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BioWare Writer Describes Her Gaming Tastes; Angry Gamers Call Her a "Cancer"


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#126
Backslash93

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CrustyBot wrote...

The game industry teaches people that game developers are all geniuses, and that gaming keeps getting better year after year. There are no problems with this vision as long as people are satisfied with the games being released. But when a game comes out that's less than satisfactory, the cracks start to show. This is why people can so vehemently defend Bioware; they're constantly being told by the gaming media, advertising, and other fans that Bioware has great writing and their games are the best rpgs evar. When a game comes out that is definitely not a good RPG, a portion of the fanbase has this illusion shattered for them and they instantly become bitter trolls who can't stand change or don't understand Bioware's "VISION" in the eyes of the faithful.

Hepler is just the unlucky recipient of this pent up anger. Even those who have recently abandoned Bioware probably still love their earlier games (I can sympathize; I really liked BG1 and BG2 but everything they've done since then has paled in comparison). So they look for a target; a scapegoat they can blame for the decline. And then Hepler makes stupid comments about how she hates gameplay, and how anyone who doesn't love her work is either sexist or homophobic, like she's some kind of writing god and all who criticize her are heretics who should be shunned from society if not burned at the stake. I can understand the anger coming from these people.

The problem with all this anger is that Bioware won't understand where it's coming from and just dismiss it as mass trolling, as if thousands of people have nothing better to do than try to hurt their feelings. Good game developers listen to criticism; they recognize that anger has a purpose, and people are only angry because they care about the game in question. The worst reaction from fans is silence - it means they just don't care. But I digress. The devs at Bioware have surrounded themselves with a cult of faithful sycophants and any criticism is dismissed by dozens of loyal posters. Jokes about ding dong bannu aside, the worst part of that forum isn't the overzealous moderation, it's the echo chamber effect where any voice of dissent is shot down by other posters. It's demoralizing to post legitimate criticism only to be called a troll, or have all your carefully thought out points be called wrong for stupid reasons. Why even bother posting criticism when the reaction is universal? Then the disillusioned forum goer will either slip back into the fold, or flee to /v/, the Codex, or other sites where their opinion won't be so universally rejected. The Bioware forum goers probably think they're perfectly reasonable people, too; they are only sticking up for the best rpg developer evar. Bioware can do no wrong, so anyone who tries to criticize them is either mistaken or just a troll. If you think they've made a mistake, just look at all these posts by people who disagree with you!

So basically, the state of things at Bioware are the result of the game industry's masturbatory self-praise and rejection of any meaningful criticism, and Bioware won't learn anything from this because of how sheltered they've made themselves. As their games continue to decline in quality, their audience will grow smaller and their reputation with gamers will suffer. If Bioware wants to save themselves from being assimilated by EA, they need to hire some better writers, hire some community managers to assess criticism from fans, and generally work on restoring their reputation for good RPGs rather than the action/dating sims they're becoming known for. I doubt that'll happen, though.

Of course everyone on the KKKodex is going to find a way to blame the "Bioware Decline" on such jevenile behavior. No, it's Bioware's fault, not that of these children.

Modifié par Backslash93, 21 février 2012 - 12:15 .


#127
CostinRaz

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because if she writes stories for games, her responsibility is the story, and not the gameplay.


Though gameplay and story are intertwined, one cannot have the story be seperated from the gameplay or you're going to have a very disjoined experience (which does sell in some cases). When gameplay is introduced and invokes the feeling onto the player which the story is trying to portray, it creates a stronger experience and makes the game much more memorable.

When the writer wishes to skip gameplay and all the benefits that could bring her written word, it does cause some concern at the future route for these games where gameplay and story will be completely seperate beasts. I shouldn't want to sit down, place the game into the tray and say to myself "I can't wait to watch the cutscenes!".


One should mention that a lot of the hate she is getting could be from people who are REALLY pissed off about the game modes in ME3, just saying.

#128
Mclouvins

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Unrelated to gameplay?

Because if she writes stories for games, her responsibility is the story, and not the gameplay.


Demanding a script writer be proficient and enjoy gameplay is as sensible as insisting that the audio artists be good writers. There's no reason to.

It's silly.


Proficient and enjoy--no. But the problem is, in games the gameplay is not segregated from the story; they overlap, or at least hopefully they do. Skipping gameplay means that the subsequient experience will be unnaturally segregated.


They are connected but not that tightly for the purposes of writing as opposed to storytelling. Writing could be as simple as an insert of" boss fight here" between the buildup and the resolution. The skippable line probably took it too far but look at the story mode for ME3, the combat is basically skippable because it's next to impossible to die but that's what some poeple want.

#129
billy the squid

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Clearly some people have never heard of Adrian Smith's theory of the division of labour. If I'm not wrong, she is part of the writing team, dealing with characters and plot.

What the hell that has to do with her not enjoying the actiony elements I don't know, since when is that a prerequisite for writing plot lines? Whether the writing is up to scratch is a different kettle of fish, yet whether she enjoys those elements has no baring on the actual gameplay.

Modifié par billy the squid, 21 février 2012 - 12:13 .


#130
Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut

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LilyasAvalon wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

post on RPGCodex which I felt was relevant.

[snip]


Trufax.

But that said, of course Hepler is getting disporportionate (not to mention sexist) backlash for what was actually a failure on the part of EA to give the writers sufficient time to write a verison of the script that was final draft quality.

She also kinda gets a pass on my for writing poorly under poor deadline/editing conditions because she wrote the dwarf bits in DA:O, which were easily the best part of the game.

I honestly have to wonder if she did those on her own though or not... I mean, I look at the quality between those Origins (Which I did love) and Anders in DA2 and I go.... 'Are we sure this is the same writer?'


Look at Star Wars Episode IV and Star Wars Episode II. Or Aliens and Avatar. Some writers thrive in certain environments and not in others.

#131
STARSBarry

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wait wait wait, are people now trying to Phoenix Wright this woman out of the hole she dug her self by putting down contradictions?

ok let me put this another way, bioware story telling has recently gone to pot, not completely but we all feel dragon age II was to be fair.... in the story department a bit of a letdown (and the rest of the game as well LOL)

what shes said is she is writing for an industry for a product she doesn't like, this is fine since alot of people have jobs they hate, just when shes in a top end position like lets face it she is, and says she hates what shes working for how are the people who enjoy what she creates going to take it?

not well, its a massive flame fest and blown way out but its still made me twinge when I read it

point 2.... she wants gameplay to be skippable, that would make the video game into..... a movie, now mass effects combat has become faster, and more streamlined with every version (see where im going with this?) you spend less time playing the mechanics of a game, which have been simplified over previous installments as you are engaging in the story, via cutscenes or dialog choices.

basically she stated she wants that gameplay element of games completely skippable while this would vastly improve some "games" like dead or alive xstreme 2 meaning you could get strait to the pieces of string on your awfull polygon jiggle physics engine, the entire part of it being a game would be lost

other words fans are asking her to go write a book or a movie or something instead of trying to get gameplay mechanics dumbed down and streamlined.

or at least thats how I read them between the lines

#132
Xewaka

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This theme resurfaces once a year for three years now. It'll die on its own, then regrow when imbecilic dudebros need to bury the budding conscience over their wasted, pointless lifes under a roaring wave of dumb.
Such is the cicle of life.

Modifié par Xewaka, 21 février 2012 - 12:15 .


#133
CostinRaz

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other words fans are asking her to go write a book or a movie or something instead of trying to get gameplay mechanics dumbed down and streamlined.


If a few people were pissed at her comments about gameplay, people were enraged when she replied to the trolls.

#134
Il Divo

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Dean_the_Young wrote...


Not even Half-Life, the epitome of merging story into gameplay, put the story inside the fights. So I'll call bull on that.


Sad but true. One of the more difficult limitations of our genre.

#135
Dean_the_Young

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Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

Someone made a post on RPGCodex which I felt was relevant. FWIW, I don't support any of the personal attacks on Mrs. Hepler but the post does shed some light on why people were angry enough to post such things about her regardless of whether you agree with it or not.



I sincerely hope you didn't write that tripe.


the worst part of that forum isn't the overzealous moderation, it's the echo chamber effect where any voice of dissent is shot down by other posters. It's demoralizing to post legitimate criticism only to be called a troll, or have all your carefully thought out points be called wrong for stupid reasons. 


Just sayin'.

You're saying a fallacy.

The post isn't tripe because it criticizes Bioware. It's tripe because it makes a non-falsifiable position by delegitimizing any objection to it. It's the same mentality that conspiracy theorists get into when they claim that the reason they aren't believed is because other people are sheeple: to disagree automatically disqualifies you.

It's a fallacy, and pretty pathetic.

#136
Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut

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Backslash93 wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

Posted Image

Of course everyone on the KKKodex is going to blame the "Bioware Decline" on such jevenile behavior. No, it's Bioware's fault, not that of these these children.


Above: irony.

If you respond to thoughtful analysis by insulting someone else's form, you're not in a position to call things "jevenile [sic] behavior."

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 21 février 2012 - 12:16 .


#137
rapscallioness

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DoomHK wrote...

I doubt these idiots would have the guts to talk to anyone in such a manner if they met them in real life. How pathetic.


that's the Truth.

cuz they'd get knocked on their azz talking like that irl. Heck, most of them prolly can't even get their fat azzes off the couch and run a city block w/out keeling over.

but they're so macho. they're gonna harass a young mother.

And the article was heavily edited itself that got posted in that p.o.s. reddit.

Reddit needs a good Smite!. Like a grade A Nova style Smite!

#138
Guest_EternalAmbiguity_*

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Dean_the_Young wrote...
Only if the story is insert into the gameplay. 

Which, in the vast majority of gameplay and games, it isn't. You could cut out the vast majority of all gameplay (puzzles, fights, races, what have you) and have the exact same story, since the hyper-majority of the story is distinct from gameplay elements so as to not, you know, distract the player.

Not even Half-Life, the epitome of merging story into gameplay, put the story inside the fights. So I'll call bull on that.


More to the point, this is Bioware. Story comes in dialogue sections between gameplay, in conversation pieces. Ambient chatter is primarily used for characterization (companion interaction) and guiding the player (what they need to do to proceed).


Not in the middle of a firefight, of course not.

But even it's the slightest thing--Liara explaining things during playing LotSB, or party interaction in DA related to things with the PC--romance, non-romantic relationships, plot points--you have story and gameplay interplay.

#139
PaulSX

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Ringo12 wrote...

El_Chala_Legalizado wrote...

Travie wrote...

Did helper write anything for ME3? I don't dislike her or anything... but I hope not after DA:2.

Nop, she was working for SW:TOR


Well that doesn't help either...


I think TOR's writing is pretty neat, not really as bad as DA2.

#140
woods26

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Proficient and enjoy--no. But the problem is, in games the gameplay is not segregated from the story; they overlap, or at least hopefully they do. Skipping gameplay means that the subsequient experience will be unnaturally segregated.


That's why there's a team of writers and various gameplay/writing directors to manage everything. It's not a project driven by a single person. If you think everybody who works for a game company is a gamer, your only fooling yourself.

#141
Dean_the_Young

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AlexXIV wrote...

She basically said she doesn't like the gameplay aspect about video games and that she would rather skip them. Of course everyone who thinks that Bioware games have poor gameplay went 'AHA'! I mean that's what people are like and if you work in a sort of a public job (if you're doing interviews etc.it's sort of public) then you have watch your words. That's what's to learn. Not saying that she is wrong. Mind you if combat was skippable I'd at least give it a shot to see what it is like. But I really think gameplay and story should work together, not apart from each other which is often the case in Bioware games. And that's probably what people annoyed about it.


Anyone who goes 'AHA' at that is making up things anyway, so there's nothing she could do about it. She'd be criticized as a tool if she said she liked the game.

Gameplay and story are pretty much separated in any form of game that isn't heavily text-based, simply because the action genre doesn't actually blend well with exposition in the middle of the action. People are too distracted.


It's pretty much a meaningless platitude unless you identify what you think that actually means.

#142
AxholeRose

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TOR's class storylines and quests are easily that of an epic single player game. If it weren't for the dull gameplay I would be playing it.

#143
CaptainZaysh

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 Wow.  BioWare has the worst fans.

#144
Iakus

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 She also mentioned that she finds it difficult to get immersed in a game that is not complemented by a good story: "While I enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming, if a game doesn't have a good story, it's very hard for me to get interested in playing it."


A sentiment I share.

#145
Gorosaur

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 Um...why didn't people throw a fit when LA Noire offered people the ability to skip action/combat sequences in order to stick to the storytelling?

Seems silly to criticize people for trying to offer different ways for people to enjoy the same product. 

#146
Farbautisonn

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CaptainZaysh wrote...

 Wow.  BioWare has the worst fans.


-You never played EQ on a PvP server did you? :devil:

#147
Sgt Stryker

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suntzuxi wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

El_Chala_Legalizado wrote...

Travie wrote...

Did helper write anything for ME3? I don't dislike her or anything... but I hope not after DA:2.

Nop, she was working for SW:TOR


Well that doesn't help either...


I think TOR's writing is pretty neat, not really as bad as DA2.

At the risk of going off-topic...

So far I like what I see in TOR's writing, other than occasional recycled lines used in random sidequests (acceptable for a game of this scale). Then again, I've only played the Trooper and haven't finished the class quest for that.

#148
rapscallioness

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And! a youtube was created w/ instructions on how to send "hate mail" to David Gaider.

Wtf is going on here.

Sometimes this smells like a bit of corporate sabotage. Rile up the friggin' sheep. It's so easy.

#149
CostinRaz

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I don't think that her not liking to play games was the biggest issue.

Oh no, the biggest issue was when she decided to say people who dislike her writing are homophobic and sexist. I had no role in the tweets, or hate emails or phone calls, hell I only found about this yesterday but that comment pissed the hell out of me.

Modifié par CostinRaz, 21 février 2012 - 12:21 .


#150
rapscallioness

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CaptainZaysh wrote...

 Wow.  BioWare has the worst fans.


Are these really BW fans?  Or just gamers in general?