100 réponses à ce sujet

[kilrex]

I keep trying to figure out how to write up some feedback about this site, but I think I just don't have the right vocabulary to do a decent job of it. I'd need a much richer knowledge of HCI/usuability to be able to do so.



Basically though, I really like this site for finding information, but when looking for projects this site just doesn't work very well.



I'm kind of curious why the projects section isn't laid out like the forums section. That is, unless the site was not intended to host say more than 100 projects or so, However it's up to over 600, and the whole process of digging through the listings to find something obscure is pretty painful.



The first thing missing really if much finer grain categories

Then there should be a way of drilling down from the start of the the site, to a list of overall categories, to a list of fine grain categories and then finally to a list of those projects in the category.

This along with being able to search using category as just one of the possible criteria.

Of the top of my head, when search for mods at least, being able to filter by ratings of the mod, downloads of mods, suggested play time for the mod, author/owner group,. To make sure projects don't feel left out, you'd probably include some sort of project activity rating, along with number of project members, maybe even by a count files/mods/documents produced by the project.



Oh as for categories for projects, it's probably better these days to have a range of predefined keywords instead, and then a project categorizes itself by selecting from a number of these key words.



last thing, from mod seeker point of view - seperate out face morphs from models/meshes, technically they're the same thing, but the face morphs are a subcat of models, and it's so easy produce so many variations that any other models will get hidden in the noise

[FalloutBoy]

Jim_uk wrote...

http://games.ea.com/information.jsp

A lot of those games are not very old at all, it didn't stop them pulling the plug.

Yeah, I see a lot of sports titles that got shut down so as to encourage people to buy the new version. That's pretty much business as usual for sports games. A one-year-old sports title is considered obsolete. Sucks for the people who spent $60 on it, but that's why sports games are ripoffs. If that is the only justification for why you think this site is doomed, that is a stretch.

[Jim_uk]

Proleric1 wrote...

Jim_uk wrote...
http://games.ea.com/information.jsp
A lot of those games are not very old at all, it didn't stop them pulling the plug.

Um... so since there's a risk that my house might fall down one day, I'd better go outside and take my chances in the snow with the wolves?

Anyone with any sense has their house insured which is what spreading these files around does. What those in favour in keeping everything here are asking people to do is trust EA, with their track record I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

[Phaenan]

Jim_uk wrote...
Anyone with any sense has their house insured which is what spreading these files around does.

I don't need spreading my files around to prevent their loss. I do my own incremental backups and that a bunch of times more secure than uploading stuff to any site. If one day Nexus and Social@Bioware came to die, well I'll simply put the files elsewhere and pretty much every author or group a tad serious about their project(s) would do the same... Having to publish on several community sites is not about keeping the eggs in several baskets. It's only about indulging players convenience at the cost of the authors/groups inconvenience.

Modifié par Phaenan, 30 novembre 2009 - 12:04 .

[Dark0ne-]

Do you publish mods for your convenience or for the player's convenience?

[Ginggis Khan]

This website is too messy. Thats the only definition I can chose for it. Everything seems fine, but there is just too much stuff. I like that you guys are trying to combine things and make it as a portal, but the overall layout of the site is a bit "uninviting". Also you messed it guys up from the very beginning. Ive tried to use your portal, but game picture uploads didn't work. My stats wouldn't show until like 3 weeks into gameplay, etc. I just switched to damods.com. I certainly come here for forum trolling, but it was quite a failure if you ask me this whole social bioware thing,



I think you might consider changing the layout of the portal to make it more intuitive and the theme itself is not attractive at all but more of an opposite. My opinion of course. Some people may like the theme.

[Proleric]

Jim_uk wrote...

Proleric1 wrote...

Jim_uk wrote...
http://games.ea.com/information.jsp
A lot of those games are not very old at all, it didn't stop them pulling the plug.

Um... so since there's a risk that my house might fall down one day, I'd better go outside and take my chances in the snow with the wolves?

Anyone with any sense has their house insured which is what spreading these files around does. What those in favour in keeping everything here are asking people to do is trust EA, with their track record I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

:PIt's not really about trust so much as taking a balanced view of the risks.

In your worst nightmare, the most EA might do is give notice of site closure a bit earlier than we'd like. That might not happen - EA seems to have a more mature outlook recently -  but there'd be plenty of time to address the issue if and when it arose.

We have to balance that risk against more immediate dangers, such as fragmenting the community, and by-passing the protection this site has created for authors who want to share content without hassle.

Sadly, there are wolves out there, and they hunt in packs these days. Whatever else you might think about EA, they've done a good job of keeping the anti-social element away from Dragon Age. Other sites are not able to offer the same protection.

So, to take your analogy, using an alternate hosting site is not so much like taking out house insurance, as leaving your front door unlocked. Neighbourly, good in case of fire, but frankly unwise, in today's world.

Modifié par Proleric1, 30 novembre 2009 - 10:18 .

[Adaram]

Ginggis Khan wrote...

This website is too messy. Thats the only definition I can chose for it. Everything seems fine, but there is just too much stuff. I like that you guys are trying to combine things and make it as a portal, but the overall layout of the site is a bit "uninviting". Also you messed it guys up from the very beginning. Ive tried to use your portal, but game picture uploads didn't work. My stats wouldn't show until like 3 weeks into gameplay, etc. I just switched to damods.com. I certainly come here for forum trolling, but it was quite a failure if you ask me this whole social bioware thing,

I think you might consider changing the layout of the portal to make it more intuitive and the theme itself is not attractive at all but more of an opposite. My opinion of course. Some people may like the theme.

There is definitely room for improvement on this site. Do you have some concrete suggestions that Jesse and team could use?

[Jim_uk]

Proleric1 wrote...

Jim_uk wrote...

Proleric1 wrote...

Jim_uk wrote...
http://games.ea.com/information.jsp
A lot of those games are not very old at all, it didn't stop them pulling the plug.

Um... so since there's a risk that my house might fall down one day, I'd better go outside and take my chances in the snow with the wolves?

Anyone with any sense has their house insured which is what spreading these files around does. What those in favour in keeping everything here are asking people to do is trust EA, with their track record I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

:PIt's not really about trust so much as taking a balanced view of the risks.

In your worst nightmare, the most EA might do is give notice of site closure a bit earlier than we'd like. That might not happen - EA seems to have a more mature outlook recently -  but there'd be plenty of time to address the issue if and when it arose.

We have to balance that risk against more immediate dangers, such as fragmenting the community, and by-passing the protection this site has created for authors who want to share content without hassle.

Sadly, there are wolves out there, and they hunt in packs these days. Whatever else you might think about EA, they've done a good job of keeping the anti-social element away from Dragon Age. Other sites are not able to offer the same protection.

So, to take your analogy, using an alternate hosting site is not so much like taking out house insurance, as leaving your front door unlocked. Neighbourly, good in case of fire, but frankly unwise, in today's world.

No point in having insurance if you leave the door open, they will more than likely not pay up.

Anyway I agree about the protection for modders but those who take mods and upload them somewhere else without the makers consent thus taking control of someone else's work will do so whatever happens here. Maybe it's best to become involved in these other sites to at least have a say on what happens. Nexus do their best to protect modders, uploading someone else's work there without their permission will get you warned and the file removed, upload something an take the credit for it may well result in a ban. What I like about independent sites is the lack of bean counters and PR people, you need worry less about stuff that may be controversial.  They also fix problems a lot quicker, this site is still a mess while an independent site would have got things fixed by now. How hard can it be to filter out the stuff with no files? it's a no brainer and yet it's still not been done.

[Proleric]

Jim_uk wrote...
Anyway I agree about the protection for modders but those who take mods and upload them somewhere else without the makers consent thus taking control of someone else's work will do so whatever happens here. Maybe it's best to become involved in these other sites to at least have a say on what happens. Nexus do their best to protect modders, uploading someone else's work there without their permission will get you warned and the file removed, upload something an take the credit for it may well result in a ban...

Nexus has already made it clear that module builders will not be protected as we are on the EA social site. On the contrary, the Nexus policy you mention is wide open to exploitation by organised groups like those we have seen on Neverwinter Nights.

Let me explain how the nightmare unfolds. Serious modules for DA will involve months or years of work, in which teams of builders configure components made by others. Once the module is complete, and players are happily downloading it, what happens if a team member or component maker says "ah yes but you don't have permission to use my work"?

According to the Nexus philosophy, the module gets pulled, players are disappointed, and the builders have to decide whether to throw away all that work, or invest weeks and months replacing the toxic content.

The way Nexus intends to avoid that is to force module builders to obtain permission to use components in advance. That potentially gives organised groups power over the rest of us - a recipe for discrimination and petty tyranny.

For example, whereas players probably prefer to download one module package, on past experience the groups will insist that their content is downloaded separately. That puts them in a position to withdraw the content in the event of a dispute. What we have seen is that not only gives them power over individuals, but allows them to hold the entire community to ransom in order to force their political agenda on us.

None of this anti-social behaviour is permissible under the EA social site terms, so there's nothing for potential builders to worry about as long as the community focus is here. Give component makers credit for their hard work, name and shame those who don't, but don't open the door to tyranny

Modifié par Proleric1, 01 décembre 2009 - 08:41 .

[asaiasai]

I checked here but my major concern is that how are you going to deal with censorship in the mods section. There are several nude mods avalaible already i know i have them, (got them from Dragon Age Nexus) now the content is not Boiware content but is the company going to cave to pressure from the ESRB if it threatens to change the rating on the game very similar in fashion to GTA San Andreas Hot Coffee Mod?



I will not make any apologies to anyone for my choices in game options, and i back up that statment with money. When i found out that the version of The Witcher that was going to be avaliable for purchase in the US was going to be censored i bought an imported copy, i paid through the nose for the game 75 us dollars for an uncensored version. I guess the real issue is, is Bioware going to have the stones to host the "questionable" content files? This is important because if i have to go to a different site to get the mods i want i might as well get the rest there as well.



I honestly think that the game needs to be made in 2 versions one for the prudes and one for the rest of us, and i for one would be willing to have professional adult content cost more and pay that price to ensure that it stays out of the hands of the folks who either do not approve or are to young to access it. So iguess it boils down to this Bioware you need to decide what is important to you, a healty mod community that has a supported infrastructure where modders can post all thier mods regardless of who approves or one that floats along on the whim of the month from some effite over paid executive worried about thier ESRB rating?



Asai

[Jim_uk]

Proleric1 wrote...

Jim_uk wrote...
Anyway I agree about the protection for modders but those who take mods and upload them somewhere else without the makers consent thus taking control of someone else's work will do so whatever happens here. Maybe it's best to become involved in these other sites to at least have a say on what happens. Nexus do their best to protect modders, uploading someone else's work there without their permission will get you warned and the file removed, upload something an take the credit for it may well result in a ban...

Nexus has already made it clear that module builders will not be protected as we are on the EA social site. On the contrary, the Nexus policy you mention is wide open to exploitation by organised groups like those we have seen on Neverwinter Nights.

Let me explain how the nightmare unfolds. Serious modules for DA will involve months or years of work, in which teams of builders configure components made by others. Once the module is complete, and players are happily downloading it, what happens if a team member or component maker says "ah yes but you don't have permission to use my work"?

According to the Nexus philosophy, the module gets pulled, players are disappointed, and the builders have to decide whether to throw away all that work, or invest weeks and months replacing the toxic content.

The way Nexus intends to avoid that is to force module builders to obtain permission to use components in advance. That potentially gives organised groups power over the rest of us - a recipe for discrimination and petty tyranny.

For example, whereas players probably prefer to download one module package, on past experience the groups will insist that their content is downloaded separately. That puts them in a position to withdraw the content in the event of a dispute. What we have seen is that not only gives them power over individuals, but allows them to hold the entire community to ransom in order to force their political agenda on us.

None of this anti-social behaviour is permissible under the EA social site terms, so there's nothing for potential builders to worry about as long as the community focus is here. Give component makers credit for their hard work, name and shame those who don't, but don't open the door to tyranny

What's wrong with asking before using something created by someone else? I would have thought it was common courtesy to ask before using someone elses work. Talk of political agendas and tyranny is a little extreme.  Just look at huge amount of content available on the Nexus sites for Fallout, Oblivion and Morrowind, the system works.

Modifié par Jim_uk, 01 décembre 2009 - 10:59 .

[Dark0ne-]

From what I can tell Proleric wants everything made and uploaded for Dragon Age to be completely open source, so that everyone can use everyone elses content in their own mods, the open-source "Bazaar" method if you will.

That's something Nexus sites don't officially endorse as we leave it up to the original creators of the content to decide if they'd like everyone to be able to use their work, or whether they want it "closed off" and just as an end product in itself.

Our rule is simple, if permission has been received for a user's work to be used in another mod then that permission is absolute and cannot be revoked except in a breach of any terms that might have been decided upon. If there were no terms set then the permission is absolute. The original author cannot revoke that permission at a time that suits them (i.e. when their work is used in a big mod that's just launched). Indeed, Nexus moderators have dedicated hundreds of hours in the Elder Scrolls community getting to the bottom of these sorts of disputes and it leaves sour tastes in many people's mouths (not mentioning any names ), and perhaps it's not the easy or simple way of doing things, but I still believe that original creators should have an initial say in how and where their work is used.

Modifié par Dark0ne-, 01 décembre 2009 - 01:43 .

[Proleric]

Jim_uk wrote...
What's wrong with asking before using something created by someone else? I would have thought it was common courtesy to ask before using someone elses work. Talk of political agendas and tyranny is a little extreme.  Just look at huge amount of content available on the Nexus sites for Fallout, Oblivion and Morrowind, the system works.

You can't be serious. No player has to ask me before downloading my modules!

As a writer whose work includes gender-agnostic romance and adult content, I fundamentally object to submitting my work to vetting. I don't have to ask Bioware before using their components, so why should I have to ask anyone else? Suppliers should not be encouraged to discriminate, period.

My experience has been that the minority who favour content control are always trying to boss us around in other ways, too. If that's not political, I'm not sure what is.

By lobbying for Nexus here, you're re-opening painful issues that were recently closed as far as I was concerned. With respect, it would be very much better for all concerned if you left this site in peace.

Modifié par Proleric1, 01 décembre 2009 - 12:17 .

[Phaenan]

Dark0ne- wrote...
Do you publish mods for your convenience or for the player's convenience?

Why. What I do, I do for myself. Me, myself, and I.
If what I do happens to be useful to others, fine, great, all the better, I'll get more satisfaction out of it. But when it come to whatever I do on my spare time, no, by all means I am not working in some kind of service industry. And I won't naively pretend I only publish an addon wishing to serve or please others : the only person I want to please is me. Call me cynical, or rational.

Modifié par Phaenan, 01 décembre 2009 - 12:27 .

[AND04]

Proleric1 wrote...

Jim_uk wrote...
What's wrong with asking before using something created by someone else? I would have thought it was common courtesy to ask before using someone elses work. Talk of political agendas and tyranny is a little extreme.  Just look at huge amount of content available on the Nexus sites for Fallout, Oblivion and Morrowind, the system works.

You can't be serious. No player has to ask me before downloading my modules!

As a writer whose work includes gender-agnostic romance and adult content, I fundamentally object to submitting my work to vetting. I don't have to ask Bioware before using their components, so why should I have to ask anyone else? Suppliers should not be encouraged to discriminate, period.

My experience has been that the minority who favour content control are always trying to boss us around in other ways, too. If that's not political, I'm not sure what is.

By lobbying for Nexus here, you're re-opening painful issues that were recently closed as far as I was concerned. With respect, it would be very much better for all concerned if you left this site in peace.

as for downloading someones modules - sure - but using them as part of a biger module imo that depends - if the source is provided (aka a Builder to Builder package) sure that could be seen as free to use - but if it isn't its just common courtesy to ask - and at least give credit - "selling" someone else work as your own is just plain cheap.

[giskard44]

Phaenan wrote...

Dark0ne- wrote...
Do you publish mods for your convenience or for the player's convenience?

Why. What I do, I do for myself. Me, myself, and I.
If what I do happens to be useful to others, fine, great, all the better, I'll get more satisfaction out of it. But when it come to whatever I do on my spare time, no, by all means I am not working in some kind of service industry. And I won't naively pretend I only publish an addon wishing to serve or please others : the only person I want to please is me. Call me cynical, or rational.

I happen to agree with you here.

This is the friendliest community I have joined in the last 3 years because most here have the same opinion you do. Modders here want to be helpful to others and they want to share what they made and put a smile on other peoples faces.  Nobody here believes by releasing a mod means you have signed a life time contract to slave after other people that did nothing for you but take your mods and demand your time.

But that is exactly what they expect over in Elder Scrolls community where Nexus is a major player.

Much of what Darkone talks about is an issue over there but not over here.

For example if I made a mistake in a post over in the ES community, I would see a line of trolls queuing to bash my head in for it because they live to catch folk that mess up. But here when I make mistakes (and i have), I get friendly supportive advice and help correcting that mistake.

I think the maturity of the users here is high enough to handle its own problems sensibly. Any site wishing to support it will have to trust it.

[FollowTheGourd]

I don't know how the EA policy is going to ensure things run any more more smoothly than elsewhere - what's to stop somebody from uploading something they don't have the rights to, you use the content in your own mod, but then you don't find out until later on that it's "hot" - or have them complain at you anyway about using their content in your mod... maybe they don't complain on the EA site, but put down your mod everywhere else there's an audience (e.g., "thanks for stealing my custom hats!")...



Sure, they have people who *may* eventually get around to keeping order beyond the obvious copyright infringement cases, but I remember things like open source themes-and-wallpaper sites where people just slap on a GPL label to obviously copyrighted works and call it a day... or take youtube for another example... I'm pretty a good chunk of what's on there is against the terms of service.

[ladydesire]

Jim_uk wrote...


What's wrong with asking before using something created by someone else? I would have thought it was common courtesy to ask before using someone elses work. Talk of political agendas and tyranny is a little extreme.  Just look at huge amount of content available on the Nexus sites for Fallout, Oblivion and Morrowind, the system works.

Ask the folks that don't ask and then try to act the the author is the rude person for asking for his or her content to be removed from a major content compilation... :innocent:

[giskard44]

ladydesire wrote...

Jim_uk wrote...


What's wrong with asking before using something created by someone else? I would have thought it was common courtesy to ask before using someone elses work. Talk of political agendas and tyranny is a little extreme.  Just look at huge amount of content available on the Nexus sites for Fallout, Oblivion and Morrowind, the system works.

Ask the folks that don't ask and then try to act the the author is the rude person for asking for his or her content to be removed from a major content compilation... :innocent:

Those who do correct a mistake tend to earn my respect and trust, i think it says a lot when they do that.

Its like shops/companies, I judge them not by how good their service is when things go well but how good it is when things go wrong.

[TheMutator]

It all comes down to a very simple yet fairly complex question. Why do you create and release mods? Depending on the individual answer the opinions of every creator about this social site here may vary widely. Possible answers are "recognition and fame", "personal growth through feedback" and "commercial or job related reasons".

It is a fact, that EA is in serious financial troubles like never before, even firing people who are still deeply involved in projects to cut costs wherever possible. EA is a big holding company and sites like the one here are good for revenue, marketing and exposure. BioWare is currently a great cash cow for EA but one year from now it may be different and this site, along with all the content as well as any purchased DLC may perish.

Another factor is the liability of EA, directly and/or indirectly, for the content hosted here. With officiality and liability comes cencorship. That's only natural and not the fault of EA or BioWare but certain mods will be removed from this site and I can guarantee that because no company wan't to be connected with some of the stuff modders create. But it's exactly this kind of content that's pushing the limits, inspires innovation and allows every taste to be served.

These are only two factors, there are more, but try now to pair your answer from above with those two statements and the consequences should become apparent. I create mods for myself to increase my knowledge, train my abilities and mastering challenges. Feedback is, for me, the primary reason to release my stuff. Ok, some kind of résumé is certainly helpfull when engaging in discussions because you gain more weight and your questions are more often and better answered. In the end however I don't care if my mods disappear into the void because I have them here on my own drive and the feedback I received has already found it's way intwo my work and mind. I deeply dislike EA though (love BioWare but they are now just worker-slaves to the big overlord) and that's why I hope other modding sites, nexus for example, will prevail.

Modifié par TheMutator, 02 décembre 2009 - 01:25 .

[giskard44]

Well EA swallow up smaller developers and start churning out mainstream versions of their games, often alienating the games original fans to the point where the original reason for EA buying those companies is destroyed. They then have to make a new market for new games made under those companies names but after a few years the companies name is worthless having been destroyed by dozens of average mainstream game releases and EA end up dropping it.



Thus losing the benefits of its original investment.



For example Maxis was well know for its simulation games like Sim Earth, Sim Ant, Sim City, not anymore. Today its just another mainstream brand and its original fans have long since looked else where for their games (I am one).



I really hate to see big companies swallow up the small ones because I know it means the end of all that I liked about those companies. For example Bullfrog, makers of Dungeon Keeper, Syndicate, Theme Hospital and others where brought out and nothing even close to the quality of those games ever came from the Bullfrog brand after that. The same is true for Microprose.



I was a big customer of both until they where taken over.

All my favourite developers went the same way, though some reappeared under new names such as muckyfoot and Lionhead or Fraxis and produced a few more original titles for me to enjoy.

[Proleric]

Um... I think we're losing the plot. Regardless of what anyone thinks about EA, let's be clear - undermining this site doesn't hurt EA much. It's just a poke in the eye to writers like me who want to make new adventures for Dragon Age and publish them safely - and uncensored - here.

Bioware communities have always been about sharing - that's the big cultural difference that this discussion is all about.

[Adaram]

Proleric1 wrote...

Um... I think we're losing the plot. Regardless of what anyone thinks about EA, let's be clear - undermining this site doesn't hurt EA much. It's just a poke in the eye to writers like me who want to make new adventures for Dragon Age and publish them safely - and uncensored - here.
Bioware communities have always been about sharing - that's the big cultural difference that this discussion is all about.

I agree that it wouldn't impact EA much at all. Might impact Bioware more, which is why I would like to see this site succeed in a tremendous way -- Bioware deserves that.

I agree with Proleric's and other people's motivations for building ... it's fun, and it's about community.