1876 réponses à ce sujet

[Esquin]

Meeszy Alexy wrote...

Esquin wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Let me make it very clear that anyone using this thread as a soapbox to tell the world why they feel this kind of childish, immature behaviour is warranted will be removed from the thread.

The behaviour expressed by those bully Jennifer was indeed terrible and should never be repeated. I agree 100% with you on that.

However I still feel that some of Jennifers writing is not up to scratch. I also think that her ideas regarding "skippable combat" are something that would have a negative impact on video games as a form of entertainment. I don't say these things to attack her, or to say she is a bad person. But I do strongly disagree with her ideas, and it is my right to voice that disagreement. I am not bullying or judging her as a person. I'm simply saying that I disagree with her and her opinions on gaming. I believe that her opinions on the future of gaming make her ill suited to working in the industry. 

If you consider this bullying please tell me and I will delete my post myself. I however think that this is simply a statement of my opinion and not bullying.

See, this is a reasonable opinion. I don't agree with it, but you're talking about it in a reasonable way. Therefore, this shouldn't be deleted. 

Thank you. I'm glad there are a few people in this topic willing to actually discuss things and not just yell from the tops of towers about whatever extreme view point they hold.


Can you tell me why you disagree however? Is it that you believe her writting is good? In which case that is largly a matter of personal taste, or do you disagree with my assessment of what her views on skippable gameplay would do to games?

[Passionaticus]

Jexx21 wrote...

Passionaticus wrote...

Bioware was born with us, they will die with us. The only question is how - through natural and peaceful means, or though war, tarnished image and bankrupcy. If they want to continue making consoleware shooters and dating sims -fine, but they need to change their brand name and publicly admit that this is entirely new company, with no history, that it has no ties to BG series, KOTOR and original DAO. We'll settle for nothing less.

ME1 was made before DA:O, and DA:O was affected by Hepler, unlike the ME series.

So by what you're asking, Hepler would be associated with BioWare, and with one of it's 'great' games (by what you put down here), and a game that was released before one of these great games wouldn't be.

You're not making sense.

Gaider was involved with greatest game of all time - Baldurs Gate 2. That doesnt make him a great writer, a lot of people worked on it. And I'm not blaming Hepler that much, the whole company has gone rogue. Hepler was just unlucky and naive enough to underestimate the rage of old-school Bioware fanbase,

Modifié par Passionaticus, 21 février 2012 - 11:08 .

[John Epler]

Andhaira wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Andhaira wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It seems you know little of John Epler. He is one who always gives room to both sides of the story. In this case there is no logic in it at all.

So we can discuss both sides of the story... expect we are not allowed to discuss the, as you called, "illogical" side of it because... it's not allowed to be discussed.

Cool.

No you see you can totally do that as long as you're not acting like a little child about it.  It's such a crazy idea, I know.

Then could you clarify why were legitimate posts that discussed this other side of the story and were not childish or offensive at all deleted/edited?

If you can name specific posts, I can probably tell you why. In threads like this, though, posts that are inflammatory tend to be removed to keep things on-topic. As well as quote pyramids, or anything that makes the thread more obnoxiously difficult to read.

[wuat]

[Inanity removed]

Modifié par JohnEpler, 21 février 2012 - 11:11 .

[Pinkflu]

Esquin wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...

The way Jennifer Hepler has been treated by so called "fans" and certain individuals of the gaming community has been inexcusable, disgusting and utterly lacking in basic human decency. And I'm disappointed to see it on BSN as well.

But I'm very glad BioWare has publicly given its support, and am pleased to see there still are companies that care for their employees well-being.

My best wishes to Hepler, and all the people who've taken initiative in challenging the culture of internet harassment - particularly when it is directed at women working in a male-dominated industry. You people rock!

Her gender should not make her a target for criticism and bullying.

However it should not make her immune to critical comments either. I should be able to disagree with her opinions and dislike her writing regardless of her gender. But there are many in this topic who seem to feel that because she is a woman she should be immune to all crticial comments.

I agree, nobody should get a free ride because of their sex/gender. But we're not implying that Hepler is a flawless saint because she isn't a man.

Let's be clear here. As has been said numerous times, Hepler did not merely face criticism. She was subjected to outright harrassment. It would be wrong, no matter who it happened to. It shouldn't ever happen.

If it were the case that people were merely criticizing her comments or work, I wouldn't take issue with that. But the way in which she has been victimized smacks of sexism.

[smirtington]

Regardless of the response she received, is she going to be at least be talked to about why her initial comments, which sparked the whole thing, weren't professional on any level? Or how about the comments of Aaryn Flynn, telling potential customers to "**** off?"

[Blacklash93]

I let myself get a little emotional last time I argued about this and that didn't work out for me. I just can't stand not only those who have made these childish insults, but even those who make anything that even slightly resembles an excuse for it. Promoters and encouragers are just as bad.

Part of me thinks people wouldn't be so critical of her work if she didn't say that thing about combat in the interview. It would have never put the spotlight on her and she'd be just another writer at Bioware.

I honestly think she's a good writer in what she's currently doing. The Dwarf Commoner and Mage Origins were some of my favorites and I believe she did a really good job with Anders in DA2. She also wrote a significant part of Orzammar and the Anvil of the Void and everything in that was well written, IMO.

Not a fan of Sebastian currently, but he has his far share.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 21 février 2012 - 11:13 .

[Lareieli]

Thank you so much for supporting Jennifer.

Your loyal fan and customer,
Lareieli

[Andhaira]

JohnEpler wrote...
If you can name specific posts, I can probably tell you why. In threads like this, though, posts that are inflammatory tend to be removed to keep things on-topic. As well as quote pyramids, or anything that makes the thread more obnoxiously difficult to read.

Well, there was that post made by TheCourier on page 7 that expressed some quite valid points towards what fueled this whole thing regarding Hepler. It got edited to:

Ladies and gentlemen, this is absolutely unacceptable.

Something he did no write and that does not reflect in any way his opinion.

This makes it look like Bioware is deliberatly fabricating people's posts to support their own "agenda".

[conorrory]

While I agree that these kind of unprecendented attacks on any individual are unwaranted and unfair, and Its good to see a company support their employee's I would ask Bioware to remind their employee's from a buisness and company representation point of view to conduct themselves in a polite and orderly manner without lowering themselves to the levels of harsh critics or indeed abusive commentors.

This is true in any line of work where you are a public face for any company.

While I respect the fact the your employee's rightfully defended themselves from these unwaranted attacks by organised groups such as reddit, the language used in defence was less than elequent and not befitting of a public persona.

[CG50]

[Post quoting inappropriate post removed]

Modifié par JohnEpler, 21 février 2012 - 11:18 .

[thepringle]

Modifié par thepringle, 21 février 2012 - 11:14 .

[Shinji Ex]

Bullying is never cool!
and is just ignorance on your part

You can be a critic all you want but... use proper mature feedback

[Marionetten]

Pinkflu wrote...

If it were the case that people were merely criticizing her comments or work, I wouldn't take issue with that. But the way in which she has been victimized smacks of sexism.

... Unlike Gaider, Silverman and Laidlaw? 

I'm really not sure why she is to be considered a special case here. If anything that distinction smacks of sexism.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Andhaira wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It seems you know little of John Epler. He is one who always gives room to both sides of the story. In this case there is no logic in it at all.

So we can discuss both sides of the story... except we are not allowed to discuss the, as you called, "illogical" side of it because... it's not allowed to be discussed.

Cool.

Nah. I gave a reason, but you did not quote that.

When bullying comes into the picture then you will gain nothing. Critique is OK (I am one who is very critical and rarely defend BW's booboos), but I also think aggression is counterproductive. It will get you nowhere. If there is an issue with a product then describe that issue the best you can. Tell why and how it should be changed. Use reason. BW may or may not decide to pick that up. But if they don't then there is no reason to start a personal attack on one of the employees. It only shows anger and it this case it hurts Jennifer Hepler personally. She doesn't deserve that. It also doesn't serve the plea. And it looks like she's not involved using her writing skills anyway.

[Noviere]

Esquin wrote...
I believe that her opinions on the future of gaming make her ill suited to working in the industry. 

This is the only part of your post that I would consider objectionable. Just because you disagree with her opinion on something, or dislike her writing(which is HIGHLY subjective -- I'm sure many people enjoy the content she's contributed) doesn't mean you get to give her unsolicited career advice.

Don't take my post the wrong way though -- I think you voicing your opinion on her abilities as a writer is fine(if a little ill-timed), and you've expressed that in a non-offensive way.

[FoxyB]

smirtington wrote...

Regardless of the response she received, is she going to be at least be talked to about why her initial comments, which sparked the whole thing, weren't professional on any level? Or how about the comments of Aaryn Flynn, telling potential customers to "**** off?"

Her "jealousy" comment didn't spark it. The reddit post did and then they got wind of her twitter account. And I'm sure she is aware by now that her and Aaryn's behavior was less than professional.

[OrkMan491]

Pinkflu wrote...

Esquin wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...

The way Jennifer Hepler has been treated by so called "fans" and certain individuals of the gaming community has been inexcusable, disgusting and utterly lacking in basic human decency. And I'm disappointed to see it on BSN as well.

But I'm very glad BioWare has publicly given its support, and am pleased to see there still are companies that care for their employees well-being.

My best wishes to Hepler, and all the people who've taken initiative in challenging the culture of internet harassment - particularly when it is directed at women working in a male-dominated industry. You people rock!

Her gender should not make her a target for criticism and bullying.

However it should not make her immune to critical comments either. I should be able to disagree with her opinions and dislike her writing regardless of her gender. But there are many in this topic who seem to feel that because she is a woman she should be immune to all crticial comments.

I agree, nobody should get a free ride because of their sex/gender. But we're not implying that Hepler is a flawless saint because she isn't a man.

Let's be clear here. As has been said numerous times, Hepler did not merely face criticism. She was subjected to outright harrassment. It would be wrong, no matter who it happened to. It shouldn't ever happen.

If it were the case that people were merely criticizing her comments or work, I wouldn't take issue with that. But the way in which she has been victimized smacks of sexism.

Here is a question for you: do you think if that interview wouldn't happen, then Hepler would be still "victimized by sexism"? Clearly not, but by your logic, you are saying that her bad performance has nothing to do with this whole case.

[redmenace8]

It a pollyanna view to think that some of the criticism of Helper is not based on gender.

At this point though, it no longer matters, this started with a few individuals with an all consuming personal issue with Helper and now it has been joined by the anarchists who pile on whenever a mob forms. Whatever legitimate issues some may have with the creative styles and directions at play, won't be able to be discussed in a level headed way for some time. The sheer vindictiveness of a few have raised temperatures too high for that.

I enjoy Bioware games a great deal. They are a huge accomplishment for the massive team that is Bioware. Are they always perfect, no, but they do listen to the fans for relevant issues while experimenting to try new things. And yes, writing and dialog mean a great deal to me. I wouldn't mind a game having a skip combat option, sometimes I just want the story to play out without interruption. I have trouble playing other games that are plainly just about fighting. Bioware games pack a punch.

People also need to appreciate that sometimes having someone from a different point of view can enhance a product. Just having gamers involved in the process of creating a game can lead to a great technical game, but adding a writer, that brings a unique viewpoint. Having that kind of diversity can keep things from being the same A,B,C, plotpoints. You get someone who thinks differently about the material and can manipulate the story to get to the same necessary place in an unexpected way. The more genetically diverse something is, the better.

If all those people who are so offended by what EA/Bioware does gathered their resources I'm sure they could recreate the old school style of games they want. I don't see why they don't do that rather than use all that energy bleating on every forum and web site raining on everyone else's parade with the same tired critiscisms over and over. Then they can deal with all the nitpicking to oblivion.

[Poopman1212]

*Objectionable comment removed*

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 21 février 2012 - 11:18 .

[Siona]

conorrory wrote...

While I agree that these kind of unprecendented attacks on any individual are unwaranted and unfair, and Its good to see a company support their employee's I would ask Bioware to remind their employee's from a buisness and company representation point of view to conduct themselves in a polite and orderly manner without lowering themselves to the levels of harsh critics or indeed abusive commentors.

This is true in any line of work where you are a public face for any company.

While I respect the fact the your employee's rightfully defended themselves from these unwaranted attacks by organised groups such as reddit, the language used in defence was less than elequent and not befitting of a public persona.

"Rather than defend the person who was called at her own house about how she was cancer and should miscarry and just die, I'm going to instead attack how she wasn't NICE to defend herself!"

Are you being serious with this right now?

I'll just say it: if this had been a guy doing this, I'd bet everyone would be kissing his ass to high heaven and praising him for being such a badass. But, nope, a woman does it and suddenly she's ~unprofessional~ for not bowing down to assmunches.

[Tryynity]

I had to google to find out the story but I have to say how badly I feel for Ms Hepler - but I am heartened by the protectiveness and grouping together Bioware show for their fellow workers, that is something really beautiful to witness in the midst of such terrible things.

On the internet it is so easy to forget there are real people sitting behind our twitter accounts, blog posts and forum posts.

I hope Ms Hepler has been able to move past it all. My favourite quote is from Big Momma's House because if you can get this it can save you alot of pain.

It's not what people call you - it's what you answer to!

Modifié par Tryynity, 21 février 2012 - 11:16 .

[Arnagath]

I actually agree with her, the battles in dragon age 2 are so terrible (because of spawns and the unability to talk your way through) so I think it would be welcome to skip them. They are by far the worst part of the game. Dragon Age fights where not allot better (the tactical element from Baldurs Gate is gone).

Either make battles interesting or make them shorter/let us skip them. 

[Dirtyjuice]

What's the reason for this? Why censor a man's word? This isn't North Korea.