51 réponses à ce sujet

[srpnt]

Brian Chung wrote...

Obviously, a better system would be to override the core DAScript AI for the followers so you can actually do conditions and have them communicate with each other ("I'm casting Fireball!" "I'm getting out of the way!").

Robin's hobby is AI programming and his goal was more of a "Can I do this using just the Tactics system?"

Elvis Christ, that's possible?!?

I have fond memories of writing libraries of extensive ZMUD macros that automated everything from navigation and combat to item identification and rudimentary communication.

Wow.. a toolkit that lets you rewrite your own AI.. and presumably enemy AI..

I could actually make the game more difficult without the brute force method of increasing hp, damage, and armor.  I could add a 'when enemy is frozen' or 'when Tank's taunt is on cooldown'.. um.. gambit?  I could add nested triggers, 'in combat' and 'out of combat' state identification, and a whole mess of fun stuff.

I guess I better download the toolkit today. 

[Lord Badmagic]

Mmmmmm... Just tagging this for later perusal.

[MisterEcted]

I think it would be marvelous to be able to have your party completely driven off of AI. It would be cool if they all communicated like Brian said.



If DA:O2 (hopefully we see that) allows this and the tactics system is a bit more robust to handle this then that would be freakin' awesome. Of course a mod would be great too but if it was built around this idea then it could really take off.

[Georg Zoeller]

Yea, entirely possible.

srpnt wrote...

Brian Chung wrote...

Obviously, a better system would be to override the core DAScript AI for the followers so you can actually do conditions and have them communicate with each other ("I'm casting Fireball!" "I'm getting out of the way!").

Robin's hobby is AI programming and his goal was more of a "Can I do this using just the Tactics system?"

Elvis Christ, that's possible?!?

I have fond memories of writing libraries of extensive ZMUD macros that automated everything from navigation and combat to item identification and rudimentary communication.

Wow.. a toolkit that lets you rewrite your own AI.. and presumably enemy AI..

I could actually make the game more difficult without the brute force method of increasing hp, damage, and armor.  I could add a 'when enemy is frozen' or 'when Tank's taunt is on cooldown'.. um.. gambit?  I could add nested triggers, 'in combat' and 'out of combat' state identification, and a whole mess of fun stuff.

I guess I better download the toolkit today. 

[Wild Maiden]

So basically you want to pay programmers to create a "game" that allows you to program all the characters so you can watch them battle... Why not eliminate the middle mad and go see a movie?



If you guys want this then have at it, I don't see the appeal...

[Pseron Wyrd]

Wild Maiden wrote...
 I don't see the appeal...

Some of us do not play RPGs for the combat. Hard to believe, I know...

[AgenTBC]

I would be absolutely thrilled if Bioware and every other game company started making AI fully moddable. Including enemy AI. Then we'd actually get a challenging game from the mods without, as someone else said, simply cranking up HP and damage for the enemies.

[Sakiradesu]

Wild Maiden wrote...

So basically you want to pay programmers to create a "game" that allows you to program all the characters so you can watch them battle... Why not eliminate the middle mad and go see a movie?

If you guys want this then have at it, I don't see the appeal...

It's like setting the rails for a train set. The challenge is to put the rails in such a way that it automatically goes up, over, under, or around any obstacles it may come across.

In this case, you'd need to come up with your own clever system of tactics that beats the DA:O's system of tactics.  You are doing this when you're controlling your character.

If Alistair's health falls below 50%, you might heal him. If there is an orange monster in the room, you might cast Force Field on it and kill the other monsters. Can you make your characters, through tactics, do what you would do normally and have it beat a boss? You put your genius down into Tactic form and watch your amazingness do its work.

It's a handicap, if you will.

[srpnt]

Wild Maiden wrote...

So basically you want to pay programmers to create a "game" that allows you to program all the characters so you can watch them battle... Why not eliminate the middle mad and go see a movie?

If you guys want this then have at it, I don't see the appeal...

The challenge is in programming the characters to make good tactical decisions without intervention.

For example, if you've got tactics set up to use certain abilities on certain targets, that's fine - but by default your AI characters will blow through their stamina / mana as fast as their spells recharge.  As a player, you know you might need.. say, Shield Bash, to free a target from an Ogre's grab.  Can you put the tactics together so that the tank saves enough stamina to use Shield Bash, but still uses his other spells effectively to keep attackers off the back line?

It's trivially easy if you're playing the tank as your main character, or if you pause every 2 seconds and micro everyone.  It's more of a challenge if you want to make the computer do it without your intervention.  In particular, getting a healer to keep the whole party alive without any intervention presents a challenge, as does getting an AOE-focused mage to dish out damage without frying her own party.

I've got the toolkit downloaded, and barring a few installation issues I'm ready to go on developing additional triggers and hopefully nested triggers to add to the 'all AI on' version of the game.  Hopefully I'll also be able to use that version to crack into the AI's heads and make them a little more challenging.  I'd love to add concepts like DAoC's 'bring a friend' or enemies who attack in formation.

[Sakiradesu]

This also leads into... can you design a system of tactics that beats the average player?



Games are fun when you're terrified of regular monsters.

[thisisme8]

srpnt wrote...

Wild Maiden wrote...

So basically you want to pay programmers to create a "game" that allows you to program all the characters so you can watch them battle... Why not eliminate the middle mad and go see a movie?

If you guys want this then have at it, I don't see the appeal...

The challenge is in programming the characters to make good tactical decisions without intervention.

For example, if you've got tactics set up to use certain abilities on certain targets, that's fine - but by default your AI characters will blow through their stamina / mana as fast as their spells recharge.  As a player, you know you might need.. say, Shield Bash, to free a target from an Ogre's grab.  Can you put the tactics together so that the tank saves enough stamina to use Shield Bash, but still uses his other spells effectively to keep attackers off the back line?

It's trivially easy if you're playing the tank as your main character, or if you pause every 2 seconds and micro everyone.  It's more of a challenge if you want to make the computer do it without your intervention.  In particular, getting a healer to keep the whole party alive without any intervention presents a challenge, as does getting an AOE-focused mage to dish out damage without frying her own party.

I've got the toolkit downloaded, and barring a few installation issues I'm ready to go on developing additional triggers and hopefully nested triggers to add to the 'all AI on' version of the game.  Hopefully I'll also be able to use that version to crack into the AI's heads and make them a little more challenging.  I'd love to add concepts like DAoC's 'bring a friend' or enemies who attack in formation.

Make sure to post what you make.  It sounds awesome.

[thisisme8]

Sakiradesu wrote...

This also leads into... can you design a system of tactics that beats the average player?

Games are fun when you're terrified of regular monsters.

Fo sho.

[Rubarack]

This sounds very interesting and I'll have to give something like this a go for a second playthrough if the mod does appear.

[Evkun]

God forbid, mobs with health pots. Mobs that CC your casters, and have a high enough (Mental resist?) to laugh at your silly tank and ignore him while killing the actual threats to their health. Forcing every member of the party to be able to deal with an angry group that ignores everyone else for their chosen target would be interesting. I want monsters to go "oh god mages are overpowered KILL IT KILL IT NOW!" and deal with it. That said I wonder how much of a bonus a 'tank' gets to flanking attacks, and how hard it would be to give a bonus to threat generation based on flanked attacks to literally 'pull' monsters off other targets . . . . ah man I'm thinking too much. I need to hunker down and beat the game so I can start digging around the toolset in earnest without fear of spoilers.

[Ookisakana]

Wild Maiden wrote...

So basically you want to pay programmers to create a "game" that allows you to program all the characters so you can watch them battle... Why not eliminate the middle mad and go see a movie?

If you guys want this then have at it, I don't see the appeal...

The appeal is in designing an auto-pilot for repetitive actions you are already taking, and then gauging the effectiveness as various tactical situations arise.  Most fights involve press 1, press 2, wait for cooldown, repeat.  Its not exactly a straining mental exercise.  The idea of the mod is that it lets you take a few hours tweak things how you like, and then run with it to see how well it goes. 

Additionally, its not like fine control is ever removed.  You want to take control of a party member, or all of them, nothing's stopping you, and in fact is probably a better idea in many fights.  All it really does is allow a higher level of control for those who want it.

[Silensfurtim]

its only a matter of time til somebody makes a mod that lets it handle everything in the game.

Preset 1: Kill Flemeth
Preset 2: Kill High Dragon
Preset 3: Kill the Gaxhang
Preset 4: Kill a Revenant
Preset 5: Kill a group of 4 melee, 2 mages, 6 archers


oh dear

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 26 novembre 2009 - 04:06 .

[srpnt]

Silensfurtim wrote...

its only a matter of time til somebody makes a mod that lets it handle everything in the game.

Preset 1: Kill Flemeth
Preset 2: Kill High Dragon...

If I can modify enemy AI, I can add difficulty modes designed specifically to challenge tactics-based parties.  

For example, any given party of enemies might have a handful of poulitices and
lyrium potions available, preventing things like Mana Clash from being
an 'I win' button against mages and adding more uses for Curse of Mortality without needlessly dragging combat out. 

An enemy mage might see that your whole party is bunched up at the beginning of battle and throw a fireball or chain lightning your way, but switch to a heavy healing/CC focus as his party takes damage.  

The tanks in his party might taunt your attackers, giving them a sizeable attack/damage debuff against anything that isn't the taunting tank. 

Enemy rogues might stealth and run to the nearest doorway to call for backup, requiring CC to prevent additional enemies from being called in and extending the fight.

All enemies might try to focus fire on the foe least resistant to the type of damage they can dish out rather than picking targets seemingly at random.  A foe who attacks someone, hits with the attack, and does under 5 damage could get frustrated and go after another likely target rather than continuing to beat a brick wall.  This would indirectly address the Taunt + Force Field strategy - enemies would still attack the forcefielded tank, but after the first attack they'd realize they were doing no damage and the tank was effectively controlled and go after another nearby foe.

[Tielis]

I'm also very interested in this mod. Please please keep us posted!

[Askingsexxx]

sounds cool to me.

[Poubo]

it will be like watching a cinematic story... i'd download it just to give it a shot...

[supakillaii]

I can clearly see Morrigan casting a Fireball at Alistair just for the spite of it...

[Georg Zoeller]

Except that in Dragon Age, this is the case.

Not only is the AI fully moddable (enemy or friendly), we also do not just crank up HP and damage for the enemies.

AgenTBC wrote...

I would be absolutely thrilled if Bioware and every other game company started making AI fully moddable. Including enemy AI. Then we'd actually get a challenging game from the mods without, as someone else said, simply cranking up HP and damage for the enemies.

[montana_boy]

Brian Chung wrote...

Actually, Georg Zoeller helped Robin Walker (of VALVe) make a mod like this, so Robin could try out a fully AI driven party just to see if he could play the game like that.

Basically unlock all 25 tactic slots on every party member right away (instead of spending skill slots), and enable AI on the current selected character, where normally it gets disabled to let the the player control it.

I believe he was able to kill the first boss on nightmare running it in full automatic mode.

I'll see if I can get Robin to provide the mod to the website (or hand it to me to post), so people can try it out.

Thanks a lot!

[montana_boy]

chiliztri wrote...

Are you intending to watch the game or actually play it?

Well if you think setting up a rather involved scheme of tactics settings is NOT playing the game well... to each his own I guess

[montana_boy]

Ardept wrote...

no, you have to control one toon, however if you like i can fraps my nxt runthro and post it to you, and i will only charge 30 dollars for it, i accept cash or paypall credit, just let me know what class you want for the main chr

You got a deal Ardept but I will only pay for 10-Ardept points...

Oop's I forgot... Rogue... with high stealing skills... and I want you to stand real close to me before I buy.

Modifié par montana_boy, 26 novembre 2009 - 07:37 .