100 réponses à ce sujet

[Axe_Murderer]

Too hard to tell if a project is done or in progress or abandoned. There is no filter option or way to mark your project as completed and ready for use. Would be nice if projects could be given a completion attribute (i.e. planning, building, alpha testing, beta testing, released, etc).
When you click on projects all you see is a gigantic list. The list can only be viewed 10 items at a time which is way to few (at this point I don't need to see everybody's gigantic project icon/pic/logo taking up most of my screen real estate).

Some of the drop down options are not something anybody would be interested in listing them by or are duplicated by others (e.g. popularity? most views? what is the difference between those two anyway). For example, is ordering by most views going to generate a significantly different ordering than sorting by last updated or popularity does? I mean all the older projects are likely to have more views than the any of the newer ones, so ordering by create date isn't going to be significantly different that ordering by most views. This isn't a major problem, frankly more options are better than fewer, but the ones you really need (which projects are "the best" and which are "not worth the effort", which are done which are still in progress) isn't there.

As far as projects go, I think it would be great to have two ways to rate them -- one based on things like the NWVault's rating system used (is it a good idea, do people like it, etc), and another where people could rate the "buggyness" or "stability" or "ease of setup" type things about the project. For me it would be far more useful to be able to filter and sort on these kinds of peer judged criteria than by "most views" or a generic "popularity" based on what? How many members they have there making no progress? How long they've been making no progress? Another example, somebody makes a pixellated nudity project. Don't know how others feel about this but for me game nudity is pretty silly. Fun/funny to look at once, but not something worth adding to my game. It is however no doubt going to get tons of views simply due to the curiosity factor and people's unrealistic hollywierd brainwashing propaganda driven obsession with sexuality. So these mostly useless projects are going to show up prominant in a "most viewed" list. But if you are looking for useful stuff to add, you'll end up wading thru this crap because the criteria is based on curiosity rather than some substantive purpose. Maybe projects need a sex rating system similar to what hollywierd does to help with this particular issue (e.g. G, PG, PG13...XXX).

Would be nice to be able to filter out completely all those projects with fewer than X members. Would be nice to be able to filter out completely all those projects that haven't had any activity at all for X days.

Abandoned projects clutter up the list enormously. Projects should be automatically disabled or destroyed if there is no activity in them for some threshold criteria length of time and they remain incomplete/never started.

Modifié par Axe_Murderer, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:19 .

[Challseus]

I think a lot of people are jumping the gun. The toolset hasn't even been out for a month yet, and just because this site isn't as good as it can be, people are ready to jump ship?! I could easily go to the other modding sites that are popping up, and find things this site does better than them (in my opinion, that is). But that's neither here nor there... A couple points:

1) As stated, the toolset hasn't been out for a month yet. I cannot count how much content has been created on this site, as admittingly, most of it is filled with "I'm gonna do this" content. However, the most I have found on another DA modding site is around 160. It doesn't seem like the community is producing a lot of stuff yet, which makes sense. I know "a lot" is subjective", but I feel like there are still a lot of things left to be learned, before people really start pumping out stuff.

We're still in the infancy stage of learning what we can do with the toolset. I'm not following the custom content guys too much, but I know Adinos and others are working on tools that will allow others to import custom models and other such things. I know people are still mucking around with level creation, and how to get the lighting just right. I am personally still figuring out the cleanest way to get custom music into the game.

2) This is just my belief, but while all of 1) is going on, Jesse and the other web guys (assuming he isn't working by himself!)  will continually be making upgrades to this site. They already listened to the complaints of many and:

a) split up the toolset forums
added more project categories and other minor tweaks
c) fixed a host of bugs

Are there more bugs to fix? Of course. And I won't rehash the list of things needed to make the Projects section more robust, but according to them, they are on it. And I have no reason not to trust them. I guess I'm a innocent until proven guilty type of guy.

3) People complain about a lack of tutorials, but again, give it time. People have to know what they are talking about before they can right tutorials! Even so, the Tutorials page is looking pretty decent at the moment. And I have no reason to believe it won't continue to grow as people learn more.

4) I have no reason to believe Bioware wouldn't make this site as good as it can be. I mean, the bottom line is it makes them money, and Bioware seems to know how to make money I mean, I guess in 8 years, the oh so evil overlords that are EA may shut this down, and if so, I will have no problem uploading my work at one of these other sites.

*********************************

I personally will be sticking with this site, because I already come here for everything else, so might as well be complete. Plus, I believe the potential of this site will be far greater than any other 3rd party site, mainly the traffic.


In conclusion, this is just my belief, but by the turn of the year, no one will even be talking about this anymore, assuming Bioware makes all the neccessary fixes. Of course people will go to other sites to download stuff, but the same happened with NWN. NWVault was the main site to go to, but there were others, such as File Planet and ModDB, that had mods as well.

[powerboy]

I am looking for something like NWVault, except for Dragon Age. The vault was easy to use to find Mods available for Download. Sorting through a forum for items is not a very good way to showcase them.

[Challseus]

Axe_Murderer wrote...

As far as projects go, I think it would be great to have two ways to rate them -- one based on things like the NWVault's rating system used...

 
100% agree.

Axe_Murderer wrote...

For me it would be far more useful to be able to filter and sort on these kinds of peer judged criteria than by most views or a generic "popularity" based on what? How many members they have there making no progress? How long they've been making no progress?

[Proleric]

Dark0ne- wrote...The terms are crystal clear about files uploaded to this site. Are they as clear about using content from users who haven't uploaded to the site?

This is an important issue, because most builders just want to have fun and use components made by other community members without hassle. The last thing we want is to return to the bad old days of ownership disputes.

If everyone uses this hosting site, the rules are clear. Ambiguity only creeps in if someone uses an independent site which doesn't offer the same protection.

That's not Bioware's problem unless someone takes material from that site and reposts it here.

Of course, sooner or later, someone will do that. Again, the rules are clear, in the event of challenge. It's not for me to say what action Bioware would take, but it's not rocket science. I'd be surprised if anyone who really knows Bioware would have any misgivings about their ability to manage the situation.

Modifié par Proleric1, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:16 .

[Dark0ne-]

If everyone uses this hosting site, the rules are clear. Ambiguity only creeps in if someone uses an independent site which doesn't offer the same protection.

Not everyone wants to throw their work in to the public domain for all to use, especially without any sort of forced crediting for using another author's work.

Modifié par Dark0ne-, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:37 .

[Jesse van Herk]

For anyone with suggestions on how to improve the projects section here or what is lacking, *please* post them in the "social.bioware.com site help" forum, where the devs can possibly find them. We are committed to making the projects section more useful, but that's tough when we don't know what people are asking for. Thanks!

[Adinos]

You want suggestions?

Well, here is one thread: http://social.biowar.../6/index/304462
Here is another: http://social.biowar.../6/index/304104
Here is an older thread: http://social.biowar.../8/index/119467
And yes...here is a really old one: http://social.biowar...pic/6/index/152

Modifié par Adinos, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:46 .

[Challseus]

Jesse van Herk wrote...

For anyone with suggestions on how to improve the projects section here or what is lacking, *please* post them in the "social.bioware.com site help" forum, where the devs can possibly find them. We are committed to making the projects section more useful, but that's tough when we don't know what people are asking for. Thanks!

We had this thread, but it's in this forum. Maybe it can be moved to the site help forum? Lots of good ideas in there as well.

Edit - Adinos beat me to the punch.

Modifié par Challseus, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:42 .

[giskard44]

Dark0ne- wrote...

If everyone uses this hosting site, the rules are clear. Ambiguity only creeps in if someone uses an independent site which doesn't offer the same protection.

Not everyone wants to throw their work in to the public domain for all to use, especially without any sort of forced crediting for using another author's work.

First you talk about fair moderation and community fragmentation on a sites thats 1000% better than nexus at it and now your talking about mod protection. Unbelievable.......

Take a guess who I am.... yes I am the giskard who had all his mods (The Cyrodiil Upgrade Mods) banned from nexus for complaining about your moderator emptying my account of all my mods and giving them to another team without even asking me first. He even dug up an old account you told me had been deleted years ago and used your second account rule that to hide what he had done.

So much for fair moderation and modders protection, you could not have dumped on my modders rights from any higher than the you did.

Btw say hello to my old team who witnesses that. They are here playing DA and looking forward to what I make for this community.

http://social.bioware.com/group/565/

Modifié par giskard44, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:50 .

[Dark0ne-]

Hello Giskard Your cunning disguise almost got me!

[Proleric]

Dark0ne- wrote...

If everyone uses this hosting site, the rules are clear. Ambiguity only creeps in if someone uses an independent site which doesn't offer the same protection.

Not everyone wants to throw their work in to the public domain for all to use, especially without any sort of forced crediting for using another author's work.

No one forces us to do anything here. That's the whole point. We share our time and talents voluntarily, and give credit as a matter of courtesy and respect, not because someone else says we must. The rules discourage organised pressure groups who might otherwise use content ownership as a power lever over us.
Of course, the rules won't suit everyone, but folk who want to make money or avoid sharing would probably do better to choose a different game.

[Alexspeed]

From the Product EULAs and Other Disclosures (link at bottom of page):

Dragon Age: Origins- (...) EA MAY RETIRE ONLINE FEATURES AFTER 30 DAYS NOTICE POSTED ON WWW.EA.COM.

This community site is more or less an online feature that goes with the game, guess what happens when the game is not profitable enough for EA any more?


From the Terms of Service (link at bottom of page):

(...)
6. Contributing Your Own Content to EA Services; License Grant to EA and Others

In exchange for EA enabling your contribution of Content, when you contribute Content to an EA Service, you expressly grant to EA a non-exclusive, perpetual, worldwide, complete and irrevocable right to quote, re-post, use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, syndicate, license, print, sublicense, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the Content, or any portion thereof, in any manner or form and in any medium or forum, whether now known or hereafter devised, without notice, payment or attribution of any kind to you or any third party. You grant EA all licenses, consents and clearances to enable EA to use such Content for such purposes. You waive, and agree not to assert any moral or similar rights you may have in such Content.

If the EA Service on which you contribute Content permits other users to access and use that contributed Content as part of the EA Service, than you also grant all other users of the relevant EA Service the right to use, copy, modify, display, perform, create derivative works from, and otherwise communicate and distribute your contributed Content on or through the relevant EA Service without further notice, attribution or compensation to you.

This is also pretty clear, you give EA all rights to anything you upload here. Just one more reason for me to use a REAL comunity/mod site and not something that hangs on the goodwill and dollars of EA.

[Astorax]

Just to be clear Alexspeed, go read the EULA of the toolset (not the game, the toolset). Anything you make already is owned lock stock and barrel by Bioware/EA...posting it wherever you want, doesn't matter, it's still owned by them.

[Alexspeed]

Astorax wrote...

Just to be clear Alexspeed, go read the EULA of the toolset (not the game, the toolset). Anything you make already is owned lock stock and barrel by Bioware/EA...posting it wherever you want, doesn't matter, it's still owned by them.

Not incase i write a guide on an exernal site and link to it from my projects page as i did, EA has no ownership to that then. It would be different if i posted it on the blog thing you have here or directly in the forum i guess.

About the toolset you are right but i didnt used that jet, i wait for one that is less buggy.

[Astorax]

o.O Guides? Uh...huh. Okay, I'll admit, it never occured to me that EA might want to take ownership of a guide written by a community member for any reason...at least to the point where they'd forbid distribution of said information (as long as you aren't trying to sell it of course).

[XaocSlack]

*Nods to Astorax*

Thank you for pointing that out. People very rarely read what they are agreeing to.

Challseus wrote...
4) I have no reason to believe Bioware wouldn't make this site as good as it can be. I mean, the bottom line is it makes them money, and Bioware seems to know how to make money I mean, I guess in 8 years, the oh so evil overlords that are EA may shut this down, and if so, I will have no problem uploading my work at one of these other sites.

This site does not make money for EA/Bioware. In fact, this site is nothing but an expense. I don't pay anything to use it. I don't see any adverts.
It's sort of like a customer service/tech support call center. On paper the call center does nothing except eat money. Most people that have common sense realize that it is often the first line of customer service for a company, and the corporate food chain dictates that you should keep your customers happy. Customers provide dollars via purchases, those dollars provide the company with revenue, excess revenue provides CEO's giant end of year bonuses...
You know what they say about common sense. Having worked in a tech support call center for over a decade the corporate mentality is generally more along the lines of: We need to reduce expenses, what can we cut? Oh, these three departments are not providing any revenue. Can we outsource them? Yes! Wait... Not this one... Is it vital? Yes. Oh... then downsize it. A few years later, since there is only one or two guys left in the department it is no longer necessary and gets the axe completely.
Due to that behavior, and EA's apparent track record for customer service, I would be surprised if this site really makes it longer than a year, maybe two, once active development on the Dragon Age franchise ceases.

Edit: The following is not important for the discussion, so it gets placed at the bottom in an edit.
In regards to the people not reading what they agree to in regards to EULA's, AUP's, etc:
In the EULA for a major release software package (I think it was either Bioware, Oblivion, or Windows XP, but I'm not sure) there was a clause that stated "If you do not agree with these terms cancel installation and return the software to the store you purchased it at for a full refund." Most stores don't allow opened software returns... So, I tried it out... Best Buy was iritated when I showed back up with an annotated and highlighted copy of the EULA and showed them on thier computer where it was. They allowed the return. I then turned back around and bought a new copy of it from the same person that did the return.

Oh, and back in the late 80's/early 90's there was a game (which i can't recall at the moment, I think it was of the pinball variety) that had in it's EULA that you had to name the next born male child you had Charles. A friend of mine pointed this out when I asked why his sons middle name was charles.

Modifié par XaocSlack, 26 novembre 2009 - 06:17 .

[Proleric]

XaocSlack wrote...

Due to that behavior, and EA's apparent track record for customer service, I would be surprised if this site really makes it longer than a year, maybe two, once active development on the Dragon Age franchise ceases.

Can you name any modding sites EA has closed down, in support of that theory? The closest parallel to Dragon Age, the Neverwinter Nights site, is still going strong, years after the last expansion.

[Astorax]

Proleric1 wrote...

XaocSlack wrote...

Due to that behavior, and EA's apparent track record for customer service, I would be surprised if this site really makes it longer than a year, maybe two, once active development on the Dragon Age franchise ceases.

Can you name any modding sites EA has closed down, in support of that theory? The closest parallel to Dragon Age, the Neverwinter Nights site, is still going strong, years after the last expansion.

That's actually not a parallel since EA had nothing to do with NWN, that was all Bioware all the time.

[Challseus]

XaocSlack wrote...

*Nods to Astorax*

Thank you for pointing that out. People very rarely read what they are agreeing to.

Challseus wrote...
4) I have no reason to believe Bioware wouldn't make this site as good as it can be. I mean, the bottom line is it makes them money, and Bioware seems to know how to make money I mean, I guess in 8 years, the oh so evil overlords that are EA may shut this down, and if so, I will have no problem uploading my work at one of these other sites.

This site does not make money for EA/Bioware. In fact, this site is nothing but an expense. I don't pay anything to use it. I don't see any adverts...

Okay, obviously the site doesn't make money for Bioware directly, but indirectly, supporting a modding community benefits them in the long run, hence the site.

XaocSlack wrote...

Due to that behavior, and EA's apparent track record for customer service, I would be surprised if this site really makes it longer than a year, maybe two, once active development on the Dragon Age franchise ceases.

You really think that after everything they invested in the Dragon Age franchise, active development will be stopped in a year, maybe two? I guess anything is possible...

*Shrug*

Modifié par Challseus, 26 novembre 2009 - 01:32 .

[Dark0ne-]

RE: EA's ownership of any modules created in the toolset, this is pretty common across most majorly modded games. While EA/BioWare can claim ownership of .dazip files, and things specifically made inside the toolset, just like Bethesda can claim ownership over any .esp/.esm files, they cannot claim ownership of work made outside of the toolset. So that includes new models, textures, animations, etc.. Such has been my understanding of these EULA's for quite some time now. If anyone knows/thinks differently then speak your mind.

Can you name any modding sites EA has closed down, in support of that theory? The closest parallel to Dragon Age, the Neverwinter Nights site, is still going strong, years after the last expansion.

As far as I know this is the first modding site EA/BioWare have actually set up. The Neverwinter Nights community was serviced by NWVault, which, as you know, is an IGN franchise. So this is definately a wait-and-see moment. For me, it's a battle of the awesome reputation and integrity of BioWare versus the well documented seedy, profiteering nature of EA. Whoever wins the battle it is sure to be interesting.

Okay, obviously the site doesn't make money for Bioware directly, but indirectly, supporting a modding community benefits them in the long run, hence the site.

Indeed, not only does a modding community indirectly help to bolster sales of the initial product as modding becomes more and more mainstream and common place, it also indirectly increases exposure to the DLCs available for sale. The same DLCs that have earnt EA/BioWare $1m already, probably a lot more since that announcement was made. Good on them, I say.

Modifié par Dark0ne-, 26 novembre 2009 - 01:45 .

[Dark0ne-]

From my understanding they have an exclusive right to the dazip's themselves. Essentially it's to cover their own backsides incase of legal matters, especially involving licensing.

There was a case in the Elder Scrolls community a couple of years back whereby someone made a mod that transferred all the assets over from an installation of Morrowind on your computer to the Oblivion game. You needed Morrowind and Oblivion installed for it to work, it contained no assets from the game itself in the downloadable mod as it was just a converter, but a request was sent out for all sites hosting the mod to remove it. I say a request, and I respect Bethesda for it, because it could have been a legal cease and desist order (and would have been had appropriate action not been taken in a timely fashion). Bethesda could do this because they had the rights to content made inside their toolset, so they had the rights to the .esm/.esp format, no matter where it was hosted.

This is important because they need to protect the assets and licenses they have for Morrowind/Oblivion just like EA/BioWare need to protect their assets and licenses. Not all the assets in Dragon Age will have been made by BioWare, they'll have licenses for certain content, certain techniques, certain tools, and they need to protect these licenses so that the license owners don't throw a law suit at them. They can do this through owning the rights to the dazips themselves.

This is my understanding of the subject, coming from someone who doesn't have a background in law. So take it with a pinch or salt as there's no doubt way more to it.

Modifié par Dark0ne-, 26 novembre 2009 - 01:53 .

[Adinos]

What not to do:

So, if you want to avoid hearing from EA's lawyers, here is a short list of things to avoid:

1) Violate the intellectual property rights of a third party. This includes creating a mod that takes settings, characters or plots from another work - a book, movie or a computer game - even a game that BioWare was involved with in the past. Also, this includes taking models, textures or other assets from other games and converting them to DA.

2) Rip off Bioware/EA by using their assets in a different game - in other words, don't use DA assets for anything but DA.

3) Attempt to make money off content you create with the DA toolset. In other words, don't even think of trying to sell your mods, unless it is done within a framework set up by EA/BioWare.

4) Create content that violates laws and/or common decency - no, I'm not talking about an innocent nude mod, but say, something like a hate-filled "KIll the [insert your favourite derogatory ethnic slur]" mod.

Modifié par Adinos, 26 novembre 2009 - 02:21 .

[giskard44]

EA own the very commands used to create your scripts so if you use those commands then your using their intellectual property and so they have copyright ownership over the script before you even start writing it.

As modder for a number of decades now I see it like this, I ask EA nicely "Can i modify your game Mr EA" and they say "Yes but under these conditions", if I agree with EAs Eula, then I go a head and mod their game. If i do not, then I go and mod some other game.

So I have no automatic right to do anything , EA is the one giving us permission so EA is the one we must thank and turn too.

Those who assume they own anything should think again, EA has a prior claim and can insist you remove all copyrighted stuff they own from your mod, which usually means theres nothing left. But the idea and the work put in to it, thats yours, they do not own that.

This leaves you in a position to expect to be asked if EA wants to use your stuff, because EA has nothing if you chose not to let them use your hard work and you have nothing if they say, fine remove everything we own then. So its a partnership between the modder and the copyright owner, a little like a marrage.

You agree to their Eula, you agree to the above.

The trouble comes when foolish people start believing they have some god given right to mod a game, that just is not true. Modding by its very nature can be seen as reverse engineering a game and that is usually explicitly forbidden in most games standard Eulas. Companies choose to see modders as fans of the game out to have fun and make a distinction between modding a game and reverse engineering it. But they can just as easily turn around and ignore the distinction and say your in breach by reverse engineering a game if you push them too far.

Also, God forbid I ever agree with darkone but there is a profit angle to this for companies, modding does increase sales. I for one buy games I can mod in preference to other games I cannot mod, so I prove my own point here. For example, would I have purchases Dragon Age the moment it was released if it had no modding options, my answer, probably not. Playing the game for me is half the fun, modding it is the other half.

Also DLCs are just the companies way of realising they can make money by modding their own game. Since its only taken the professionals 30 years to wake up to that fact, I personally think the gaming industry is a little slow to catch on here. I admit to finding this a little funny. Just a little, its a highly trained business man not seeing an opertunity for profit when its uploaded to servers and getting thousands of downloads, that tickles me.

But now they have noticed this,  we see sites like this social site appearing and full support for modders on  the official site. The very thing modders like my self have wanted to see for decades and pushed for. There was a time when devs simply ignored modders completely, refusing to even acknowledge we existed but likewise not acting to stop us either. I think todays generation should understand thats how this started, so look around, this is a pretty big improvement over that wouldnt you say ?

The day is coming when I will not need my own site to make mods and support them. But thats a long way off, theres nothing that can replace your own personal website if your a modder, just organizing protects your planning to develope requires admin access and site features even biowares site does not have. Places to upload WIP files, either full mods, or images, sounds or partly completed material. Full control over forum threads, methods for helpers to send you files, these are things modders need that are lacking right now.

So this journey is not over yet but speaking as a modder of some experience, I am enjoying the trip.

Modifié par giskard44, 26 novembre 2009 - 04:01 .