153 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

CrustyBot wrote...

post on RPGCodex which I felt was relevant.

[snip]

Trufax.

But that said, of course Hepler is getting disporportionate (not to mention sexist) backlash for what was actually a failure on the part of EA to give the writers sufficient time to write a verison of the script that was final draft quality.

She also kinda gets a pass on my for writing poorly under poor deadline/editing conditions because she wrote the dwarf bits in DA:O, which were easily the best part of the game.

[KotorEffect3]

Gamers and often people on the internet in general often lack perspective

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A game story writer writes stories. Not gameplay mechanics or combat scenarios. There's no innate need to like all aspects of the medium.

 

There isn't a "need," no, but if there's a dislike, that dislike will influence that person's job in their area of expertise, which seems like a bad idea.

Unless you insist that everyone love everything about their job, that's kind of the nature of reality, mate. People cope, and carry on, and do what they're better at and enjoy more.

It's hardly unnatural, and insisting on anything else is pretty unreasonable.

Yeah well she can hate everything about her job as long she is doing a good job at it regardless. But saying that in an interview would be a bit like shooting yourself in the foot. However, it was 6 years ago, I am sure she learned that lesson.

And, er, that she never said that she hated everything about her job.

Or even that she hated the gameplay aspect.

So, yeah. I'm sure she learned 'that lesson', on account that she never violated it.

She basically said she doesn't like the gameplay aspect about video games and that she would rather skip them. Of course everyone who thinks that Bioware games have poor gameplay went 'AHA'! I mean that's what people are like and if you work in a sort of a public job (if you're doing interviews etc.it's sort of public) then you have watch your words. That's what's to learn. Not saying that she is wrong. Mind you if combat was skippable I'd at least give it a shot to see what it is like. But I really think gameplay and story should work together, not apart from each other which is often the case in Bioware games. And that's probably what people annoyed about it.

[Matt251287]

This is pretty awful.

I have no problem with her statements at all, or with her place at Bioware. Game sudios NEED writers, she writes, that's what she likes, she doesn't have to like the games at all.

For the love of God i study 'Motorsport Engineering', i applied for a job at a place that designs racing gearboxes, fact is i've learned i think racing can be a load of pretentious crap and i don't care who wins. Does that mean i couldn't do my job? **** No.
 
 
 
Hell, if there's one thing all videogames suffer from it's poor-writing, that's the videogame cancer. We need all the dedicated writers we can get!

Modifié par Matt251287, 21 février 2012 - 12:05 .

[panamakira]

Most people online make atrocious comments as if they had a pea sized brain, so hopefully she just brushes it off. None of these people would ever say it to someone's face anyway but hide behind their computer to insult others.

[Backslash93]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Uezurii wrote...

easygame88 wrote...

Funny, but really in my opinion the bits she's written for Dragon Age and Star Wars have been pretty good.

I dont agree with that, she butchered Anders.

Please don't remind me of that...... My mind likes to think DA2 was just a bad dream.

I thought Anders in DA2 was a step up from the Awakening one. He became a tortured soul and zealot of justice instead of staying the same old Alistair clone.

[Chala]

Travie wrote...

Did helper write anything for ME3? I don't dislike her or anything... but I hope not after DA:2.

Nop, she was working for SW:TOR

[Travie]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Nobody likes you EA.

Sorry, I just want to fit in.

Ok, heres your membership card, your garage key, and your complimentary "I HATE EA" cap.

Just remember, you don't get your Tshirt until 40 rants or above.

[Chromie]

El_Chala_Legalizado wrote...

Travie wrote...

Did helper write anything for ME3? I don't dislike her or anything... but I hope not after DA:2.

Nop, she was working for SW:TOR

Well that doesn't help either...

[CostinRaz]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

post on RPGCodex which I felt was relevant.

[snip]

Trufax.

But that said, of course Hepler is getting disporportionate (not to mention sexist) backlash for what was actually a failure on the part of EA to give the writers sufficient time to write a verison of the script that was final draft quality.

She also kinda gets a pass on my for writing poorly under poor deadline/editing conditions because she wrote the dwarf bits in DA:O, which were easily the best part of the game.

Destroying what Anders was as a character was not due to lack of time, it was due to just well...bad writing. Does Hepler deserve all the hate? No, not really, but she ain't getting all that because of her own actions. She's getting all the hate that is also directed as Gaider and Laidlaw.

I personally just pray to God she and Gaider never have ANY role in the story of ME game, ever. As for Laidlaw...I don't think he deserves the **** he got.

Modifié par CostinRaz, 21 février 2012 - 12:08 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

Someone made a post on RPGCodex which I felt was relevant. FWIW, I don't support any of the personal attacks on Mrs. Hepler but the post does shed some light on why people were angry enough to post such things about her regardless of whether you agree with it or not.

I sincerely hope you didn't write that tripe.

the worst part of that forum isn't the overzealous moderation, it's the echo chamber effect where any voice of dissent is shot down by other posters. It's demoralizing to post legitimate criticism only to be called a troll, or have all your carefully thought out points be called wrong for stupid reasons. 

Just sayin'.

[KotorEffect3]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

More like, BW writer says:

"I don't like playing games."

"I think all cutscenes need to be completely skippable."

THEN gamers hate on her.

What they're doing is wrong, but she isn't exactly "innocent," for lack of a better word.

No, there really isn't any excuse for people behaving like idiots or spouting crap like that - none, zero, zilch, nada. You can't excuse away such crappy public behavior. Why is she "responsible" for it? For having an opinion about valuing story over combat and just plain not enjoying combat? She never said they should do away with combat for those who enjoy it.

There's nothing inherently wrong with what she said - her job is to write and has nothing to do with the implementation of combat in games. People complain on the BSN so bloody often about the emphasis on combat in ME3, etc. that you'd think they'd value someone who considers story to be a major part of the game. I wouldn't be surprised if those tweets are from some of the idiots who post on the BSN forums (like they don't spout enough venom on a daily basis).

I woud bet money that it is somebody from the bsn

[ObserverStatus]

panamakira wrote...

Most people online make atrocious comments as if they had a pea sized brain, so hopefully she just brushes it off. None of these people would ever say it to someone's face anyway but hide behind their computer to insult others.

But that's why this turned into such a big issue, it seems that Hepler and Flynn didn't know better than to feed the trolls.

Modifié par bobobo878, 21 février 2012 - 12:09 .

[Farbautisonn]

Even traditional Pen and paper tabletop gaming groups have variation. Some groups like hack and slash, some groups love lore and stories, and others nitpic over rules. So she likes stories. So do I. I really didnt care too much for rolling D20ies constantly. I didnt care too much for my stats either. I didnt give a crap about combat. I was there for the story. I was one of three main protagonists in my own private epic LotR-esque adventure. I was more into politics and lore than bashing some orc over the head and getting fat loot. I usually took promises of favors rather than rewards. And if the story was good I really didnt care if I went "ding" after a week of intensive gaming sessions or three. My GM and the others knew the lore of our setting, knew the rules and had rolled enough d20ies to last a lifetime.

We didnt want to bother with that. So we left the outcome to the GM and rolled an occasional d20 if the DM really felt like it. And we were fine with that.

The only computer game that came close to that was Planescape torment. Story and lore up the kazoo. I liked that. Taste is subjective. Taste also evolves over time. Even for games and gaming studios.

[KotorEffect3]

Ringo12 wrote...

El_Chala_Legalizado wrote...

Travie wrote...

Did helper write anything for ME3? I don't dislike her or anything... but I hope not after DA:2.

Nop, she was working for SW:TOR

Well that doesn't help either...

Have you even played TOR?

[Almostfaceman]

Nobody shoud be treated this way for voicing their opinion on working on/playing with video games. The day someone invents something to really enforce good manners on the internet (which will probably never happen) will be an awesome day indeed. There's far too much agressiveness, hate speech, name-calling, etc.

We're all supposed to be civilized human beings, let's try to act like it.

[LilyasAvalon]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

post on RPGCodex which I felt was relevant.

[snip]

Trufax.

But that said, of course Hepler is getting disporportionate (not to mention sexist) backlash for what was actually a failure on the part of EA to give the writers sufficient time to write a verison of the script that was final draft quality.

She also kinda gets a pass on my for writing poorly under poor deadline/editing conditions because she wrote the dwarf bits in DA:O, which were easily the best part of the game.

I honestly have to wonder if she did those on her own though or not... I mean, I look at the quality between those Origins (Which I did love) and Anders in DA2 and I go.... 'Are we sure this is the same writer?'

[Dave of Canada]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because if she writes stories for games, her responsibility is the story, and not the gameplay.

Though gameplay and story are intertwined, one cannot have the story be seperated from the gameplay or you're going to have a very disjointed experience. When gameplay is introduced and invokes the feeling onto the player which the story is trying to portray, it creates a stronger experience and makes the game much more memorable.

When the writer wishes to skip gameplay and all the benefits that could bring her written word, it does cause some concern at the future route for these games where gameplay and story will be completely seperate beasts. I shouldn't want to sit down, place the game into the tray and say to myself "I can't wait to watch the cutscenes!".

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 février 2012 - 12:11 .

[Dean_the_Young]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Proficient and enjoy--no. But the problem is, in games the gameplay is not segregated from the story; they overlap, or at least hopefully they do. Skipping gameplay means that the subsequient experience will be unnaturally segregated.

Only if the story is insert into the gameplay.

Which, in the vast majority of gameplay and games, it isn't. You could cut out the vast majority of all gameplay (puzzles, fights, races, what have you) and have the exact same story, since the hyper-majority of the story is distinct from gameplay elements so as to not, you know, distract the player.

Not even Half-Life, the epitome of merging story into gameplay, put the story inside the fights. So I'll call bull on that.


More to the point, this is Bioware. Story comes in dialogue sections between gameplay, in conversation pieces. Ambient chatter is primarily used for characterization (companion interaction) and guiding the player (what they need to do to proceed).

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

CostinRaz wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

post on RPGCodex which I felt was relevant.

[snip]

Trufax.

But that said, of course Hepler is getting disporportionate (not to mention sexist) backlash for what was actually a failure on the part of EA to give the writers sufficient time to write a verison of the script that was final draft quality.

She also kinda gets a pass on my for writing poorly under poor deadline/editing conditions because she wrote the dwarf bits in DA:O, which were easily the best part of the game.

Destroying what Anders was as a character was not due to lack of time, it was due to just well...bad writing. Does Hepler deserve all the hate? No, not really, but she ain't getting all that because of her own actions. She's getting all the hate that is also directed as Gaider and Laidlaw.

Honestly, I think Anders would have worked better if they had more time to actually write him as a nuanced character. He's basically an abomination, and *should* have a significant personality shift as the result of sharing soul space with a LN personification of vengeance. There's nothing wrong with the concept, and not even that many things wrong with the concept for the character arc, but the execution of both is rushed and ham-fisted. Almost, you know, as if they didn't have enough time to write a decent draft of the script.

[nitefyre410]

They are two things at play here:

1. First and foremost is that yes they do have a right to be upset about what she said but what gamers have to learn is how to express that anger and discontent in a constructive way. Instead of the how we usually do and make ourselves look like complete and utter fools. Now instead of the talking about some legit question that can be raised to Bioware about this employee's views and how that could possible affect the quality of the product they release. We are instead talking about gamers saying the woman is a cancer. So know Bioware goes in the bunker mentality and bad PR move is of over looked and nothing changes.

2. Bioware really needs to sit down with these people before they give interviews and talking to them about how to answer question in a interview. Language that is to be used and not used, how not put oneself in a bad position to where something that is seemingly honest is turned into something negative. Its the same thing with the EDI and at the artist comment in the artbook.

While in the past and with other genre's this would most likely have been blown over. Now - with a genre that is consider to be more narrative driven then game play its not a good look.

[LiquidLogic2020]

Who actually cares?