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The Illusive Man, the obvious turn. *Series Breaking Spoiler*


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#76
vonSlash

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Cerberus isn't any more ruthless than a (ruthless) Renegade Shepard. So they aren't "insanely" evil, just very ruthless.

Even if Cerberus/TIM did decide to try and control the Reapers it would make no sense for them to actually work WITH the Reapers unless they were lolindoctrinated. That's just lame because it has been done before in this series and it undermines TIM as an antagonist. He's compelling because he's ruthless and intelligent. You indoctrinate him and he's just a slave. He could be anybody.

Saren joining Sovereign had nothing to do with him being indoctrinated. If you read the novel Revelation it is apparent that he'd have come to this conclusion anyway. This is especially true if you talk to his voice actor about how he interpreted Saren.

He was a pessimist and a man without hope. So it was easy for him to let go and just fight for basic survival no matter how meager it might be. It was that or death for him.

In TIM's case, he is fighting for something grand. However if he wants to control the Reapers he should still know that such an endeavor could fail. Towards that end you'd think he'd want to help put together the crucible as extra insurance. In the process he'd gradually gain the trust of the other allies and of Shepard.

Then, at the end, he pounces and tries to achieve his true goal. At that point I say let the player decide for themselves if TIM is right or not. If they agree they can help him achieve his domination over the Reapers in the last mission or they can thwart him.

Or, or, we could never have had this silly subplot to begin with. TIM had no plans to control the Reapers in ME2 or in Retribution. He only came up with this plan just before ME3 because Bioware invented a McGuffin to let him do just that. If it weren't for this McGuffin suddenly being invented for ME3 TIM would never have been any enemy in ME3.

They decided they wanted TIM to be a villain so they invented a reason for him to turn on Shepard. Though as I said even then it doesn't make sense.


Basically this. It would have been simple for them to write a plot in which TIM is working alongside Shepard and the others to recapture Earth, but with a hidden agenda of controlling the Reapers that only becomes apparent at the end of the game, at which point pro-Cerberus players could side with TIM for one ending while other players could kill TIM for the other. This would satisfy both pro-Cerberus players and the rest of the fanbase while simultaneously creating a more interesting and less cut-and-paste-from-ME1 story.

Unfortunately, Paragon is "right" now, and working with TIM is not Paragon, so that couldn't be allowed.

#77
Bigaddygun

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Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Oh, hey, since it was just posted in the no-spoiler forum, aparently there's a bunch of concept art in the artbook of T.I.M. in various stages of indoctrination, including a scrapped concept where he turns into a kind of huskified hulkish monster thing for the final battle.

So yeah...


The "huskified creature" is concept art only and it wasn't implemented into the final game - there is no final battle with TIM, only talk. 

TIM isn't evil either. Think the Cruicble. 

Modifié par Bigaddygun, 21 février 2012 - 02:09 .


#78
TheLostGenius

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Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Oh, hey, since it was just posted in the no-spoiler forum, aparently there's a bunch of concept art in the artbook of T.I.M. in various stages of indoctrination, including a scrapped concept where he turns into a kind of huskified hulkish monster thing for the final battle.

So yeah...


Thats a horrible idea. Reminds of the spasticated crab fight against Saren that saved the Citadel. :mellow:

#79
Nathan Redgrave

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TheLostGenius wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Oh, hey, since it was just posted in the no-spoiler forum, aparently there's a bunch of concept art in the artbook of T.I.M. in various stages of indoctrination, including a scrapped concept where he turns into a kind of huskified hulkish monster thing for the final battle.

So yeah...


Thats a horrible idea. Reminds of the spasticated crab fight against Saren that saved the Citadel. :mellow:


Kinda makes you glad the idea was scrapped, then! (...Mind you, fighting indoctrinated T.I.M. itself isn't a bad plan, could potentially by awesome if done right, but the hulk-husk thing was just... ugh. Glad they gave that up as a bad job, because it obviously was one.)

#80
Nathan Redgrave

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Bigaddygun wrote...

The "huskified creature" is concept art only and it wasn't implemented into the final game - there is no final battle with TIM, only talk. 

TIM isn't evil either. Think the Cruicble. 


Hence, "scrapped."

#81
Bigaddygun

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Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Bigaddygun wrote...

The "huskified creature" is concept art only and it wasn't implemented into the final game - there is no final battle with TIM, only talk. 

TIM isn't evil either. Think the Cruicble. 


Hence, "scrapped."


Lol you posted that response after mine, so how am I suppose to know if you knew otherwise... doesn't matter anyway. 

#82
Nathan Redgrave

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Bigaddygun wrote...

Lol you posted that response after mine, so how am I suppose to know if you knew otherwise... doesn't matter anyway. 


No I didn't. I posted it on the previous page. In fact you quoted that very same post yourself. So bleh. Posted Image

#83
TheLostGenius

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I could see some strange arrangement where the Reapers basically appoint TIM's mind into the AI of a Reaper entity. That would be VERY interesting.

#84
JimmyTheProthean

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TheLostGenius wrote...

I could see some strange arrangement where the Reapers basically appoint TIM's mind into the AI of a Reaper entity. That would be VERY interesting.


Just responding to your comment, two pages back. Comics are canon as long as the creators say they are and Bioware obviously intended for the Illusive man Origin Comics to be canon!, not least they where written by Mass Effects 3's lead writer. Any i myself as a fan consider any book canon even if it contradicts lore a small bit as long as it dosen't involve  anthromorphic Space bunnies! yes STAR WARS EXPANDED UNIVERSE IM VIRTUALLY POINTING AT YOU!

#85
TheLostGenius

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The comic book doesn't count because it doesn't happen in the REAL GAME. They are playing with your minds guys! Mass Effect isn't even real!!

#86
Nerevar-as

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JimmyTheProthean wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

I could see some strange arrangement where the Reapers basically appoint TIM's mind into the AI of a Reaper entity. That would be VERY interesting.


Just responding to your comment, two pages back. Comics are canon as long as the creators say they are and Bioware obviously intended for the Illusive man Origin Comics to be canon!, not least they where written by Mass Effects 3's lead writer. Any i myself as a fan consider any book canon even if it contradicts lore a small bit as long as it dosen't involve  anthromorphic Space bunnies! yes STAR WARS EXPANDED UNIVERSE IM VIRTUALLY POINTING AT YOU!


Give a chance to Space Usagi. The only space bunny done right.

#87
TheLostGenius

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no more talking about space bunnies.

PLease reference TC.

#88
sangy

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Cerberus has me confused. ME1 obviously has them painted as villian. I don't know who I can compare Cerberus to. A group with the financial resources to gain power by any means necessary.

In ME2, though with a bad reputation they, for the most part, do good and save lives. Of course gaining power and technology as well. Depending on your actions, how much they achieve is debatable.

From the demo, Cerberus taking what looks like the role they played in ME1. Again, in Shepard's way for reasons completely unknown. You can say because Illusive Man is working with the Reapers or is influenced by them, but I don't buy that.

It really just confuses me. I can't really grasp why the Illusive Man/Cerberus would want to work against Shepard or the Alliance. It really is possible that as the story unfolds in ME3 that eventually Cerberus will join to assist the fight against the Reapers.

I really want to find out who the Illusive Man answers to and what the heck is going on. His story, is deeper than the Reaper's story in my opinion. I can't see how this game can't be long. There is a lot to cover and I'm worried not enough gameplay to cover it all to satisfaction.

#89
WarGriffin

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myd00m wrote...


saren hates humans, he was looking for a way to save some organics from being harvested. Also cerebrus isnt evil, they were exposed to reaper metal which bends organics to their will. Also reapers are gods who put organics in the universe to harvest and are far beyond what organic life can comprehend. so evil becomes a matter of opinion that is bias to main characters agenda. organic life is just cattle they farm. unfortunateluy me2 made a joke of the first games story.



Tell that to Kohoku and his marines

Tell that to all the kids lives they screwed up

#90
TheLostGenius

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 I knew it since the beginning of ME2. Love those writers. :wub: