and a man without hope. So it was easy for him to let go and just fight for basic survival no matter how meager it might be. It was that or death for him.
In TIM's case, he is fighting for something grand. However if he wants to control the Reapers he should still know that such an endeavor could fail. Towards that end you'd think he'd want to help put together the crucible as extra insurance. In the process he'd gradually gain the trust of the other allies and of Shepard.
Then, at the end, he pounces and tries to achieve his true goal. At that point I say let the player decide for themselves if TIM is right or not. If they agree they can help him achieve his domination over the Reapers in the last mission or they can thwart him.
Or, or, we could never have had this silly subplot to begin with. TIM had no plans to control the Reapers in ME2 or in Retribution. He only came up with this plan just before ME3 because Bioware invented a McGuffin to let him do just that. If it weren't for this McGuffin suddenly being invented for ME3 TIM would never have been any enemy in ME3.
They decided they wanted TIM to be a villain so they invented a reason for him to turn on Shepard. Though as I said even then it doesn't make sense.
#68
Posté 21 février 2012 - 12:22
Nathan Redgrave
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Saren joining Sovereign had nothing to do with him being indoctrinated. If you read the novel Revelation it is apparent that he'd have come to this conclusion anyway. This is especially true if you talk to his voice actor about how he interpreted Saren.
Actually, didn't Saren originally want to use Sovereign to subjugate all other races, much the way the Illusive Man is attempting to use the Reapers? The key difference is, of course, that as of Revelation, Saren had no idea what he was dealing with, only the vague idea that it was powerful and that people who spent time in close quarters with it generally went insane or something.
#69
Posté 21 février 2012 - 12:22
Domdeegrpgc
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TheLostGenius wrote...
It's fairly obvious that TIM is in it for power, much like Saren was.
Wrong.
#70
Posté 21 février 2012 - 12:24
Nathan Redgrave
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Domdeegrpgc wrote...
TheLostGenius wrote...
It's fairly obvious that TIM is in it for power, much like Saren was.
Wrong.
In Revelation, he was after power, which is why he kept the knowledge of Sovereign to himself rather than telling the Council about it. It's obvious that by the time ME1 comes around the tables have turned, however.
EDIT: The only real allusion to any of that in ME1 itself is one conversation you can have (with Liara, I think) about Saren's motives, where one of your options is to point out that whatever Saren's motives used to be, he's completely different now. One of them is to speculate that he actually was in it for power, if I recall. But it's never confirmed in-game; Anderson can tell you an abbreviated version of ME: Revelation from his point of view, but it doesn't actually touch on Saren getting hold of Sovereign, or even that the story was connected to Sovereign at all, probably because Anderson himself never made the connection.
Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 21 février 2012 - 12:27 .
#71
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 21 février 2012 - 12:26
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Nathan Redgrave wrote...
Actually, didn't Saren originally want to use Sovereign to subjugate all other races,
Yes, but Saren didn't even know what Sovereign was beyond the fact that it was very powerful.
His desire to save the galaxy by surrendering it would have only arisen once he knew what Sovereign was and (understandably) believed there was no hope.
#72
Posté 21 février 2012 - 12:28
Nathan Redgrave
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Nathan Redgrave wrote...
Actually, didn't Saren originally want to use Sovereign to subjugate all other races,
Yes, but Saren didn't even know what Sovereign was beyond the fact that it was very powerful.
I said that in the portion of my post that you conveniently didn't include in your quote. Inadvertantly, of course. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that you would attempt to make me look stupid on purpose. =3
Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 21 février 2012 - 12:28 .
#73
Posté 21 février 2012 - 01:15
umbra04
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Question is - why TIM saved Shepard (and not hand him to Collectors)?
My favourite theory is that TIM knows that he is indoctrinated and that process is getting stronger. So with last bits of free will he resurected Shepard and gave him resources to be the galaxy hero.
We see that turning point in ME2. First, TIM send Shepard to Collectors ship with no warning (into a trap - TIM explanation was, in my opinion, worst than weak). And in the end when he oposes to destroy Collectors base.
----
Due to other theory that Shepard resurection is part of Reapers plan :
What is our goal in ME3? To gather all races in one star system (Solar) - for final battle. In that case, what would stop Reapers to blow up the sun (turn in to supernova - which we know prom ME2 is possible by manipulating dark matter in stars core)? That would anihilate all defences in one go. 'Thank Shepard for allowing this!' And Reapers win.
My favourite theory is that TIM knows that he is indoctrinated and that process is getting stronger. So with last bits of free will he resurected Shepard and gave him resources to be the galaxy hero.
We see that turning point in ME2. First, TIM send Shepard to Collectors ship with no warning (into a trap - TIM explanation was, in my opinion, worst than weak). And in the end when he oposes to destroy Collectors base.
----
Due to other theory that Shepard resurection is part of Reapers plan :
What is our goal in ME3? To gather all races in one star system (Solar) - for final battle. In that case, what would stop Reapers to blow up the sun (turn in to supernova - which we know prom ME2 is possible by manipulating dark matter in stars core)? That would anihilate all defences in one go. 'Thank Shepard for allowing this!' And Reapers win.
#74
Posté 21 février 2012 - 01:30
TheLostGenius
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umbra04 wrote...
Question is - why TIM saved Shepard (and not hand him to Collectors)?
My favourite theory is that TIM knows that he is indoctrinated and that process is getting stronger. So with last bits of free will he resurected Shepard and gave him resources to be the galaxy hero.
We see that turning point in ME2. First, TIM send Shepard to Collectors ship with no warning (into a trap - TIM explanation was, in my opinion, worst than weak). And in the end when he oposes to destroy Collectors base.
----
Due to other theory that Shepard resurection is part of Reapers plan :
What is our goal in ME3? To gather all races in one star system (Solar) - for final battle. In that case, what would stop Reapers to blow up the sun (turn in to supernova - which we know prom ME2 is possible by manipulating dark matter in stars core)? That would anihilate all defences in one go. 'Thank Shepard for allowing this!' And Reapers win.
Good point. Though you can choose to let him keep the base. That should make for a fairly intriguing alternate playthrough, i think that specific choice is probably one of the most impactful in the series.
#75
Posté 21 février 2012 - 01:58
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Oh, hey, since it was just posted in the no-spoiler forum, aparently there's a bunch of concept art in the artbook of T.I.M. in various stages of indoctrination, including a scrapped concept where he turns into a kind of huskified hulkish monster thing for the final battle.
So yeah...
So yeah...
