1876 réponses à ce sujet

[Dirtyjuice]

Melca36 wrote...

ConcernedPeanut wrote...

Consumers have every right to complain about how they are being served. They got angry because they were provoked, not to mention another Bioware employee "fed the trolls" by starting to tell them to "F*ck off" and etc.
Miss Hepler is just an example of how Bioware's writing is starting to show signs of getting worse and worse, they should really address this problem.

Considering you just registered...you really have no credibility at all.

That has nothing to do with the point. Ad hominem attacks are pretty low.

[KashiraDou]

[Inappropriate post removed]

Modifié par JohnEpler, 22 février 2012 - 12:47 .

[Wrathra]

Good on you guys to come out in support of Jennifer.

She's written some of my favorite characters in the DA series and I hope she realizes how valued she is to the community, as well as Bioware.

[ConcernedPeanut]

RosaAquafire wrote...

BillsVengenace wrote...

The vile abuse is WRONG obviously.

However;

1) Hepler is not a particularly good writer and criticism is justified, as is a lot of the criticism directed at BioWare these days. It's a shame that because of the abuse BioWare will sweep ALL criticism under the carpet and blame it on trollish behavior and sexism. Sexism is not an issue here. Mary Kirby and other female members of BioWare staff have not been targeted. Hepler was targetted because of her comments which are emblematic of the decline of BioWare and because her work is not up to standard.

2) The abuse is a manifestation of people's angry towards BioWare for the appalling creative and PR decisions made by the company in recent years. It is regrettable that the angry was channeled at a specific person but BioWare have to admit they have a part to play here. You can't start a fire without a spark.

So, just to be clear.

There's a restaurant you really used to like. You go there one night and the meal absolutely stinks. You then telephone the chef at his house and tell him that he should kill himself, making sure to also threaten and insult his children.

The chef owes you an apology for cooking a bad meal?

This is 4chan your talking about. If they say stuff like that, it shouldn't be taken seriously. But you should really look into why they actually start saying these things.
the abuse was horrible and she didn't really deserve threats, but the reason why they were said makes sense. 

[Melca36]

Ionized Crab wrote...

ademska wrote...

Draythe wrote...

Ionized Crab wrote...

Her reply was also extremely unprofessional to be honest. Still doesn't warrant that type of treatment though, it was probably a desperate lash back.

I thought playing the gender card was incredibly unprofessional. There's plenty of women working in games. The majority of people who have a problem with her take offence at the quality of her writing, not her vagina.

then why, i wonder, aren't they attacking david gaider, the lead writer for dragon age, with this same kind of vitriol? these idiots called her ****ing house.

i would be in support of a ban of every one of you losers defending them in this thread.

it is never acceptable to behave this way toward another human being. ever.

They're attacking hepler because of her THE WORST PART OF WRITING FOR GAMES IS PLAYING GAMES interview she did.

That's why. Inexcusable, but that's why they're attacking her. It's not based on sex, not everything is sexist.

Um...some of us like to do more than shoot and kill in our games. Its 2012...not 1996.

[Sarrawei]

Blacklash93 wrote...

BillsVengenace wrote...

The vile abuse is WRONG obviously.

However;

1) Hepler is not a particularly good writer and criticism is justified, as is a lot of the criticism directed at BioWare these days. It's a shame that because of the abuse BioWare will sweep ALL criticism under the carpet and blame it on trollish behavior and sexism. Sexism is not an issue here. Mary Kirby and other female members of BioWare staff have not been targeted. Hepler was targetted because of her comments which are emblematic of the decline of BioWare and because her work is not up to standard.

Her work's quality is subjective and I absolutely disagree with the sentiment that she is not a good writer. Everything in Orzammar was great and that's really all I need to know about her writing. The Origins she wrote were some of my favorites.

And Hepler has said nothing that coincides with the "decline of Bioware", as you call it. People have simply targeted her because she said something they didn't like and were looking for reasons to hate on her because of it.

It's interesting how the "decline of Bioware" seems to correlate quite well with Bioware games expending effort and welcoming risk in the attempt to be more inclusive to individuals who are often sidelined by popular media.

[A Fusing Shade]

JohnEpler wrote...

A Fusing Shade wrote...

I feel that I must point out that, during this argument, as I have observed, people have tried  to discuss and comment on her work in a respectful fashion - though not always agree with it - and it has been editted, censored or removed. They were polite, made no attacks towards any member of Bioware but, simply stated their criticisms of Bioware, it's recent workings and other choices yet, vanished completely. 

I am moved to ask what you would define as "respectful fashion" as I am under the impression it simply means 'So long as it is possitive words along the lines of "This is the best game ever!"'

Though I am an old fan of Bioware I have seen how some employees have reacted towards the futile and childish actions of some anonymous users and I cannot think that it is a good representation of Bioware nor professional in anyway. I think a problem arises when both sides, both the agressors and Bioware itself, lower themselves to flinging mud and insults.

I mean no ill will in my statements, I am merely curious.

You'll have to show me the posts in question - I think we've been fairly good about leaving any non-vitirolic posts intact, but I'd be lying if I said that, in the heat of the moment, we might overreact.

However! There are a few good examples early on about taking issue with the statements made without attacking Jennifer as a person. And the latter is unacceptable.

I just caught up from the previous page and found you had addressed one of the posts I had thought to be fair expression, however, I saw you expressed your position on that particular post and understand it to some degree. I agree that, when it comes taking issue with writing, gameplay or anything within a video game one shouldn't attack those involved (or in some cases not involved) with it's development - Not in the way we have seen on Jennifer Heplers twitter.

I myself am a fan of Biowares older titles: NWN and Baldurs Gate (and, to a lesser extent, Mass Effect 1). Though I would say I feel there has been a change in Bioware storytelling I am not one to begin causing a fuss on someones twitter.

A few of my fellow users seem eager to blame this entire ordeal on misogyny, however, I feel this is an inaccurate judgement and will only cause more arguments and problems. Some people may do well to read this article I myself read:

http://www.cracked.c...and-each-other/ 

Perhaps it will aid in helping people communicate better within these forums. Good luck on the battlefield!

Modifié par A Fusing Shade, 22 février 2012 - 12:49 .

[Guldhun2]

Jennifer Hepler writes a not so good book. (The CIA meets Harry Potter one)

She then gets hired by Bioware

She starts writing for Dragon Age Origins

In an Interview she says that she dislikes videogames, and wishes them to be more like interactive movies

She then starts writing for DA2. Which, like her book, isn't that good

Many people dislike the writing she did for DA2 and her comment about 'hating' video games.

Jennifer dismisses all the comments about her poor writing with the famous "lol i r hav vagina"

And then the internet happened





And after all that, you guys act suprised this happened? If you disrupt the hornet's nest that is the internet with comments like "i don't like videogames" while working on a video game and "all those critics are jealous of vagina" you will get attacked. Not that i approve of what happened, but you had to see it coming. Especially with a well known developer like Bioware.

Modifié par Guldhun2, 22 février 2012 - 12:49 .

[ciaweth]

RosaAquafire wrote...

BillsVengenace wrote...

The vile abuse is WRONG obviously.

However;

1) Hepler is not a particularly good writer and criticism is justified, as is a lot of the criticism directed at BioWare these days. It's a shame that because of the abuse BioWare will sweep ALL criticism under the carpet and blame it on trollish behavior and sexism. Sexism is not an issue here. Mary Kirby and other female members of BioWare staff have not been targeted. Hepler was targetted because of her comments which are emblematic of the decline of BioWare and because her work is not up to standard.

2) The abuse is a manifestation of people's angry towards BioWare for the appalling creative and PR decisions made by the company in recent years. It is regrettable that the angry was channeled at a specific person but BioWare have to admit they have a part to play here. You can't start a fire without a spark.

So, just to be clear.

There's a restaurant you really used to like. You go there one night and the meal absolutely stinks. You then telephone the chef at his house and tell him that he should kill himself, making sure to also threaten and insult his children.

The chef owes you an apology for cooking a bad meal?

No, the chef owes no one an apology in that scenario.  But if you visit Not Always Right, you will see there are plenty of people in this world who are blind to that reality.

[Dirtyjuice]

Melca36 wrote...

Ionized Crab wrote...

ademska wrote...

Draythe wrote...

Ionized Crab wrote...

Her reply was also extremely unprofessional to be honest. Still doesn't warrant that type of treatment though, it was probably a desperate lash back.

I thought playing the gender card was incredibly unprofessional. There's plenty of women working in games. The majority of people who have a problem with her take offence at the quality of her writing, not her vagina.

then why, i wonder, aren't they attacking david gaider, the lead writer for dragon age, with this same kind of vitriol? these idiots called her ****ing house.

i would be in support of a ban of every one of you losers defending them in this thread.

it is never acceptable to behave this way toward another human being. ever.

They're attacking hepler because of her THE WORST PART OF WRITING FOR GAMES IS PLAYING GAMES interview she did.

That's why. Inexcusable, but that's why they're attacking her. It's not based on sex, not everything is sexist.

Um...some of us like to do more than shoot and kill in our games. Its 2012...not 1996.

There is more to gameplay than shooting and killing. Phoenix Wright being a good example.

Should people skip the investigation parts of PW just because they're too hard?

[Melca36]

[Off-topic sociopolitical discussion removed.]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 22 février 2012 - 12:49 .

[Stanley Woo]

This is a reminder that personal attacks, swearing, and some extreme language is not permitted in our community. We can (and should be able to) disagree with each other without resorting to childish behaviour. This includes throwing tantrums when you don't get your way on someone else's forum.

So let's please cut it out, and remember to be excellent to each other.

[Rieth89]

[Racism removed]

Modifié par JohnEpler, 22 février 2012 - 12:49 .

[Sarrawei]

[quote]Dirtyjuice wrote...

[quote]Melca36 wrote...

[quote]Ionized Crab wrote...
They're attacking hepler because of her THE WORST PART OF WRITING FOR GAMES IS PLAYING GAMES interview she did.

That's why. Inexcusable, but that's why they're attacking her. It's not based on sex, not everything is sexist.

[/quote]


Um...some of us like to do more than shoot and kill in our games. Its 2012...not 1996.

[/quote]

There is more to gameplay than shooting and killing. Phoenix Wright being a good example.

Should people skip the investigation parts of PW just because they're too hard?

[/quote]
That's a pretty appalling example, since the investigation parts of Phoenix Wright:Ace Attourney are literally impossible to fail and therefore can scarcely be deemed "hard."

However, even assuming that one could fail, then yes, they should be able to skip those parts--not because they're too hard, but because they don't want to play them. Games are an entertainment medium, not a second job, a la Skyrim.

[Quote pyramid edited.]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 22 février 2012 - 12:53 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

ConcernedPeanut wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

BillsVengenace wrote...

The vile abuse is WRONG obviously.

However;

1) Hepler is not a particularly good writer and criticism is justified, as is a lot of the criticism directed at BioWare these days. It's a shame that because of the abuse BioWare will sweep ALL criticism under the carpet and blame it on trollish behavior and sexism. Sexism is not an issue here. Mary Kirby and other female members of BioWare staff have not been targeted. Hepler was targetted because of her comments which are emblematic of the decline of BioWare and because her work is not up to standard.

2) The abuse is a manifestation of people's angry towards BioWare for the appalling creative and PR decisions made by the company in recent years. It is regrettable that the angry was channeled at a specific person but BioWare have to admit they have a part to play here. You can't start a fire without a spark.

So, just to be clear.

There's a restaurant you really used to like. You go there one night and the meal absolutely stinks. You then telephone the chef at his house and tell him that he should kill himself, making sure to also threaten and insult his children.

The chef owes you an apology for cooking a bad meal?

This is 4chan your talking about. If they say stuff like that, it shouldn't be taken seriously. But you should really look into why they actually start saying these things.
the abuse was horrible and she didn't really deserve threats, but the reason why they were said makes sense. 

It never makes sense when critique comes in the form of bullying, personal attacks and insults.

[bakagami]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Hi Everyone

Below, please see a message from BioWare co-founder Dr. Ray Muzyka in regards to the recent attacks on Jennfer Hepler.

Jennifer is a valued, talented employee who has been with BioWare for many years and we hope will be with us for many more. It is awful that a few people have decided to make her a target for hate and threats, going so far as fabricating forum posts and attributing them to her, and singling her out for projects to which she has not contributed (i.e., Jennifer is not even a part of the Mass Effect writing team). All of us at BioWare support and will continue to support Jennifer fully, and are happy to see so many people out there are also supporting her during this difficult time.

 - Dr. Ray Muzyka. Co-Founder of BioWare; General Manager, BioWare Label; Senior Vice President, Electronic Arts



Additionally we will be making a donation of $1000 in Jennifer's name to Bullying Canada. Please feel free to also donate to this worthy cause in support.

Thank you again to everyone who has supported Jennifer and BioWare in this difficult time.

speaking for myself I want to say as a long time fan of BW games that I am very sorry about what happened to Jennifer Hepler.  I hope that you know that we are not all like that and that this doens't.change your relationship with our community (which I don't concider those kind of people to be a part of). 

[ConcernedPeanut]

Dirtyjuice wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Ionized Crab wrote...

ademska wrote...

Draythe wrote...

Ionized Crab wrote...

Her reply was also extremely unprofessional to be honest. Still doesn't warrant that type of treatment though, it was probably a desperate lash back.

I thought playing the gender card was incredibly unprofessional. There's plenty of women working in games. The majority of people who have a problem with her take offence at the quality of her writing, not her vagina.

then why, i wonder, aren't they attacking david gaider, the lead writer for dragon age, with this same kind of vitriol? these idiots called her ****ing house.

i would be in support of a ban of every one of you losers defending them in this thread.

it is never acceptable to behave this way toward another human being. ever.

They're attacking hepler because of her THE WORST PART OF WRITING FOR GAMES IS PLAYING GAMES interview she did.

That's why. Inexcusable, but that's why they're attacking her. It's not based on sex, not everything is sexist.

Um...some of us like to do more than shoot and kill in our games. Its 2012...not 1996.

There is more to gameplay than shooting and killing. Phoenix Wright being a good example.

Should people skip the investigation parts of PW just because they're too hard?

I agree with DirtyJuice.
Games usually focus around the progression of the story through risl/reward - You play through the action sequences in order to advance the plot, advancing the plot can be a reward in itself.
Heavy Rain, Phoenix Wright, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry and Kingdom Hearts are good examples.

[jesuno]

Sarrawei wrote...

There's really no question that the root of this problem is misogyny. I admire the Bioware writers for consistently attempting to address this problem both in their fictional universes and in the real one. Just like I've never seen a critique of DA/DA2's romances that didn't boil down to sexism and homophobia, I've never seen a complaint about Helper that didn't stem from the fact that she was female in an entertainment medium which--as much as "true gamers" hate to admit it--has involved women since its very conception.

Boom, a DA2 critique that does not involve sexist or homophobia. While you do not come off as immature like the people laying insults at Hepler, using absolutes does lower you to their platfrom.

[Dirtyjuice]

[Veering off-topic post removed.]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 22 février 2012 - 12:54 .

[Bladefist_01]

Stanley Woo wrote...

We can (and should be able to) disagree with each other without resorting to childish behaviour.

You cannot seriously be writing this, after this is exactly what your employees have displayed?

[AtreiyaN7]

Guldhun2 wrote...

*snips*


And after all that, you guys act suprised this happened? If you disrupt the hornet's nest that is the internet with comments like "i don't like videogames" while working on a video game and "all those critics are jealous of vagina" you will get attacked. Not that i approve of what happened, but you had to see it coming. Especially with a well known developer like Bioware.

No one's surprised - I think we're all aware of how idiots behave on the internet. That doesn't make it okay or mean that people should accept it and take it (which is we're you're essentially implying by saying that we/they had to see it coming) - end of story.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 22 février 2012 - 01:04 .

[Blacklash93]

Sarrawei wrote...
It's interesting how the "decline of Bioware" seems to correlate quite well with Bioware games expending effort and welcoming risk in the attempt to be more inclusive to individuals who are often sidelined by popular media.

That's the same mentality that says "DA2 sucked because all LI's were bi." which is flat-out wrong.

[csfteeeer]

i had forgotten about as to why i don't normally reveal that i am a gamer.

I Remember now.

i mean, it's no secret that my feelings for DA2 aren't exactly sparkly, but this is disgusting,

[smirtington]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

smirtington wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

smirtington wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...
It's a private web forum wherein we have certain rules people agree to when they post here. Don't like them? Don't post here!

If you think this is unfair, well, such is life. I suggest you write your local political representative.

Same could be said about posting inflammatory remarks on twitter, an actual open forum for discussion. If you can't take the heat, don't go into the kitchen.

Have you ever heard of common human decency? The fact that people are oblivious, hateful and think they can say anything they want doesn't make it okay just because the policies on sites/forums/Twitter may allow it to go on. And if you think it's okay, well, I don't want you on my team if there's ever an actual zombie apocalypse (I keep hoping one happens in the forums, more and more with each day that passes here ).

Of which neither side showed, if you post something inflammatory expect to get inlfammatory remarks back in spades. It's pretty simple.

Really? Excuse me while I laugh at that particular defense. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Nothing Hepler said ever merited those insulting and horrible comments. If she (rightfully) ended up p---ed off and anyone else (equally rightfully) ended up p---ed off, then I don't blame her or anyone else who may have flamed those morons right back. The people who posted the cancer comment and things like that should have thought first before opening their mouths. At the point where they actually posted their ill-conceived comments, they stopped deserving to be treated with any measure of respect or decency in kind.

Did you miss the jealous of her v***** quote? That wasn't exactly positive now was it? She has a personal private account, if she wanted to say something of that nature there than that's fine, her right. Only those who are approved could see it. But she went on a public account (not to mention that it was her professional account with ties to Bioware), in full view of everyone on the internet, and hurled insults. How could you say something so polarizing and not expect response on the internet? You'd be foolish to think that people wouldn't take offense.

[Kami102]

Who says that a writer of a game has to love to play video games?

Ms. Helper is a writer. She has no interaction with how the game itself is designed, she just writes the storyline, the characters, or whatever Bioware wants her to. So why is the community in such a rage when she says that she doesn't like video games? Show me where it says that a writer of a video game absolutely must enjoy playing video games.

Every video game needs a writer. Hypothetically, if J.R.R. Tolkien was still alive, and said he was working as a writer for a story to help shape a Lord of the Rings video game, I'd imagine that the millions of Tolkien's fans would be ecstatic. But then he says that he doesn't like to play video games. So what? I don't think any of Tokien's fans would be outraged if he would say that.

If that's a terrible analogy, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to throw a point out there, as most of the community seems to be enraged that she doesn't like to play video games and that she'd like to skip combat, which makes sense when she says that because she is a writer.