1876 réponses à ce sujet

[ConcernedPeanut]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

ConcernedPeanut wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

BillsVengenace wrote...

The vile abuse is WRONG obviously.

However;

1) Hepler is not a particularly good writer and criticism is justified, as is a lot of the criticism directed at BioWare these days. It's a shame that because of the abuse BioWare will sweep ALL criticism under the carpet and blame it on trollish behavior and sexism. Sexism is not an issue here. Mary Kirby and other female members of BioWare staff have not been targeted. Hepler was targetted because of her comments which are emblematic of the decline of BioWare and because her work is not up to standard.

2) The abuse is a manifestation of people's angry towards BioWare for the appalling creative and PR decisions made by the company in recent years. It is regrettable that the angry was channeled at a specific person but BioWare have to admit they have a part to play here. You can't start a fire without a spark.

So, just to be clear.

There's a restaurant you really used to like. You go there one night and the meal absolutely stinks. You then telephone the chef at his house and tell him that he should kill himself, making sure to also threaten and insult his children.

The chef owes you an apology for cooking a bad meal?

This is 4chan your talking about. If they say stuff like that, it shouldn't be taken seriously. But you should really look into why they actually start saying these things.
the abuse was horrible and she didn't really deserve threats, but the reason why they were said makes sense. 

It never makes sense when critique comes in the form of bullying, personal attacks and insults.

Like I said, not so much what they are actually saying, but the reason why it is being said. I mean, who can really take something like "You fat n ugly har har" as a legitimate critique on your writing, but if they are in amounts equal to what everyone saw, I don't think its for no reason.
[inappropriate comments removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 22 février 2012 - 12:57 .

[Sarrawei]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Sarrawei wrote...
It's interesting how the "decline of Bioware" seems to correlate quite well with Bioware games expending effort and welcoming risk in the attempt to be more inclusive to individuals who are often sidelined by popular media.

That's the same mentality that says "DA2 sucked because all LI's were bi." which is flat-out wrong.

Sorry, I was unclear. I do not believe Bioware is declining at all, I meant my quotes to indicate sarcasm. I mean people keep saying that the games are "worse" when they stop pandering to comfortable, mainstream values and instead take risks. The games are in no way getting worse (except for EA's ridiculous development cycle, which is not under Bioware's power to change). 

Did you know the Disney movie "Bambi" received middling-to-poor reviews upon release? Critics claimed it had "lost the magic" and was trying to undermine the values of the time. Nowadays, we'd say that is ridiculous. Same situation.

Modifié par Sarrawei, 22 février 2012 - 12:58 .

[QuentinCompson]

 Wow real mature.

I can call names too, Biohater:whistle:

[txpreach]

JohnEpler wrote...

A Fusing Shade wrote...

I feel that I must point out that, during this argument, as I have observed, people have tried  to discuss and comment on her work in a respectful fashion - though not always agree with it - and it has been editted, censored or removed. They were polite, made no attacks towards any member of Bioware but, simply stated their criticisms of Bioware, it's recent workings and other choices yet, vanished completely. 

I am moved to ask what you would define as "respectful fashion" as I am under the impression it simply means 'So long as it is possitive words along the lines of "This is the best game ever!"'

Though I am an old fan of Bioware I have seen how some employees have reacted towards the futile and childish actions of some anonymous users and I cannot think that it is a good representation of Bioware nor professional in anyway. I think a problem arises when both sides, both the agressors and Bioware itself, lower themselves to flinging mud and insults.

I mean no ill will in my statements, I am merely curious.

You'll have to show me the posts in question - I think we've been fairly good about leaving any non-vitirolic posts intact, but I'd be lying if I said that, in the heat of the moment, we might overreact.

However! There are a few good examples early on about taking issue with the statements made without attacking Jennifer as a person. And the latter is unacceptable.

Proof in questionimages.4chan.org/v/src/1329864964011.jpg

[Dirtyjuice]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Sarrawei wrote...
It's interesting how the "decline of Bioware" seems to correlate quite well with Bioware games expending effort and welcoming risk in the attempt to be more inclusive to individuals who are often sidelined by popular media.

That's the same mentality that says "DA2 sucked because all LI's were bi." which is flat-out wrong.

That is a point because there was no logical reason for some of the characters to be bi, as well as the fact that it feels like a poorly written harem novel tailored for the player for what felt like fetish fuel.

However, Zevran and Leilana did not feel that way. Their romances with both genders actually seemed appropriate.

[Blacklash93]

Sarrawei wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Sarrawei wrote...
It's interesting how the "decline of Bioware" seems to correlate quite well with Bioware games expending effort and welcoming risk in the attempt to be more inclusive to individuals who are often sidelined by popular media.

That's the same mentality that says "DA2 sucked because all LI's were bi." which is flat-out wrong.

Sorry, I was unclear. I do not believe Bioware is declining at all, I meant my quotes to indicate sarcasm. I mean people keep saying that the games are "worse" when they stop pandering to comfortable, mainstream values.

Oh, I knew that. I was just being serious responding to sarcasm so I can see how you took my post that way. I wasn't saying you were like that or anything. Sorry that I came across like that.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 22 février 2012 - 01:01 .

[ConcernedPeanut]

Kami102 wrote...

Who says that a writer of a game has to love to play video games?

Ms. Helper is a writer. She has no interaction with how the game itself is designed, she just writes the storyline, the characters, or whatever Bioware wants her to. So why is the community in such a rage when she says that she doesn't like video games? Show me where it says that a writer of a video game absolutely must enjoy playing video games.

Every video game needs a writer. Hypothetically, if J.R.R. Tolkien was still alive, and said he was working as a writer for a story to help shape a Lord of the Rings video game, I'd imagine that the millions of Tolkien's fans would be ecstatic. But then he says that he doesn't like to play video games. So what? I don't think any of Tokien's fans would be outraged if he would say that.

If that's a terrible analogy, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to throw a point out there, as most of the community seems to be enraged that she doesn't like to play video games and that she'd like to skip combat, which makes sense when she says that because she is a writer.

Writers can not like games and still write for them, I fully agree. The point is, Bioware's writing is... well... Getting worse. When I played through the demo of Mass Effect 3 I cringed because they picked killing a child as their way of making the game have depth in its prologue... It's picking off the bottom of the barrel.

[Dirtyjuice]

Kami102 wrote...

Who says that a writer of a game has to love to play video games?

When you work for a video game company and then brag about it.

[CG50]

QuentinCompson wrote...

 Wow real mature.

I can call names too, Biohater:whistle:

 oh no you didn't! lol 

[A Fusing Shade]

Sarrawei wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Sarrawei wrote...
It's interesting how the "decline of Bioware" seems to correlate quite well with Bioware games expending effort and welcoming risk in the attempt to be more inclusive to individuals who are often sidelined by popular media.

That's the same mentality that says "DA2 sucked because all LI's were bi." which is flat-out wrong.

Sorry, I was unclear. I do not believe Bioware is declining at all, I meant my quotes to indicate sarcasm. I mean people keep saying that the games are "worse" when they stop pandering to comfortable, mainstream values. The games are in no way getting worse (except for EA's ridiculous development cycle, which is not under Bioware's power to change). 

Please do not play on the idea that the reason behind people disliking DA2 was due to homophobia. While some may have had an issue with it, I do not think it is fair to say it is a problem with the majority of those whom had any dislike for DA2.

[QuentinCompson]

[People are free to offer their opinion on any part of BioWare's games. That's why these forums are here.]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 22 février 2012 - 01:01 .

[BillsVengenace]

RosaAquafire wrote...

BillsVengenace wrote...

The vile abuse is WRONG obviously.

However;

1) Hepler is not a particularly good writer and criticism is justified, as is a lot of the criticism directed at BioWare these days. It's a shame that because of the abuse BioWare will sweep ALL criticism under the carpet and blame it on trollish behavior and sexism. Sexism is not an issue here. Mary Kirby and other female members of BioWare staff have not been targeted. Hepler was targetted because of her comments which are emblematic of the decline of BioWare and because her work is not up to standard.

2) The abuse is a manifestation of people's angry towards BioWare for the appalling creative and PR decisions made by the company in recent years. It is regrettable that the angry was channeled at a specific person but BioWare have to admit they have a part to play here. You can't start a fire without a spark.

So, just to be clear.

There's a restaurant you really used to like. You go there one night and the meal absolutely stinks. You then telephone the chef at his house and tell him that he should kill himself, making sure to also threaten and insult his children.

The chef owes you an apology for cooking a bad meal?

I explicitly stated that the abuse was wrong.

But two wrongs don't make a right. 

[Blacklash93]

Dirtyjuice wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Sarrawei wrote...
It's interesting how the "decline of Bioware" seems to correlate quite well with Bioware games expending effort and welcoming risk in the attempt to be more inclusive to individuals who are often sidelined by popular media.

That's the same mentality that says "DA2 sucked because all LI's were bi." which is flat-out wrong.

That is a point because there was no logical reason for some of the characters to be bi, as well as the fact that it feels like a poorly written harem novel tailored for the player for what felt like fetish fuel.

However, Zevran and Leilana did not feel that way. Their romances with both genders actually seemed appropriate.

Is it logical? No. Do I agree with it? No.

But did that make DA2 suck or contribute to it? Absolutely not.

And yeah... "fetish fuel"? We're done.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 22 février 2012 - 01:02 .

[Sarrawei]

A Fusing Shade wrote...

Sarrawei wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Sarrawei wrote...
It's interesting how the "decline of Bioware" seems to correlate quite well with Bioware games expending effort and welcoming risk in the attempt to be more inclusive to individuals who are often sidelined by popular media.

That's the same mentality that says "DA2 sucked because all LI's were bi." which is flat-out wrong.

Sorry, I was unclear. I do not believe Bioware is declining at all, I meant my quotes to indicate sarcasm. I mean people keep saying that the games are "worse" when they stop pandering to comfortable, mainstream values. The games are in no way getting worse (except for EA's ridiculous development cycle, which is not under Bioware's power to change). 

Please do not play on the idea that the reason behind people disliking DA2 was due to homophobia. While some may have had an issue with it, I do not think it is fair to say it is a problem with the majority of those whom had any dislike for DA2.

When people defend their opinion of a game by citing bugs that don't exist and dialogues that don't happen, you have to think that despite their assertions, there is a different underlying motivator.

Also it's hilarious to see people talking about how "unrealistic" the demographics are in a fantasy game that takes place in another universe with different races and dragons flying all around the place. Sure, I can accept someone shooting fire out of his hands, but four bisexuals? You're mad! Mad, I tell you!

Modifié par Sarrawei, 22 février 2012 - 01:03 .

[StyxxnStones]

I will whole-hardheartedly agree that the comments and threats directed at Jennifer Hepler were asinine, idiotic, and childish. But remember who you are dealing with, this is the masses of the internet, a majority of these users are underage simpletons anyway. I wouldn't really expect a formal and polite rebuttal from someone who frequents reddit.

Jennifer Hepler, however, is an adult, and works for a professional company. She IS expected to be mature and polite, because not only is she an adult, but also because she represents a very important company. Saying things like "I don't even enjoy video games" while working for a video game company is rather unprofessional. If she were in my employ, I would have been very embarrassed that such things were said by one of my employees. Bringing up your gender as an argument to critics and trolls (even arguing with internet trolls in the first place) is also very unprofessional and childish.

I don't condone the harsh treatment and abuse of her as of late, but neither side is completely in the right.

[ConcernedPeanut]

QuentinCompson wrote...

ConcernedPeanut wrote...

Writers can not like games and still write for them, I fully agree. The point is, Bioware's writing is... well... Getting worse. When I played through the demo of Mass Effect 3 I cringed because they picked killing a child as their way of making the game have depth in its prologue... It's picking off the bottom of the barrel.

Who are you to say the writing is getting bad?

Are you a professional critic?

No?

Then what gives you authority??? 

Being a consumer of Biowares games, and a fan of Bioware's previous titles, I have a right to voice my opinion of what I didn't like about the game, and what might'be made it better. It's not that I don't like Bioware, I want to see it become something better and maybe criticism from the fans may provide feedback in a positive way.

I don't have to be a professional to say what I think.

[Bladefist_01]

Kami102 wrote...

Who says that a writer of a game has to love to play video games?

Ms. Helper is a writer. She has no interaction with how the game itself is designed, she just writes the storyline, the characters, or whatever Bioware wants her to. So why is the community in such a rage when she says that she doesn't like video games? Show me where it says that a writer of a video game absolutely must enjoy playing video games.

Every video game needs a writer. Hypothetically, if J.R.R. Tolkien was still alive, and said he was working as a writer for a story to help shape a Lord of the Rings video game, I'd imagine that the millions of Tolkien's fans would be ecstatic. But then he says that he doesn't like to play video games. So what? I don't think any of Tokien's fans would be outraged if he would say that.

If that's a terrible analogy, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to throw a point out there, as most of the community seems to be enraged that she doesn't like to play video games and that she'd like to skip combat, which makes sense when she says that because she is a writer.

A valid point, but I think the community is more in an uproar over the fact that she wasn't much of a proven writer either. I mean, I could easily overlook the fact she dislikes video games IF she had a fantastic resume with proof she can write competantly, well I would want that anyway. But in Mrs. Hepler's case, this, should not have gotten her a job at Bioware.

[csfteeeer]

ademska wrote...

fantastic response; thank you, bioware.

and to those of you who condemn ms. hepler's response: you may find it irresponsible, but keep it to yourself. bringing it in here implies that she was in any way responsible for the disgusting actions of the bullying masses. this woman was bombarded with constant hate for days and even called at her house. how would you react in that kind of situation?

LOL

[tehprincessJ]

I heart you, Jennifer. ♥

[Esquin]

Kami102 wrote...

Who says that a writer of a game has to love to play video games?

Ms. Helper is a writer. She has no interaction with how the game itself is designed, she just writes the storyline, the characters, or whatever Bioware wants her to. So why is the community in such a rage when she says that she doesn't like video games? Show me where it says that a writer of a video game absolutely must enjoy playing video games.

Every video game needs a writer. Hypothetically, if J.R.R. Tolkien was still alive, and said he was working as a writer for a story to help shape a Lord of the Rings video game, I'd imagine that the millions of Tolkien's fans would be ecstatic. But then he says that he doesn't like to play video games. So what? I don't think any of Tokien's fans would be outraged if he would say that.

If that's a terrible analogy, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to throw a point out there, as most of the community seems to be enraged that she doesn't like to play video games and that she'd like to skip combat, which makes sense when she says that because she is a writer.

A writer writes differently based on what they're writing for. Indeed how a writer puts a story together can and usually does have a great impact on the final product. Producers and directors can tell the writers what they would prefer, but to suggest that the writing staff have no control over the final design of the game is niave. 

To use your example. If Tolkien tried to write for a video game the same way he wrote for novels then those games would be an unmitigated disaster. Because you cannot write the same way for both mediums. Helper doesn't have a complete and proper understanding of what makes the video game medium appealing to those who enjoy it, therefore she should not be a part of that industry.

[Celtic Latino]

I think it's awesome you are supporting Ms. Hepler.

Honestly, the BSN community has definitely become a place of self-entitlement.

This article sums up exactly the point:
http://www.gamespot....lement-6350732/

I think resorting to such commentary is beyond disgusting, childish and downright inhuman just because an employee happened to make an honest suggestion. Video games are a lot like books and movies combined except more interactive, so whose to say that option cannot be in games? It's a lot like having a multiplayer feature and anything else. They are added trinkets that don't detract from the core experience.

I'm not going to just blame BSN here because it's on any internet site. People love to come onto forums and post their personal hatred towards someone simply to get such harsh words out there. It's horrid. I'm sure even the most devout whinebots would agree that such commentary is out of line and unnecessary, and it's all because someone feels threatened that the game isn't going to be how they think it should be. You see it with Dragon Age 2 and now you see it with Mass Effect 3. In fact I think it's pretty pathetic the script has to be changed just because fans didn't get the story and ending THEY wanted. Its pretty much bullying all in its own.

BioWare as a company has a right to take new directions. They are not obligated to produce the same kind of game just because someone likes it. They are also not obligated to satisfy those who didn't like it and pacify them. I can see the deal with Mass Effect Deception since fans were pretty devoted to the lore, but as far as their products BioWare has a right to do as they see fit. If the complainers don't like it, they can simply ignore the game instead of making a new thread complaining in hopes it will be changed to their tastes. I did that with Star Wars: The Old Republic. I'm not a fan of MMOs so I simply didn't bother. But I didn't feel that BioWare couldn't create the product of devote a hate thread each day because of it.

The 'entitlement' mentality is childish and unrealistic. If someone doesn't like a direction or game, simply don't buy it, write your own fan-fiction, or get a degree and make your own games.

We should all be ashamed of the attacks that happened. It was totally uncalled for and unreasonable. My apologies go to Ms. Hepler and I'd like to say keep up the good work BioWare. You handle a lot in the face of making great games and trying to stay loyal to your fans. There's those of us out there that strongly disagree with the actions taken and refuse to take part in that insanity.

[QuentinCompson]

ConcernedPeanut wrote...
Being a consumer of Biowares games, and a fan of Bioware's previous titles, I have a right to voice my opinion of what I didn't like about the game, and what might'be made it better. It's not that I don't like Bioware, I want to see it become something better and maybe criticism from the fans may provide feedback in a positive way.

I don't have to be a professional to say what I think.

Just because you have the right doesn't mean you should voice it.

I have the right to bear arms for self defense, doesn't mean I go walking around in public with a gun rack.

[Blacklash93]

Bladefist_01 wrote...

A valid point, but I think the community is more in an uproar over the fact that she wasn't much of a proven writer either. I mean, I could easily overlook the fact she dislikes video games IF she had a fantastic resume with proof she can write competantly, well I would want that anyway. But in Mrs. Hepler's case, this, should not have gotten her a job at Bioware.

You want proof of competence? Look at her work in Dragon Age.

[jesuno]

Sarrawei wrote...

A Fusing Shade wrote...

Sarrawei wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Sarrawei wrote...
It's interesting how the "decline of Bioware" seems to correlate quite well with Bioware games expending effort and welcoming risk in the attempt to be more inclusive to individuals who are often sidelined by popular media.

That's the same mentality that says "DA2 sucked because all LI's were bi." which is flat-out wrong.

Sorry, I was unclear. I do not believe Bioware is declining at all, I meant my quotes to indicate sarcasm. I mean people keep saying that the games are "worse" when they stop pandering to comfortable, mainstream values. The games are in no way getting worse (except for EA's ridiculous development cycle, which is not under Bioware's power to change). 

Please do not play on the idea that the reason behind people disliking DA2 was due to homophobia. While some may have had an issue with it, I do not think it is fair to say it is a problem with the majority of those whom had any dislike for DA2.

When people defend their opinion of a game by citing bugs that don't exist and dialogues that don't happen, you have to think that despite their assertions, there is a different underlying motivator.

Or when people defend there love of a game by saying all criticisms of a game come down to mysgyny and homophobia........

[ColdRiver]

[inappropriate post removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 22 février 2012 - 01:09 .