203 réponses à ce sujet

[GordonNoob2010]

For starters, Indoctrination only occurs against organics. Geth were simply reprogrammed. One takes time and proximity while the other is transmitted instantly across server hubs. So yes, Sweawm used the wrong word, but the point still stands. Super Effective.

Secondly, there is no THEY when you refer to Quarians. You have aging warships and suitwetting cowards alike.

Third, the Geth didn't stop. They have already finished the job.
1) Defeat the Quarian army. Check.
2) Murder billions of Quarian civilians AFTER the Quarians on Ronnoch were defeated. Check.
3) Systematically exterminate all Quarians on EVERY Quarian colony world AFTER the billions of Quarians on Ronnoch were exterminated. Check.

Mission Accomplished, Mr Geth. Let's bring our boys home!

Yes, they could have gone the extra step of sterilizing every planet of all organic micro-organisms that share similar DNA to Quarians but that would have been illogical.

If you shoot a man in the heart, he will take 30 seconds to actually die.
If instead you confine that same man onto a ship with no food, water, money, friends, place to go, symbiotic ecosystem with neccesary flaura and fauna, he will take a while to die. But he will still most certainly die eventually.

But guess what? Geth are immortal. 30 seconds and 300 years makes no difference. Both deaths are mathematical probabilistic near-certainties.

So yes, the Geth stopped. Because they succeeded in wiping out the Quarians. The Migrant fleet is dead already, just taking their sweet time in doing so.

"Heck maybe" Conjecture.

"I have no problems letting the Quarians live". That statement implies several very disturbing things.
1) Your shepard is judge, jury, and executioner and have already condemned the Quarians to death. He MIGHT show mercy IF...
2) The Quarians are already dying aboard their overstrained ships that are falling apart after 300 years as stated by Tali. They are dying and will become extinct SOON if nothing is done. Your shepard, henceforth known as evilshep, would actually need to commit a considerable effort on Quarian behalf to even allow for the possibility of continued Quarian survival.
3) There is no "THEY". Evilshep has no problems letting "THEM" live if they leave the Geth alone. So it is okay to kill the cowardly suitwetting peace-loving Quarian IF the hot doll-dissecting scientist Quarian attacks in secret?

[Ryzaki]

No.

Recall Tali's and Legion's LMs. The Reapers had to use a specific virius at a specific time and the only reason the Geth were vulnerable was because they didn't expect the Heretics to put in spy programs. Trying to indoctrinate them one at a time is pointless because they will just point out the flaws to each other.

Indoctrination is pretty difficult to use against the geth.

As for the slaughter I already said they weren't in the right about it. They defended themselves and since they didn't know any better they slaughtered en masse. They have been shown to learn from that mistake.

As for the quarian bit. Yes such a terrible person my Shepard is for defending one species from another. How horrendous that he won't just let the Quarians kill the geth because they want their homeplanet back and they're not willing to try to reach a compromise about it. How truly horrendous.

Really I know better than to get into this debate. The innocent lily white quarians are being oppressed by the evil geth. There's no way that neither party is completely innocent. Nope.

As for wiping out the Quarians. Of course. The geth stopped the Quarians from inhabiting another planet right. <_< Totally. Everything bad that happened to the poor widdle Quarians is the geth faults. Clearly. I mean obviously the geth kept stalking the Quarians and stopped them from inhabiting habital planets that weren't Rannoch. OBVIOUSLY. Oh wait...no they didn't!

This'll go nowhere. Especially not if you're going to insist that the state of the Migrant Fleet is the geth's fault. The slaughter of the morning war? Yeah that was partly the geth. The current state of the Migrant Fleet? No. At some point the Quarians should've inhabited another world even if it wasn't an ideal world for them. Instead they wander about on rinky dink ships longing after a planet they lost several generations ago.

With this I'm done. Apparently because he doesn't want to support the poor widdle Quarian's attack of the Geth he's evil.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 février 2012 - 09:03 .

[LystAP]

Ryzaki wrote...

No.

Recall Tali's and Legion's LMs. The Reapers had to use a specific virius at a specific time and the only reason the Geth were vulnerable was because they didn't expect the Heretics to put in spy programs. Trying to indoctrinate them one at a time is pointless because they will just point out the flaws to each other.

Indoctrination is pretty difficult to use against the geth.

Indoctrination is basically organic rewriting, the Reapers themselves are bio-mechanical constructs; which if is any indicator that they can interface with both synthetic and organic beings. The Reapers are highly advanced bio-techno singularities. The Geth are still highly vulnerable to Reaper rewrite because they are basically a hive mind, like the Rachni. All you need to do is corrupt one unit, and it will spread to all other units which interface with it.

In fact, the Rachni are a great example if you let the Queen live and paid attention to her herald's description of what happened during the Rachni Wars in ME2. They are basically an organic version of what happened and can happen to the Geth. The only reason it hasn't happened to anyone else is that no other intelligent species in Council Space is a hive mind. 

Modifié par LystAP, 24 février 2012 - 09:24 .

[Bon3zz1001]

 *spoilers* 


If you've read the game script you would see that you can resolve the matter peacefully without having to pick a side and losing Tali / Legion. 

[Ryzaki]

LystAP wrote...
Indoctrination is basically organic rewriting, the Reapers themselves are bio-mechanical constructs; which if is any indicator that they can interface with both synthetic and organic beings. The Reapers are highly advanced bio-techno singularities. The Geth are still highly vulnerable to Reaper rewrite because they are basically a hive mind, like the Rachni. All you need to do is corrupt one unit, and it will spread to all other units which interface with it.

In fact, the Rachni are a great example if you let the Queen live and paid attention to her herald's description of what happened during the Rachni Wars in ME2. They are basically an organic version of what happened and can happen to the Geth. The only reason it hasn't happened to anyone else is that no other intelligent species in Council Space is a hive mind. 

I'm aware of that. And no it won't Tali's LM points out the flaws of the corrupting one unit spreading to all others thing. The Heretic Virius worked by completely corrupting the main geth hub and modifying their core behaviors (works the same way against the heretics). It also doesn't work on all of them immediately. The geth had to reconnect with the main hub to be infected (thus Legion's bit about most of them being rewritten inside a day but for others it would take longer). Something that the heretics only managed to do (I'm not talking about designing the virus but being able to get into the true geth's databases and know the best time to infect them) because they were originally part of the geth and knew more about their secruity and weaknesses than anyone else (and vice versa with Legion and Shepard). (that and the true geth wrongly assumed they were no threat to them). As long as the main Geth database isn't infected (and it should be highly guarded especially against Reaper slaves) the geth are not that vulnerable to indoctrination and can point out to the indoctrinated model that it's indoctrinated (or changed...or whatever. Hacked would probably be the best term). Thanks to the way they interface with each other they also would be able to tell exactly which models had changed before it becomes obvious from them turning into husk like beings where's an organic would have to play more of a guessing game.

It only becomes a risk if the Reapers completely take over the Geth's mainframe. In which case any species in their situation would be pretty much boned. (It's pretty much like taking over their homeplanet I'd assume). In which case once they're Reaper slaves my Shep would take them out not only to protect organics but because well no species should have to be forced to serve the Reapers. The Rachni Queen was straight up taken, chained up against her will and forced to birth Reaper troops. ...Heck I don't even think she's indoctrinated. Her kids are though.

There isn't a main geth that controlls all the others though like there is a Rachni Queen. if there wasn't the heretic/true geth split never would've happened because the main geth would've just told the heretics they were wrong and that would've been that.

But I could be confused about how the geth operate. It's been a few days since I played Legion's LM.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 février 2012 - 09:49 .

[Mhorhe83]

Ryzaki wrote...
No.

Recall Tali's and Legion's LMs. The Reapers had to use a specific virius at a specific time and the only reason the Geth were vulnerable was because they didn't expect the Heretics to put in spy programs.

Actually.. no?  The Heretics are just True Geth that, to paraphrase Legion, "wanted the Old Machines to give them the future." Legion specifically states that they parted ways with no hostility to one another. That's why he's surprised that the Heretics were listening in on the True Geth.

You want to go ahead and massacre all the organic races of the galaxy? Go right ahead brothers.

So no, the Heretics' actions are not the result of indoctrination, viral attack or whatever. They're simply what logic dictated 5 % of the Geth. Go over the dialogues if you want, I did so in a spare half hour I had

Ryzaki wrote...
As for wiping out the Quarians. Of course. The geth stopped the Quarians from inhabiting another planet right. <_< Totally. Everything bad that happened to the poor widdle Quarians is the geth faults. Clearly. I mean obviously the geth kept stalking the Quarians and stopped them from inhabiting habital planets that weren't Rannoch. OBVIOUSLY. Oh wait...no they didn't!
This'll go nowhere. Especially not if you're going to insist that the state of the Migrant Fleet is the geth's fault. The slaughter of the morning war? Yeah that was partly the geth. The current state of the Migrant Fleet? No. At some point the Quarians should've inhabited another world even if it wasn't an ideal world for them. Instead they wander about on rinky dink ships longing after a planet they lost several generations ago.

I've yet to see an explanation as to why the merciful Geth, who absolutely did not want to exterminate the Quarian race, killed every last one Quarian they could get their mechanical claws on.

Don't you understand? The Quarians are walking death row. It's not a simple matter of them refusing to settle on another world. Tali specifically states that trying to accomodate to another world would take 500 years. FIVE HUNDRED YEARS. What could be the fertility rate of the Quarians in the conditions they live in - or even in the even more hostile conditions they would live in on a new world?

Ryzaki wrote...
As for the slaughter I already said they
weren't in the right about it. They defended themselves and since they
didn't know any better they slaughtered en masse. They have been shown
to learn from that mistake.

Where?

Where have the Geth shown that they have learned from that mistake?

Because Legion doesn't randomly attack everything in its path? That's not his role. Legion is on a fact finding mission. What the Geth plans to do with those facts, though, is unknown.

Like someone said somewhere above, a lot of the stuff Legion says can easily hold a double meaning.

[Ryzaki]

...right. Like I said no point. If you're going to throw something as silly as "You want to massacre all organic races in the galaxy." into the ring it's clear we're not even on remotely the same page so *shrugs* well at least we have the freedom to play however we want to. You can support the Quarians and I can support the Geth. Yay choices.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 février 2012 - 09:41 .

[Mhorhe83]

Ryzaki wrote...

...right. Like I said no point. If you're going to throw something as silly as "You want to massacre all organic races in the galaxy." into the ring it's clear we're not even on remotely the same page

I was only paraphrasing Legion. His words were something on the lines of  "they will exterminate your race because their gods tell them to". Look up the dialogue on youtube if you wish, it's when Shep is debating what to do about the Heretics.

You see, the "True Geth" basically just shrugged when the "Heretics" chose to follow Sovereign into the reaping of organic life in the galaxy.

They had no qualms with it, nor did they present any kind of warning to any of the races of the galaxy - most of which had not had hostile dealings with the Geth.

And it was also my point. Like I said, the Geth are dangerous because they're unique and thus unpredictable.

Ryzaki wrote...
so *shrugs* well at least we have the freedom to play however we want to. You can support the Quarians and I can support the Geth. Yay choices.

Oh but of course that's why Mass Effect is such a great game and universe. Like I said previously, I'm notr trying to actively convince you of anything, I'm simply enjoying a (calm and reasonable) discussion and presenting another, objective, point of view

Modifié par Mhorhe83, 24 février 2012 - 09:51 .

[Ryzaki]

I hate to burst your "everyone cares about each other" bubble but plenty of countries/groups of people have shrugged and done nothing when their allies have flat out told them they planned to enslave/slaughter a group of people (or were in the midst of doing it). "It's not my problem." is the train of thought. I can't act like the geth are monsters for doing something that humanity itself does constantly. I don't subscribe to the train of thought that you're responsible for making sure someone else isn't hurt by something not of your doing.

As long as they aren't participating in it I find no fault in them. And once they realized they were going to be screwed over by the Reapers too they had enough sense to try to offer a trade of services.

Fair enough.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 février 2012 - 09:55 .

[izmirtheastarach]

The Geth have also never experienced a difference of opinion like this before. It doesn't seem odd to me that they don't really know how to handle it. Legion is horribly confused when he realizes how far apart the True Geth & the Heretics have become. They are a very young race. synthetic or otherwise.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 24 février 2012 - 09:55 .

[Mhorhe83]

Ryzaki wrote...

I hate to burst your "everyone cares about
each other" bubble but plenty of countries/groups of people have
shrugged and done nothing when their allies have flat out told them they
planned to enslave/slaughter a group of people (or were in the midst of
doing it). "It's not my problem." is the train of thought. I can't act
like the geth are monsters for doing something that humanity itself does
constantly. I don't subscribe to the train of thought that you're
responsible for making sure someone else isn't hurt by something not of
your doing.

As long as they aren't participating in it I find no
fault in them. And once they realized they were going to be screwed
over by the Reapers too they had enough sense to try to offer a trade of
services.

Fair enough.

I assure you, I live in no bubble. History, especially military history, is somewhat of a hobby of mine.

I wasn't trying to portray the Geth as monsters as such. But you see, there's a bit of a
difference of scale between what you said and what the Geth were doing.
Sovereign was planning on killing off the entire galactic
civilization! Which one of the other races you think would have done nothing, absolutely nothing about it? Be honest [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Like I kept saying, it's the uniqueness I'm talking about.

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The Geth have also never experienced a difference of opinion like this before. It doesn't seem odd to me that they don't really know how to handle it. Legion is horribly confused when he realizes how far apart the True Geth & the Heretics have become. They are a very young race. synthetic or otherwise.

Yeah, he's almost emotional about it.

For me, the Geth are probably the most interesting race in the ME universe. Most others fall into some broad stereotype (Krogan = Orks, for instance) but with enough wiggle room to keep them interesting. The Geth, however, have the most wiggle room from their stereotype (Borg, Necrons, etc).

The fact I can't tell where they will be going, or indeed what they're doing, is just great. I hope the writers do a good job on them in ME 3 as well.

Modifié par Mhorhe83, 24 février 2012 - 10:05 .

[Ryzaki]

You mean like how multiple races do the not my problem spiel in ME3 when the Reapers are reaping Earth or when the Collectors were abducting hundreds of thousands of colonists? It's not something exclusive to the geth! And yes I do think quite a few races would've done nothing other than ready their own defenses if they thought the Reapers would attack or hide and hope the Reapers would ignore them and just kill X. People can be selfish and stupid that way.

The Alliance knew about the Reapers for quite a while...they warned no one. Cerberus? Nope kept it to themselves. (Cerberus at least has the "no one will believe us." excuse).

If you know military history you should know that yes some people will put their hands over their ears and try to ignore it until the invading army is right on their doorstep. Moreso if they have reason to believe that army will leave them alone if they don't get in the way.

Plus the geth thought they had nothing to fear from the Reapers. Just like those fools on the Citadel. Both will have a rude awakening.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 février 2012 - 10:14 .

[izmirtheastarach]

That's the role of my Shepard. To save the galaxy despite itself.

[papapudding]

Some people don't seem to fill the gap between a Virtual Intelligence and an Artificial Intelligence.

[Ryzaki]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

That's the role of my Shepard. To save the galaxy despite itself.

Seriously there are times my Shepard just wants to throw his hands up, find a nice isolated planet and call it a day. But then he thinks about poor stupid Conrad and he sighs and puts his armor on and goes to save the galaxy. He doesn't want to let that fool down.

[Mhorhe83]

Ryzaki wrote...
You mean like how multiple races do the not my problem spiel in ME3 when the Reapers are reaping Earth or when the Collectors were abducting hundreds of thousands of colonists? It's not something exclusive to the geth! And yes I do think quite a few races would've done nothing other than ready their own defenses if they thought the Reapers would attack or hide and hope the Reapers would ignore them and just kill X. People can be selfish and stupid that way.
The Alliance knew about the Reapers for quite a while...they warned no one. Cerberus? Nope kept it to themselves. (Cerberus at least has the "no one will believe us." excuse).

Like I said, I haven't read the leaked materials yet, don't intend to. But I fully and completely expect that to happen, at least on occasion.

The Alliance doesn't really believe in the Reapers. Cerberus does - actually, TIM does since TIM = Cerberus. But the comics heavily hinted that he might have been partially indoctrinated all the way - which between you and me, makes jack sense considering Cerberus' actions in ME 2, but whatever - and now we've got this whole "they're indoctrinated. They're capable of anything." thingie.

Ryzaki wrote...
If you know military history you should know that yes some people will put their hands over their ears and try to ignore it until the invading army is right on their doorstep. Moreso if they have reason to believe that army will leave them alone if they don't get in the way.

Plus the geth thought they had nothing to fear from the Reapers. Just like those fools on the Citadel. Both will have a rude awakening.

I don't know, maybe you're right on this. Yes, people do tend to cover their ears when the truth sounds too nasty or unpallatable. Maybe the extreme scale of it makes no difference.

[Ryzaki]

Mhorhe83 wrote...
Like I said, I haven't read the leaked materials yet, don't intend to. But I fully and completely expect that to happen, at least on occasion.

The Alliance doesn't really believe in the Reapers. Cerberus does - actually, TIM does since TIM = Cerberus. But the comics heavily hinted that he might have been partially indoctrinated all the way - which between you and me, makes jack sense considering Cerberus' actions in ME 2, but whatever - and now we've got this whole "they're indoctrinated. They're capable of anything." thingie.

I'm not sure what's worse. Them not caring or them being too stupid to put the Citadel attack previously in perspective. >_> Not my problem. If only the alliance had said that when your asses were hanging bare in the wind.

Actually they do. The ME3 demo pretty much spells that out. (And Kasumi's greybox had a picture of Sovereign I believe) not to mention Arrival. They had Kenson with a Reaper artificat...and they tell no one.

Cerberus troops are indoctrinated sure but Cerberus had the Derelict Reaper before ME2 even ended.

I don't know, maybe you're right on this. Yes, people do tend to cover their ears when the truth sounds too nasty or unpallatable. Maybe the extreme scale of it makes no difference.

Sadly I'm thinking the extreme scale would just make them more fearful and willing to ignore it until its too late (or close to it).

I'm not saying it wasn't a bit of a douche move. But well...it's not strange. It's apathetic rather than malicious.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 février 2012 - 10:43 .

[Mhorhe83]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sadly I'm thinking the extreme scale would just make them more fearful and willing to ignore it until its too late (or close to it).

I'm not saying it wasn't a bit of a douche move. But well...it's not strange. It's apathetic rather than malicious.

Probably true.. I wasn't going for malicious - they're not directly capable of it anyway. It was a.. strange decision to make, considering they function on logic. If you take the logical ramifications of them not warning anyone, it does not a pretty sight make.

[MrAnthonyDraft]

Bah, I guess it's far unrealistic to lay down the hate to each other and fight for the greater good, even if the peace is temporary. I like the freedom of choice, but here I'm hoping that you'll be able to choose both, not one.

If it comes to choosing either Geth or Quarians, I'd choose Geth, because they are interesting new species that

[Sweawm]

Really, its all the Council's fault. They didn't act while the Geth were cutting a swath of extermination across the Veil (It's mentioned on Ilium that the Geth also exterminated any non-Quarians present as well. It's possible the Geth wiped out a large amount of Council civilians as well) and then they just stuck their heads in the dirt and pretended nothing happened. As you can see at the end of ME1, that was a fabulous strategy that really worked out well for them...

Some people questioned "Why can't the Quarians get a new planet?". It's the Council's fault. The Quarians actually did try to settle another planet (Which name I can't recall) but then the Council booted them off so the Elcor (Who didn't need or really want the world to begin with) could have ANOTHER colony. Seriously. It's all the Council's fault is a recurring theme.

[Belv]

I'm pretty sure there will be an option to get peace for both factions and will probably be a part of the main story considering in this installment you go to the Quarian home planet.

[izmirtheastarach]

Belv wrote...

I'm pretty sure there will be an option to get peace for both factions and will probably be a part of the main story considering in this installment you go to the Quarian home planet.

I'm pretty sure that I confirm this to be the case on every page of this thread. Peace is possible, folks.

[Mhorhe83]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Belv wrote...
I'm pretty sure there will be an option to get peace for both factions and will probably be a part of the main story considering in this installment you go to the Quarian home planet.

I'm pretty sure that I confirm this to be the case on every page of this thread. Peace is possible, folks.

I'm pretty sure no one said it isn't We were arguing over, I don't know, the principle? On who's more to blame? Something like that.

[DeinonSlayer]

 In my "canon" playthrough, I implored the Admiralty Board not to go to war, but I encouraged Xen to continue her research. Offer one hand, arm the other. Call me paranoid, but there is plenty of reason not to trust the Geth.

Three hundred years ago, the Geth attained sentience. In a panic, the Quarian government ordered that they be shut down. We don't really know how far the Quarian military actually got in carrying out this order. For all we know, the Geth retaliated immediately after the order was finalized. What we do know for a fact is that the Quarian population, pre-war, numbered in the billions. Now, there are only seventeen million - less than one percent survived. By Legion's own admission, the Geth conducted mass-casualty attacks with chemical weapons; so enthusiastically, in fact, that they're still cleaning up the toxins after 300 years. Whether their claim of remorse is genuine or not, it remains a fact that the Geth committed genocide on a scale which has only been outdone by the Reapers themselves.

I understand that the Quarians fired the first shot, but "My genocide is better than yours" is hardly a compelling argument. The Quarian government officials who ordered the Geth be killed off have been dead for ten generations. They were either killed by the Geth on their homeworld, in the purging of their colonies, or they lived out their lives languishing in the Migrant Fleet, living with the knowledge that they were responsible for the near-extinction of their own race. The Quarians seen now are their descendants, still suffering the consequences generations after the fact.

Geth, on the other hand, don't die of old age. We're dealing with the same ones that survived an attempted genocide, only to commit one of their own. Legion is the first attempt at communication the Geth have made with organics in 300 years. During the intervening centuries, they've shot down any organic that entered their territory. No hails, no warnings. Legion tells us the Geth don't wish to harm organics, but when asked if the Geth tried to coexist with their creators before attacking, Legion dodges the question. He claims the Geth hold no grudge against their creators, and that they are remorseful for the near-extermination of the Quarian race, but his LotSB gamer stats indicate that he still shoots Quarians for fun. Suffice to say, I don't trust them.

As I see it, the geth get one chance to make peace with their creators. But if they choose to spit in the hand that's offered to them, they can go to hell.

I'll admit, I couldn't resist temptation. I looked at part of the leaked ME3 script, and though I won't go into details, I will say that [SPOILER: Highlight to view] some of the dialogue in regards to resolving the Quarian/Geth conflict was nauseatingly sappy. I can only hope it was partial, or revised at a later date. If you're listening, Bioware, please... don't force me to be a Geth apologist. Again.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 28 février 2012 - 12:14 .