73 réponses à ce sujet

[Tazzmission]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

Irony: Working in a gaming industry and not to like gaming!

She got what she deserved. - A poor jobless gamer

ok tough guy you say she got what she deserved right? how much you want to bet if any of the devs said half the crap people say on the bsn alone to there fans youd cry like a girl? i think you wouldnt like it to much and reply with a cocky reply.


dont pretend to be some tough guy because it dosent make you look cool at all

[Lucy Glitter]

 What she said was tactless, I think, even though I somewhat agree with her (especially on the story aspect) I can't say I didn't expect people to get upset.

To this extent? Not at all. I also must bring up that she is a gamer dev woman, and all those geeky woman-hating men out there jumped on that aspect, which I despise. 

edit: What Aaryn did was silly, though, imho. It was very unprofessional and he is misrepresenting his company and lowering himself to their level. I understand Ms. Hepler is a friend (and she seems like a great person. Plus, she wrote the whole Deep Roads mission in DA:O which is one of the best instances of writing i've ever seen) but I would comfort her and say those things in the privacy of my office/phone/whatever. Not online where BioWare fans will see it and think differently of him. 

Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 21 février 2012 - 05:50 .

[Tazzmission]

GodWood wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...
ok seriously im embarressed to call myself a mass effect fan now.

Why?

The woman who was called a cancer is a Dragon Age writer.

i dont give a crap what game she wrote. this is the stuff i have been saying for a long time now.


fans are becoming more disgusting by the minute.


its one thing to not like something but seriously even you have to admit dude people can be jerks. 

and the next thing im going to say isnt a attack but just because those people failed at breaking into the gaming industry or have a lack of life dosent give them the right to go out and spew the most disgusting statements.


and its comments like those that really make me cry for the gaming industry and buisness industry people like those who say those things will be the death of it.

Modifié par Tazzmission, 21 février 2012 - 05:51 .

[Lucy Glitter]

Tazzmission wrote...

its one thing to not like something but seriously even you have to admit dude people can be pricks

Especially on the internet where you are anonymous, and especially in cases of angry, lonely gamer geeks who have women problems. 

[Doctalen]

Fans are clingy complaining dip****s who will never ever be grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices the happier you'll be. -Yahtzee

[Tazzmission]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

its one thing to not like something but seriously even you have to admit dude people can be pricks

Especially on the internet where you are anonymous, and especially in cases of angry, lonely gamer geeks who have women problems. 

heck i have my concerns for me3 myself but i dont go out and attack the devs left and right.

i mean wow maybe im just taking it harder because the cancer thing hits to close to home  and i dont find it funny to use ** cancer** as a way to insult someone

[Lucy Glitter]

^ I do too, but I don't say that ONE writer is the cause of BioWare's recent games being less... BioWarian. 

The cancer comment did not have any thought put into it apart from hate. Don't let that scheisse get to you, it doesn't have any meaning behind it.

Brockololly wrote...

The personal attacks were trollish and out of line, no doubt. Inexcusable, even if you don't care for her writing.

Conversely, resorting to profanity and responding to trollish behavior with more trollish 4th grade insults is just as bad.

What gets me is why this stuff turned up now? Its been going on with /v/ since before DA2 came out. Surely this wasn't a surprise to anyone at BioWare?

Deviija wrote...


It might not be professional, but I do not feel bad about it. It's deserved. Fuel on the fire? There is already a mob mentality that has been aimed at Hepler for MONTHS, it's about time she got support. 'Cuz it hasn't gone away. Sometimes, when against severe harrassment and bulling, a big eff you is valid.

 

Definitely agree with you two. Though I still think the profanity from Aaryn was not the best move to make. 

I mean, it's Reddit and /v/ who are the main instigators. It's no surprise they are singling out the female in the team. 

When really this is entirely due to EA putting pressure on BW to make their games more mainstream. 

Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 21 février 2012 - 05:57 .

[tetrisblock4x1]

They weren't insulting her gender, they're insulting her work until she had to escalate the drama by hiding from the critics behind a vagina. Still, I wish that people didn't take the bate. They could have chosen to stay objective and focus on her writing ability, but I guess you could say that Hepler out smarted the haters because her vagina bait has discredited all legitimate criticisms. I ****ing hate what they said the Hepler, and for everyones information there have been female writers that were respected by gamers long before Hepler. Legacy of Kain anyone? Uncharted? Assassins Creed? Myst? Deus Ex? Gray Matter? All had female main writers, and these games are praised and considered to be some of the best examples of game writing. They were accepted because they had talent, so they've never had a cause to hide behind vaginas regardless of how they see females in gaming. .

Also, I like this post that someone else made regarding Bioware and it's community.

[quote]The game industry teaches people that game developers are all geniuses, and that gaming keeps getting better year after year. There are no problems with this vision as long as people are satisfied with the games being released. But when a game comes out that's less than satisfactory, the cracks start to show. This is why people can so vehemently defend Bioware; they're constantly being told by the gaming media, advertising, and other fans that Bioware has great writing and their games are the best rpgs evar. When a game comes out that is definitely not a good RPG, a portion of the fanbase has this illusion shattered for them and they instantly become bitter trolls who can't stand change or don't understand Bioware's "VISION" in the eyes of the faithful.

Hepler is just the unlucky recipient of this pent up anger. Even those who have recently abandoned Bioware probably still love their earlier games (I can sympathize; I really liked BG1 and BG2 but everything they've done since then has paled in comparison). So they look for a target; a scapegoat they can blame for the decline. And then Hepler makes stupid comments about how she hates gameplay, and how anyone who doesn't love her work is either sexist or homophobic, like she's some kind of writing god and all who criticize her are heretics who should be shunned from society if not burned at the stake. I can understand the anger coming from these people.

The problem with all this anger is that Bioware won't understand where it's coming from and just dismiss it as mass trolling, as if thousands of people have nothing better to do than try to hurt their feelings. Good game developers listen to criticism; they recognize that anger has a purpose, and people are only angry because they care about the game in question. The worst reaction from fans is silence - it means they just don't care. But I digress. The devs at Bioware have surrounded themselves with a cult of faithful sycophants and any criticism is dismissed by dozens of loyal posters. Jokes about ding dong bannu aside, the worst part of that forum isn't the overzealous moderation, it's the echo chamber effect where any voice of dissent is shot down by other posters. It's demoralizing to post legitimate criticism only to be called a troll, or have all your carefully thought out points be called wrong for stupid reasons. Why even bother posting criticism when the reaction is universal? Then the disillusioned forum goer will either slip back into the fold, or flee to /v/, the Codex, or other sites where their opinion won't be so universally rejected. The Bioware forum goers probably think they're perfectly reasonable people, too; they are only sticking up for the best rpg developer evar. Bioware can do no wrong, so anyone who tries to criticize them is either mistaken or just a troll. If you think they've made a mistake, just look at all these posts by people who disagree with you!

So basically, the state of things at Bioware are the result of the game industry's masturbatory self-praise and rejection of any meaningful criticism, and Bioware won't learn anything from this because of how sheltered they've made themselves. As their games continue to decline in quality, their audience will grow smaller and their reputation with gamers will suffer. If Bioware wants to save themselves from being assimilated by EA, they need to hire some better writers, hire some community managers to assess criticism from fans, and generally work on restoring their reputation for good RPGs rather than the action/dating sims they're becoming known for. I doubt that'll happen, though.[/url]

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 21 février 2012 - 06:09 .

[Lucy Glitter]

Look, I won't say I agree or disagree with that post. I personally have found myself feeling depressed about the newer games from BW... especially how rushed and stilted they have been, but I blame that entirely on the merge with EA. Controversial thing to say, and I do realise that's ban-worthy to some... but I think it's true and it's very, very sad that I resort to thinking that. I understand RPG fans feelings entirely, but for anyone to blame Hepler!? WTFFFFFFFFFFFF. It's juvenile.

I just read that she gets phone harassment? WHAT THE FUDGE?!

[Morroian]

The game industry teaches people that game developers are all geniuses, and that gaming keeps getting better year after year. There are no problems with this vision as long as people are satisfied with the games being released. But when a game comes out that's less than satisfactory, the cracks start to show. This is why people can so vehemently defend Bioware; they're constantly being told by the gaming media, advertising, and other fans that Bioware has great writing and their games are the best rpgs evar. When a game comes out that is definitely not a good RPG, a portion of the fanbase has this illusion shattered for them and they instantly become bitter trolls who can't stand change or don't understand Bioware's "VISION" in the eyes of the faithful.

Meh, Bioware's forum is no different from many other forums dedicated to specific companies and better than many. It is at least still tolerant of different views so long as they aren't expressed in a trollish manner, compare this to say the 38 Studios which got remarkably intolerant of criticism when people didn't like KOA.

[Homebound]

Im going to take a stand and say this juvenile, behind the bleachers crap is unacceptable.

[Dave of Canada]

Morroian wrote...

Meh, Bioware's forum is no different from many other forums dedicated to specific companies and better than many. It is at least still tolerant of different views so long as they aren't expressed in a trollish manner, compare this to say the 38 Studios which got remarkably intolerant of criticism when people didn't like KOA.

I'd disagree, I've been insulted for months and my Youtube account has been getting harassed for weeks now.

[tetrisblock4x1]

Morroian wrote...

The game industry teaches people that game developers are all geniuses, and that gaming keeps getting better year after year. There are no problems with this vision as long as people are satisfied with the games being released. But when a game comes out that's less than satisfactory, the cracks start to show. This is why people can so vehemently defend Bioware; they're constantly being told by the gaming media, advertising, and other fans that Bioware has great writing and their games are the best rpgs evar. When a game comes out that is definitely not a good RPG, a portion of the fanbase has this illusion shattered for them and they instantly become bitter trolls who can't stand change or don't understand Bioware's "VISION" in the eyes of the faithful.

Meh, Bioware's forum is no different from many other forums dedicated to specific companies and better than many. It is at least still tolerant of different views so long as they aren't expressed in a trollish manner, compare this to say the 38 Studios which got remarkably intolerant of criticism when people didn't like KOA.

Not true. I see valid complaints shot down all the time, and I've been on the recieving end myself more than once. As saddened as I am by the recent demo and marketing, I feel a sense of satisfaction in seeing the complainers be a substansial majority for once and to see the defenders rebuttals been dismissed so often... it feels like justice

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 21 février 2012 - 06:42 .

[Lucy Glitter]

Morroian wrote...
It is at least still tolerant of different views so long as they aren't expressed in a trollish manne.

...

Really? You actually think that? Try going on the ME3 board with an opinion that isn't the mainstream, and then you might think differently.

[Zanallen]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

Morroian wrote...
It is at least still tolerant of different views so long as they aren't expressed in a trollish manne.

...

Really? You actually think that? Try going on the ME3 board with an opinion that isn't the mainstream, and then you might think differently.

Judging by the sheer amount of complaints on the ME3 board, it is difficult to tell what the mainstream opinion is. Going by Phaedon's poll, most people are happy with the demo, but you certainly wouldn't get that impression by looking at the threads on the first page.

[KotorEffect3]

Zanallen wrote...

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

Morroian wrote...
It is at least still tolerant of different views so long as they aren't expressed in a trollish manne.

...

Really? You actually think that? Try going on the ME3 board with an opinion that isn't the mainstream, and then you might think differently.

Judging by the sheer amount of complaints on the ME3 board, it is difficult to tell what the mainstream opinion is. Going by Phaedon's poll, most people are happy with the demo, but you certainly wouldn't get that impression by looking at the threads on the first page.

The negative minority tends to be louder.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Am I bad person for finding some of the comments written about her completely hilarious?

[darthnick427]

okay seriously wtf those people are ridiculous. Though I don't support the skip combat option she doesn't deserve that kind of abuse. Shame on those haters

[tetrisblock4x1]

No reason to be offended by mere words. Commentary towards work standards and attitude however are something different, it's just too damn bad that most of the people on twitter refused to comment on it and decided to troll instead.

But that's just me. I typically find that it's easy to be emotionally detached when people talk to me on the internet. Comes with experience.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 21 février 2012 - 07:51 .

[eroeru]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

Irony: Working in a gaming industry and not to like gaming!

She got what she deserved. - A poor jobless gamer

You're the cancer of BSN.

[Addai]

I seriously doubt many /v/ people hang around BSN. Except maybe to troll.

Their tweet bombing was disgusting and there's no justification for it. Phone harassment is way over the line and I'd be looking for law enforcement to knock on the door pulling that crap.

However it certainly doesn't help that Ms. Hepler does seem to have the "girl gamer" attitude, like she speaks for some disenfranchised group or something. I found that irritating when I first read that old interview of hers, that she presumed to speak for me. I'm sure it's meant well, but people can tell when they're being talked down to. Like "let me educate you about the mysteries of women."  It's really not that deep. If she doesn't like combat, that's her thing, not a female gamer thing. Her comments in response to the redditors are along the same vein, like she's in some special category being a female developer- though in fact some of the hail of abuse was derogatory of her gender, using the c word for instance.

No matter what, it's hardly fair to blame her for the trajectory of an entire company or franchise. That's just idiotic.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 février 2012 - 08:15 .

[tetrisblock4x1]

It's fair to blame that hack for ignoring the issues peoplehad with her writing, attitude to the job and negativity to writers like Tolkein (!!!) calling them boring old men with nothing of value or whatever. Instead she decided to deflect it with her ****. Biowares management is just as bad for letting untrained employees deal with the public over twitter

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 21 février 2012 - 08:26 .

[Il Divo]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

 for everyones information there have been female writers that were respected by gamers long before Hepler. Legacy of Kain anyone? Uncharted?

Amy Hennig rules all.

[Stanley Woo]

Complaint threads complaining about complaints aren't productive. LEad by example, and be excellent to each other. Thank you.

End of line.