51 réponses à ce sujet

[Stanley Woo]

Throw_Rug wrote...
I do, however, think its sometimes appropriate to voice criticism of the opinions of people who make video games. Otherwise they would not have any opportunity to improve their work or stay in touch with the people they make games for. If all we did was to tell them that they were excellent in every way, nothing would ever get better.

It is absolutely appropriate to voice criticism of game developers. it's one of the reasons we have open forums here in the BioWare Social Network. But there need to be common ground rules, like our posted Site Rules that each and every user agrees to follow and be governed by when they sign up to participate here. without those ground rules, it's extremely easy, as we've seen, for one side or another to have a tremendous advantage.

[John Epler]

bsphil wrote...

Morroian wrote...

bsphil wrote...

But just what can Bioware do to appease these people?

Stop the censorship of BioWare forums and be more open to discussion with people who happen to not like the game?  That'd go pretty far in terms of smoothing things over.  Censoring whatever you don't want to hear results in turning a distraught fan into an angry former customer.

What censorship? Cause from my time here they've been very tolerant of letting discussions criticising them stay open so long as the discussion is civil.  Heck this thread is an example of that.

Do you have links to unjustly locked threads?

Look 7 posts up from yours.  It was a picture of a post before it got deleted.  It was critical of Bioware but civil and thought out.  It actually related to THIS topic, too.

Referring to the moderation staff as 12 year olds on power trips is not civil.

And, as previously mentioned, it was off-topic aside from a brief tangent referring to the situation in question. So let's drop this tangent.

Modifié par JohnEpler, 22 février 2012 - 03:49 .

[Stanley Woo]

Thank you for your suggestion, bsphil, but I think we'll determine for ourselves how we deal with our forum. For the time being, we'll maintain the status quo, Moderation-wise.

[John Epler]

I'm going to say this one more time, and then we're done with this particular tangent.

We do not censor criticism. There are a number of people who have been openly and consistently critical of the direction they feel we've taken, and they remain uncensored. We constantly have threads open that are, themselves, quite critical, and they remain uncensored. We have a firm commitment to the notion that criticism and critique are one of the best ways to grow as developers. I (and many others, including those in positions of far greater importance than mine) have engaged with our fans in a variety of instances. We discuss criticism. We look at where people are coming from.

What we do not tolerate, nor will we ever tolerate, is abuse. Particularly against our employees. Moreover, there are a very clearly defined set of rules that everyone agrees to when they sign up to this website. When people find they are unable to follow those rules, that's when disciplinary action occurs. It's rarely what you say, it's how you say it. I'll just as quickly ban someone who's pro-BioWare who acts like an idiot and insults other posters as I will someone who's anti-BioWare.

As to the immediate - this is not a topic we're discussing in this thread. Full stop. I've brought it up once more because I felt it important to distinguish between 'I got banned because I said something negative' and 'I got banned because I broke the site rules, insulted a developer and happened to say something negative in the process.'

If you have problems with the way the site is moderated, as was previously mentioned - talk to Chris, or post it in Off-Topic. Not the thread for it.

[John Epler]

Alright, schythe1 and others, let's end this tangent. It's going around in never-ending circles.

[John Epler]

schythe1 wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Alright, schythe1 and others, let's end this tangent. It's going around in never-ending circles.

While that is true it is because of peopl's innability to understand what I was saying or assert that I said I was in support of the event.  I do not feel as though this is my fault or that I should be called out by name when no one else was.

Claryifying how they misinterpreted my view is not a tangent.

Again. Let's cut it out. No one's going to change their mind, and we've long since passed 'clarifying my point'.

[John Epler]

Folks, I really was serious about stopping the tangent with schythe1.

[Stanley Woo]

Some inappropriate posts removed.

[Stanley Woo]

Thorsman wrote...

It was an honest question, Stanley, and I want an answer.

To quote The Princess Bride: "Get used to disappointment."

[Stanley Woo]

Reptilian Rob, schythe1, take it to private or back to /v/. Where you choose to hang out online is off-topic for this discussion.

[Stanley Woo]

schythe1 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Reptilian Rob, schythe1, take it to private or back to /v/. Where you choose to hang out online is off-topic for this discussion.

understood

Also, please understand that this is strike 2 for you, as two separate Moderators have had to speak to you regarding your behaviour here. So please play nice. Thank you.

[Stanley Woo]

Eternal_Lord wrote...

It's pretty terrible what those people did and they should be ashamed of themselves but I also understand the frustration that these gamers are experiencing. I am in no way justifying or condoning what they did but Jennifer, and BioWare itself, deserves criticism for that comments that she's made about "skipping combat/gameplay." Video games are unique because of the interactive nature of the medium and adding options like skipping gameplay sections entirely defeats the whole purpose of being a video game and that's gameplay.

Perhaps Jennifer needs to find another hobby or job because it seems to me that she, and some of the folks at BioWare, are actually looking for a "choose you own adventure book" and not a video game.

Or, instead of suggesting everyone else find a different job so we're no longer in danger of making the kinds of games you don't want, how about you choosing for yourself to not purchase any BioWare game what appears to feature gameplay you don't care for? It would be much simpler and involve you choosing things for yourself, rather than suggesting what other people can or should do with their lives.

NOTE: At no time has BioWare or Electronic Arts marketed Dragon Age 2, Star Wars: The Old Republic, or the upcoming Mass Effect 3, as a "choose your own adventure book".

[Stanley Woo]

Guldhun2 wrote...

Jahannam wrote...

No, you can criticise all you want. Can you do it without being a jackass is the question.

No you can't. Not on the Bioware forums.

Even if people give well thought out arguments, they quickly get an avalanche of drones replying with the "No it's not, so it's not".

And those who want to post messages of support and positivity are quickly shouted down by those who need to have their say "just so BioWare won't think there are no problems with the game." So it evens out. All you want is fairness, right?

So how about both sides of the discussion allow the other some leeway to discuss their opinions, and both sides be more accepting of dissenting opinions? And you might start by not calling those who support BioWare "drones."

There, now we can all stop being jackasses, all right?

[Stanley Woo]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...
Meanwhile, the reddit and /v/ crew are talking about harassing another Bioware employee, namely David Gaider. If that happens, the common factor won't be gender, but will be Bioware.

The common factor is the people who are instigating and participating in organized online harassment of public figures whose only crime is to be a very visible employee of a company these troublemakers have decided to form a negative opinion of.

I think this has a lot more to do with the direction the company has taken in the past year or two than it does with anything Jennifer Hepler ever said or did.

Yes, because after you harass a company's employees online, they are more likely to create products that appeal to you. And these troublemakers can't be satisfied with, oh, I don't know, not purchasing a game from a company they don't like. No, they actually want the game but are disappointed with how the internet views the company and its products, so instead of doing without, they lash out in the hopes of getting attention. In my opinion, not a particularly good way of opening up a dialogue or persuading us to do anything for you.

Or, and I think this is more likely, people just like being able to cause trouble anonymously, covered by a large similiarly-minded group, with very little chance of any lasting consequences.

[Stanley Woo]

Off-topic discussions and some inappropriate comments removed. This is not a thread for individuals to get on soapboxes, or for extended debate on sociopolitical issues. This is also not a thread to criticize the direction of BioWare games or let us know what you think of Anders or same-sex relationships in games.

This thread was created to show our support for our friend and colleague, Jennifer Hepler, so let's try to keep it somewhat on topic, please. Thank you.

[Stanley Woo]

Silfren, seraphymon, please take your argument to private or to a different forum. It is becoming increasingly heated, off-topic, and unproductive.

[Stanley Woo]

Off-topic, combative, and somewhat insulting posts removed.

Silfren, I'm not going to ask you again to stop arguing around and around with those who disagree with you in this thread.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 27 février 2012 - 03:10 .

[Stanley Woo]

Silfren wrote...

I fail to see how asking why Hepler's response to her abusers is getting more attention from a lot of people than the abuse itself is combative, or insulting.  Nor was there anything off-topic in the post, unless you've only now decided that the entire discussion about such, which has gone on for pages, is suddenly off-topic.  But I'll comply.

Ah, and now I see that all those pages have now--only now--been removed.  Very well.

The "combative and insulting post" comment was separate from the "please stop fighting with people again, Silfren" comment. Sorry for the confusion.

[Stanley Woo]

Not that it has anything to do with our support for Jennifer, but the "attacks" against Mike were largely confined to the Dragon Age II forums and were of the sort one normally finds within internet forums. There was a lot of hate, much swearing and calls for his firing, but actual death threats, if any, were few and far between. Because it was limited to the forum, we were able to control the comments (or those making them) to a certain degree. His personal life, as far as I know, was unaffected, and the situation resolved itself a few weeks after Dragon Age II's release.

Threats against Ms. Hepler and her family occurred outside of these forums and were a concerted effort by some to be intentionally harmful. People have invaded her privacy, and from what I understand, have been going on for months. There is nothing "professional" about being subjected to that sort of abuse and behaviour for any length of time. Those who sink so low as to threaten, abuse, or otherwise malign our developers are no real fans of ours and should not expect to be dealt with the same courteous, professional manner in which we deal with our actual fans (both whose who agree and those who respectfully disagree with us) here in the community.

[John Epler]

Esquin wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Off-topic discussions and some inappropriate comments removed. This is not a thread for individuals to get on soapboxes, or for extended debate on sociopolitical issues. This is also not a thread to criticize the direction of BioWare games or let us know what you think of Anders or same-sex relationships in games.

This thread was created to show our support for our friend and colleague, Jennifer Hepler, so let's try to keep it somewhat on topic, please. Thank you.

And this is the problem.

A group who acted in a way that is without a doubt wrong in every single way has given this woman a free pass. Plenty of people in this topic already have shown this to be true. Any time someone makes a comment about Heplers opinions or beliefs on game development they are accused of trolling or bullying. 

So thanks to a group of children who couldn't act like adults, those of us who can give contrsuctive comments are no longer able to do so. Thats hardly fair.

There are numerous other places on the BSN where you can give this sort of feedback. However, if you focus it on the person as opposed to the work then, yes, it's not welcome.

Keep it specific to characters and arcs she's written, of course, and it's perfectly allowable. Like I said, though - keep the personal out of it.

[Stanley Woo]

Esquin wrote...

Of course bullying is wrong. But the reasons that inspired the bullying were real and genuine concerns.

Not an excuse for people's bad behaviour, and not a topic of discussion for this thread.

People had concerns about her gameplay ideas and the systems she might try to push for in future. Things that would be, in many peoples opinions, a bad more for the gaming industry. The things she was suggesting would separate gameplay and story. Destroying the integration of the 2. 

Not an excuse for people's bad behaviour, and not a topic of discussion for this thread.

Not to mention that many people just think she's a poor writer. 

Not an excuse for people's bad behaviour, and not a topic of discussion for this thread. Are you seeign a pattern?

I'm not condoning bullying. I'm just saying that to dismiss the reasons for peopels displeasure just because of the way a small group acted on it is short sighted. There are many of us who share the same displeasure at her beliefs and writing ability who are trying to convey those beliefs properly. We shouldn't be dismissed.

None of the concerns brought up during this time have been dismissed. They have been and will continue to be discussed in our Dragon Age II forum. We have not shut down discussion of people's concerns, nor has anyone on this forum been muffled or silenced if they have legitimate concerns and present them in a mature, civil manner.

The only dismissal we have given is the linking of these concerns to excuse people's bad behaviour, which we have said time and again we are not going to accept in this discussion thread. So please, you can discuss your legitimate concerns wtih Dragon Age II or BioWare's "direction" or what have you, freely in our DA2 forums. Just don't lump the bullying in with such discussion, and don't do it in this thread. Thank you.

[Stanley Woo]

Aydin Paladin wrote...
*snip*

The fact that you come into the thread so late and say what you say indicates that you have not read the many Moderator posts here defining what is and is not acceptable discussion for this thread. This point, however, is negated by my third point, below.

The fact that you parrot opinions that have been refuted, and are demonstrably false, indicates that you don't enjoy following rules.

The fact that you also make such a post knowing or suspecting it's going to get locked indicates that you wish to start trouble, but though you believe your post will be redacted or removed simply because it's critical of Jennifer and/or her opinions, it is in fact redacted because such discussion is not appropriate for this thread, as I and others have said several times now. Such discussion is already being held in one of the DA2 Registered User General Discussion forums, in a thread entitled http://social.biowar.../index/9388250] Hepler's Work in Dragon Age[/url].

Please don't use this thread as your soapbox again. Your opinions and ideas can be discussed elsewhere in our community. THank you.

[Stanley Woo]

We are taking steps to prevent people from doing something similar within our community, which is completely within our control. We can do nothing against those who choose to attack via other social networking, as we have no control over those. And most jurisdictions have laws against harassment, stalking, and uttering threats, so there is legal support as well.

I would encourage those outraged by the behaviour of a bunch of internet jerkfaces to stand up and be counted here in the BioWare Social Network. Due to the booming popularity of games of BioWare franchises like Mass Effect and Dragon Age, we have seen an influx of many new faces around here. Many of them are, like you, rational, civil, mature individuals who can articulate their dislike or disagreement without swearing, insulting, or using any objectionable language. I would encourage each and every one of you to assist us in monitoring our community and reporting (via private message) threads, posts, or users who are violating our Site Rules.

This isn't about tattling or narcing anyone out. It's about having an open, friendly community where we can disagree with each other without resorting to name-calling or insults. And if you love our community that much, heck, we may be looking for more Moderators in the future and we are always biased towards those known to be helpful, vigilant, and articulate in the forums.

[Stanley Woo]

hallfing wrote...

Maybe it would be better... if Bioware sat down and took both sides of the story seriously enough to actually realize the argument is not completely one sided... The "writer" in question did write a ridiculously funny opinion on gameplay  which openly invited trolls to engage in what has now been completely blown out of proportion thanks to idiots from reddit...

Not an excuse for harassment, stalking, threats, or invading someone's privacy. Point: Jennifer's side.

Which I really don't give a flying toss about, but... But If you were a writer and you said something about gaming that I know more about than you: not to mention the nature of said opinion, then you best prepare for some fiery comments from the actual gamers. None of which still justifies what people did to her on a personal level...

As you say, not an excuse for harassment, stalking, threats, or invading someone's privacy. Point: Jennifer's side.

But retaliation of that type only happens if a franchise or a developing company has some serious fans (a bit too serious to take gaming for what it is; pure engaging fun) that actually care what the developers are doing and the direction they are heading toward...

If that's what "fans" do, we don't want fans like that. Being passionate about something does not give someone a license to engage in harassment, stalking, uttering threats, or invading someone's privacy, particularly when the person they're harassing is a creator of the thing these people purportedly love. Point; Jennifer's side.

So, even though I do not support the extent those fools went to traumatize her... If she wants people to take her opinions seriously then she should be ready for the consequences as well...

Victim-blaming. Automatic point: Jennifer's side.

ONE DOES NOT SIMPLY "SKIP" GAMEPLAY!

Yes, one does. PC gamers have used BioWare's "killallhostiles" command to quickly end combats before, even back in the NEverwinter Nights days, when Ctrl-Y was the insta-kill button when cheating was turned on. One also consults online walkthroughs when one is having a difficult or frustrating time with combats or puzzles. One powerlevels characters in MMOs. One uses godmode or reduces the game's difficulty setting. One uses quick travel in sandbox games. One "simply skips gameplay" all the time. One just isn't all too concerned when one chooses to do it.

P.S - I do care enough about Bioware... so I'm going to have to say I disagree with the writer's opinion and also the morons that went overboard on this matter. But I hope she stays with Bioware and continues to write stories that are more in common with DA:O's epicness, than it's rather forgettable sequel.

Jennifer has given no indication that she plans on leaving BioWare, as far as I know, but I cannot speak for her.

So to calculate the score here, hallfing, I don't see any points for the "other side of the story," where somehow they were in the right to do something really douchey.

[John Epler]

This is not the thread for a discussion about gameplay versus story.

Let's end that tangent now, please.