1876 réponses à ce sujet

[Enduance XXVII]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Rintez wrote...

Thats it, I'm done, peace.  Nobody can seriously believe that criticisms are rendered invalid because they werent also being nice while saying them.  Its asinine and insulting.  That being said, Hepler, as previously stated, didn't exactly try to calm it down, she stoked the fires.  Not to mention another BioWare employee telling someone on twitter they were a "****ing moron."  This'll probably get removed, oh well.

Criticisms are rendered invalid when they come from someone who can do nothing else but attack a person viciously and personally.  

So, bye.

If only this were true but it's not.

[Stanley Woo]

Blastback wrote...
Not simply because they were not polite, but because they singled out a single target and refused to treat her with the inherint respect and dignity that she deserves as a human being.  Plenty of posters, myself included, have criticised DA2 and Bioware's recent direction.  We've found honest fault with it.  But we've never gone out of our way to strip anyone at Bioware of their dignity.   We've tried to approach them with the utmost respect and love.  Do we sometimes fall short?  Sure.  But we apologise and try to avoid letting it happen again.  So hopefully, our opinions are worth hearing.  Anything expressed in hatered is not.

Thank you for that, Blastback. That's the kind of communication we should all endeavour to have, with everyone.

[Imported_beer]

Rintez wrote...
Wait, are you saying that even if the critics are right its irrelevant because they weren't polite about it?

If someone wants their criticism to be heard, it helps if they don't come across as frothing in the mouth crazy and engage in personal attacks that could be seen as threats. 

Someone who expressed their concern about Jennifer's comments is not the problem. I personally think it is a bit silly to hold something someone said five years ago to be the root cause of what you are satisfied with today, but hey...it is healthy to question. It is healthy to criticize. The problem is people who engaged in all sorts of harrassment. 

It is a game. She didn't kill someone's child or molest their boyfriend. There was no excuse for some people to get personal and threateningly aggressive about it, and no excuse if they got all hurt when she responded. It had been going on for months before she said anything and honestly, that is more patience than a lot of people have after such sustained, repeated personal harrassment. And there is absolutely no excuse for people who think that if there was a grain of criticism in it, it was justified for them to have engaged in such kind of cyber thuggery.

The sad part is a vocal, misbehaved minority acts like this, and then tell me who will even want to come to a place like this? If I am going to be harrassed, what motivation would I as a writer, or an artist, have to come here and engage in dialogue with those who play the games I have helped create. Their harrassment doesn't just cause employees to treat this place as a potential mine field, consumers  with legitimate concerns and criticism who do not have to resort to calling someone at home, or encouraging suicide lose their chance to be heard as well.

[Enduance XXVII]

XX55XX wrote...

I didn't find out about this whole fiasco until a few hours ago. 

I don't agree with Ms. Hepler's views nor her methodology on writing (She thinks Twilight is awesome? Ugh.), but at the same time, this vitriol is completely uncalled for and whoever did this crap should be ashamed of themselves. 

At any rate, I will say that everyone is a tough guy behind a screenname and a keyboard. 

Including Hepler with her I have a vag comments. Garunteed If a guy said I have a p*****, your just jealous he would be fired the next day.

[A Fusing Shade]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Shoemaster wrote...

I have no support for cheer me up loli-pop time. She didn't deserve personal spiteful comments, but it should be noted bioware that something should change. Suppressing opinions and moving towards a broader market has a good number of previous hardcore fans at arms. It's gotten to this point, do you really want people to take it farther?

Broader marketing isn't the way to go. Not with passionate fans like this.

So... make games for our ("our" being very vague here) tastes or we'll be even bigger jerks to your employees in the future? Your negotiation tactics need some work. That sounds more like extortion than a request.

Please don't threaten us.

I believe he was trying to make reference to Biowares previous and past titles having a certain magic to them compared to todays titles where skipping cutscenes and conversations is an accepted practise.

I do not think he was threatening you, Stanely. 

[ScottishMartialArts]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Criticisms are rendered invalid when they come from someone who can do nothing else but attack a person viciously and personally.  

So, bye.

So the character of the speaker trumps the merits of the speaker's arguments? Okay....

[Shoemaster]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Shoemaster wrote...

I have no support for cheer me up loli-pop time. She didn't deserve personal spiteful comments, but it should be noted bioware that something should change. Suppressing opinions and moving towards a broader market has a good number of previous hardcore fans at arms. It's gotten to this point, do you really want people to take it farther?

Broader marketing isn't the way to go. Not with passionate fans like this.

They should respond by continuing to support the behaviors of privileged gamers?

You might as well have put "OR ELSE" at the end of your post.

I'll I am saying is that when you start to ignore the people that rose you up, tension will rise. It's like a friend whose gotten too popular for you. And then tries to make everyone happy even though it's nearly impossible to do. They had a a real strong demograph back then, and it brought them so much. It would be nice to see new IPs still catering to that audience, because some of us will not get it with these sequels.

[WhiteKnyght]

Perhaps Bioware should add the feature Jennifer Hepler described just to spite the critics.

I personally disagree with Hepler's view on gaming, but she's entitled to her opinion and those who dislike the feature don't have to use it. A story with a lot of fighting and action is incomplete without combat and gameplay. In a roleplaying sense, it completes it. But that doesn't justify disgusting and racial slurs towards someone.

Although a feature like that would have it uses even to people like me. Being able to skip over the one battle in a game that I've done before and I loathe because it's too annoying and hard in any setting and hinders my progress, and then play everything else as normal would have it's appeal.

[AtreiyaN7]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Criticisms are rendered invalid when they come from someone who can do nothing else but attack a person viciously and personally.  

So, bye.

So the character of the speaker trumps the merits of the speaker's arguments? Okay....

There is no merit when a person can only spout hate-filled speech instead of voicing their opinion in a sane and rational manner. Why should I have to pay attention to it or even listen to it? The last thing I want is to waste my time reading something by an internet bully who thinks that calling people names is a way to get their point across.

[Blastback]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Criticisms are rendered invalid when they come from someone who can do nothing else but attack a person viciously and personally.  

So, bye.

So the character of the speaker trumps the merits of the speaker's arguments? Okay....

There is no merit when a person can only spout hate-filled speech instead of voicing their opinion in a sane and rational manner. Why should I have to pay attention to it or even listen to it? The last thing I want is to waste my time reading something by an internet bully who thinks that calling people names is a way to get their point across.

Blastback Approves +100

[Bladefist_01]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Perhaps Bioware should add the feature Jennifer Hepler described just to spite the critics.

Because, you know, antagonizing those people couldn't POSSIBLY backfire in ANY way POSSIBLE.

[Mikeuicus]

It's deplorable what depths people will sink to when granted anonymity via the internet.

[XX55XX]

The sad part is a vocal, misbehaved minority acts like this, and then tell me who will even want to come to a place like this? If I am going to be harrassed, what motivation would I as a writer, or an artist, have to come here and engage in dialogue with those who play the games I have helped create. Their harrassment doesn't just cause employees to treat this place as a potential mine field, consumers with legitimate concerns and criticism who do not have to resort to calling someone at home, or encouraging suicide lose their chance to be heard as well.

Oh, I think more than just a small vocal minority does this. People will troll and flame because there isn't anyone who will go up to them in person and tell them to apologize. People do it because it makes them feel powerful and, plus, it's easy to get away with.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Hamboigahhelpa wrote...

[inappropriate quote removed]

Erm... This community is full of critics. BW was not happy with many of us after the game was released. Yet, BW allowed that to be posted. So, it is not about BW not being willing to tolerate critique nor the community kissing their behind. In this case the problem is the way in which critique was delivered. The bullying, personal attacks and insults went too far. I wrote many posts with critique, but I can't remember that I felt her writing abilities were a problem. But  assume that I did, then I am sure that insulting her would not make my point valid and nor do I think that BW would be willing to listen to it. It would be very counterproductive, to say the least.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 22 février 2012 - 02:05 .

[jesuno]

Enduance XXVII wrote...

Both sides are wrong.

This right here. While I did find Hepler and Flynn's comments unprofessional, they were nothing that earned the death threat calls to her residence. But, the other side is just as bad right now. Case in point, on of the individuals that got one of Flynn's retorts on twitter is now suffering from death threat phone calls and having his wife and children threatened. The biggest cause is that he was singled out on Destructoid's article, and after apologizing (pre-article), he has asked destructoid to remove the links, they refuse.

Do, Bioware, how about turning the other cheek, being the better person (company?) and say something on his behalf?

[Passionaticus]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Shoemaster wrote...

I have no support for cheer me up loli-pop time. She didn't deserve personal spiteful comments, but it should be noted bioware that something should change. Suppressing opinions and moving towards a broader market has a good number of previous hardcore fans at arms. It's gotten to this point, do you really want people to take it farther?

Broader marketing isn't the way to go. Not with passionate fans like this.

So... make games for our ("our" being very vague here) tastes or we'll be even bigger jerks to your employees in the future? Your negotiation tactics need some work. That sounds more like extortion than a request.

Please don't threaten us.

Yes, its either this or denounce your hardcore RPG legacy in a public declaration. Tell people that they should not expect any more successors to Baldurs Gate, People are tired of this two-facedness, and with such attitude of both sides its only going to get worse. The only side who can change their attitude in this situation is Bioware.

[ScottishMartialArts]

There is no merit when a person can only spout hate-filled speech
instead of voicing their opinion in a sane and rational manner. Why
should I have to pay attention to it or even listen to it? The last
thing I want is to waste my time reading something by an internet bully
who thinks that calling people names is a way to get their point across.

Read Demosthenes' Phillipics. Sometimes tough talk is exactly what's needed to get a point across. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying what happened to Hepler was right. But it's very silly to say that you can prejudge an argument on the basis of how you feel about the speaker.

Modifié par ScottishMartialArts, 22 février 2012 - 02:05 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

So the character of the speaker trumps the merits of the speaker's arguments? Okay....

Yes.  It does.  When one has their criticisms but resorts to mudslinging and vicious harrassment, it doesn't matter how valid their argument might be.  You can criticize someone without attacking them personally.

Valid: I do not like Hepler's writing.
Not Valid: She's the cancer that is ruining Bioware and she is fat and ugly and etc.

[Costin_Razvan]

There was no excuse for some people to get personal and threateningly aggressive about it, and no excuse if they got all hurt when she responded.

What about those who didn't care what Hepler's personal opinions were on gaming, who did not take part in the flame fest on twitter, email spam, phonecalls at home stuff against her but didn't like her writing.

Tell me how should these people feel when called homophobes and sexists because they just dislike her writing? 

 
Valid: I do not like Hepler's writing.

Hepler called everyone who disliked her writing sexist and homophobic. How exactly should people feel about that when they had no role in the flame war on twitter, or e-mail spam etc.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 février 2012 - 02:07 .

[Aggie Punbot]

Can we all agree that Ms. Hepler's actual ability is irrelevant? The issue here is about respect, people. You may not agree with how someone does their job but you have no right to treat anyone with the amount of disrespect and hatefulness that Ms. Hepler has received. I am so embarrassed to call myself a gamer right now.

Jennifer Hepler, Aaryn Flynn, you are both wonderful. Keep on doing your thing.

[ref]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

There was no excuse for some people to get personal and threateningly aggressive about it, and no excuse if they got all hurt when she responded.

What about those who didn't care what Hepler's personal opinions were on gaming, who did not take part in the flame fest on twitter, email spam, phonecalls at home stuff against her but didn't like her writing.

Tell me how should these people feel when called homophobes and sexists because they just dislike her writing?

+1

[AtreiyaN7]

Bladefist_01 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Perhaps Bioware should add the feature Jennifer Hepler described just to spite the critics.

Because, you know, antagonizing those people couldn't POSSIBLY backfire in ANY way POSSIBLE.

It's a great idea because if it's properly executed, all their heads will explode once they hit thermonuclear levels of anger. It will save us all a lot of trouble.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 
Valid: I do not like Hepler's writing.

Hepler called everyone who disliked her writing sexist and homophobic. How exactly should people feel about that when they had no role in the flame war on twitter, or e-mail spam etc.

Perhaps the vast majority of people need to come up with better reasons beyond "Anders was all gay on me."

[syllogi]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Criticisms are rendered invalid when they come from someone who can do nothing else but attack a person viciously and personally.  

So, bye.

So the character of the speaker trumps the merits of the speaker's arguments? Okay....

In this case the speakers couldn't even be bothered to notice that the quotes that are so contentious were picked from a 2006 interview that isn't even online anymore (so there's no context), and the photoshopped quote that a bunch of people got up in arms about is completely fake.  A two minute trip to Google would prove that.

Even *if* the speakers in this case weren't a bunch of reactionary ignorant bullies, what they have been doing does actually trump the merits of their arguments.  Even though they're so confused, they have no idea what their arguments are.

[upsettingshorts]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tell me how should these people feel when called homophobes and sexists because they just dislike her writing?

If that's all that was going on, this entire thread wouldn't exist.

Those people shouldn't be doing it in a thread explicitly about homophobic and sexist mistreatment of the individual in question.  Take it to another thread, handle yourselves like adults, and nobody will call you names.  They might still disagree, though.