1876 réponses à ce sujet

[leggywillow]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Criticisms are rendered invalid when they come from someone who can do nothing else but attack a person viciously and personally.  

So, bye.

So the character of the speaker trumps the merits of the speaker's arguments? Okay....

Um... yes?  I don't understand why this is such a new and foreign concept to some people.  Apparently quite a few people don't understand the difference between "blunt and even scathing criticism" and "making personal attacks and being a hopeless dick".  There is a difference, I promise you.

For one thing I've yet to read any valid criticism or arguments against Hepler that isn't a personal attack.  The closest thing I've seen is "I don't like her writing", and even then they're just presenting an opinion as a fact.

[Costin_Razvan]

 
Perhaps the vast majority of people need to come up with better reasons beyond "Anders was all gay on me." 

Sure. How about the fact that Anders was a very reasonable, sensible level headed mage who became completely irrational in DA2? That's my issue with Anders.

 
f that's all that was going on, this entire thread wouldn't exist. 

Ofc that's not all that's going on right here, but if you think it's a minor issue people shouldn't give a damn about, well you've got that wrong.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 février 2012 - 02:11 .

[XX55XX]

jesuno wrote...

Enduance XXVII wrote...

Both sides are wrong.

This right here. While I did find Hepler and Flynn's comments unprofessional, they were nothing that earned the death threat calls to her residence. But, the other side is just as bad right now. Case in point, on of the individuals that got one of Flynn's retorts on twitter is now suffering from death threat phone calls and having his wife and children threatened. The biggest cause is that he was singled out on Destructoid's article, and after apologizing (pre-article), he has asked destructoid to remove the links, they refuse.

Do, Bioware, how about turning the other cheek, being the better person (company?) and say something on his behalf?

That guy started it. 

You reap what you sow. Hopefully this guy learns better next time. 

[ScottishMartialArts]

RinjiRenee wrote...

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

So the character of the speaker trumps the merits of the speaker's arguments? Okay....

Yes.  It does.  When one has their criticisms but resorts to mudslinging and vicious harrassment, it doesn't matter how valid their argument might be. 

You are aware that the conclusion of you're line of reasoning is that we don't have to listen to people we don't like, right? Since when is that in the spirit of openmindedness and the exchange of ideas?

[Stanley Woo]

Let's keep it on topic, please.

[krenath01]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Rintez wrote...

Hey mods, can you please address why this particular post was edited in this manner? It's been asked twice and hasn't been replied to yet, I'm eager to hear an explanation.

http://images.4chan....29864964011.jpg

You want to know why? Because your justification is no justification, and you hardly need a mod to tell you that. You also, given what you wrote (with the childish insults thrown in and claims of Orwellian control), probably don't deserve a response from anyone official anyway.

Just came across the situation due to a post on game spot about it and I have to agree with what various people have stated that the personal attacks are deplorable also reviewed the details lin the linked article and I have to agree with what AtreiyaN7 stated. The queries attempted to be raised don't need to be addressed by an official. Bioware have always produced games where the storyline is one of the key elements to their games. It's one of the reasons I personaly am a massive fan of theirs and have been since before the split from Black Isle. As I'm sure everone would know they produce role playing games, which are interactive stories, yes I enjoy the combat in their games as for the most part it enhances the game play but the primary reason I play them is for the story. If I want a game where its almost entirely action over story I'll play a game like battlefield or any of the call of duty series on multyplayer against others.

If you think that they're doing a bad job have a crack at writing a game and getting others to play it, there are many actual pen and paper rpgs out there if you think you can do things better than the writers at Bioware, I would challange you to try choosing one and writing even a scinario that appeals to a large audience.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Sure. How about the fact that Anders was a very reasonable, sensible level headed mage who became completely irrational in DA2? That's my issue with Anders.

Well she cannot help the fact that you didn't understand Anders at all or the nuances of the character.  Or that you didn't read the short story that she wrote that helped explain all that.

But does anyone actually believe that she alone was responsible for the direction of Anders's character?  Really?

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 22 février 2012 - 02:12 .

[syllogi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tell me how should these people feel when called homophobes and sexists because they just dislike her writing?

If that's all that was going on, this entire thread wouldn't exist.

Those people shouldn't be doing it in a thread explicitly about homophobic and sexist mistreatment of the individual in question.  Take it to another thread, handle yourselves like adults, and nobody will call you names.  They might still disagree, though.

FYI, the person you're quoting said that he wished Jennifer Hepler would be physically attacked in another thread a few days ago.  Just because his post was deleted doesn't make it go away.

So I'm playing a tiny, tiny violin for his whining.

[leggywillow]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Sure. How about the fact that Anders was a very reasonable, sensible level headed mage who became completely irrational in DA2? That's my issue with Anders.

Okay.  So she developed a character in a direction that you did not like.  Sorry?  That's an opinion.  I personally think that the seeds of Anders' transformation were scattered all over Awakening and given what happened with Justice I found his change in DA2 to be a perfectly reasonable direction to take the character.  Many people agree with me, and many people agree with you.  Opinions: not facts.

[jesuno]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 
Valid: I do not like Hepler's writing.

Hepler called everyone who disliked her writing sexist and homophobic. How exactly should people feel about that when they had no role in the flame war on twitter, or e-mail spam etc.

Perhaps the vast majority of people need to come up with better reasons beyond "Anders was all gay on me."

So changing Ander's character = hating gays? No, it was more about pulling a reverse Mitra.

[upsettingshorts]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

So the character of the speaker trumps the merits of the speaker's arguments? Okay....

Yes.  It does.  When one has their criticisms but resorts to mudslinging and vicious harrassment, it doesn't matter how valid their argument might be. 

You are aware that the conclusion of you're line of reasoning is that we don't have to listen to people we don't like, right? Since when is that in the spirit of openmindedness and the exchange of ideas?

You don't have to listen to anybody. 

Especially when they give you no reason to, such as treating you with a minimal amount of respect.

Finally, in this context taking the position that Hepler's critics - specifically the ones being denounced by this thread - were engaging in anything remotely resembling a spirit of openmindness and free exchange of ideas is transparently disingenuous.  

In short, your strawman isn't fooling anybody.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 février 2012 - 02:16 .

[AtreiyaN7]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

There is no merit when a person can only spout hate-filled speech
instead of voicing their opinion in a sane and rational manner. Why
should I have to pay attention to it or even listen to it? The last
thing I want is to waste my time reading something by an internet bully
who thinks that calling people names is a way to get their point across.

Read Demosthenes' Phillipics. Sometimes tough talk is exactly what's needed to get a point across. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying what happened to Hepler was right. But it's very silly to say that you can prejudge an argument on the basis of how you feel about the speaker.

You failed to quote me properly, and you're missing my point. These individuals might have valid criticisms buried within their vitriol, but I don't want to listen to their crap or validate their behavior. I will ignore them if they behave disrespectfully and/or launch major salvos of sarcasm at them if I do deign to respond.

I simply refuse to engage them on a serious level if they can't act like adults in the first place. I wish them luck if they think calling people idiots and insulting them on a daily basis works. And I'd very much like to see them try that at work (assuming that they have jobs) and see how voicing their criticisms of company policies and/or their coworkers' work performance goes.

[Imported_beer]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

What about those who didn't care what Hepler's personal opinions were on gaming, who did not take part in the flame fest on twitter, email spam, phonecalls at home stuff against her but didn't like her writing.

Tell me how should these people feel when called homophobes and sexists because they just dislike her writing?

That is equally stupid. Let me give a fake example.

Suppose I come here everyday, and see a small minority engage in some seriously sexist talk. They go around saying gaming is for men, and demand every female friendly attribute in the game be cut in favor of hyper macho elements.  I see this a lot and I get defensive.Then you come along and have a legitimate, well argued, rational criticism with some gender overtones. It is not unnatural if my defensiveness towards those other people taint my opinion of your words. That to me is a loss for the community because if I am constantly on the defensive, I become just as volatile as those who contributed to my defensiveness. It does not excuse my behavior in any way to dismiss a rational argument, and if I called you a homophobe even if your dislike of an element had nothing to do with bigotry, I am no better than those who went around making blanket assertions of Bioware and Jennifer pandering to the gay agenda.

Bottom line- I don't think criticism should ever be based around personal attacks. I don't think criticism should ever be responded to by personal attacks either.

[Rinji the Bearded]

jesuno wrote...

So changing Ander's character = hating gays? No, it was more about pulling a reverse Mitra.

Once again, I will ask:  Does anyone actually think that Hepler alone was responsible for the direction of Anders's character?

And yes, Anders did change.  People tend to change during traumatic events.

[ref]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Sure. How about the fact that Anders was a very reasonable, sensible level headed mage who became completely irrational in DA2? That's my issue with Anders.

Well she cannot help the fact that you didn't understand Anders at all or the nuances of the character.  Or that you didn't read the short story that she wrote that helped explain all that.

But does anyone actually believe that she alone was responsible for the direction of Anders's character?  Really?

Oh, so you're saying all the people who didn't like Anders in DA2 was not "smart" enough to understand the direction of Anders character in DA2?

I assure you, that is not the case.

[ScottishMartialArts]

syllogi wrote...
Even *if* the speakers in this case weren't a bunch of reactionary ignorant bullies, what they have been doing does actually trump the merits of their arguments.  Even though they're so confused, they have no idea what their arguments are.

I've made the point elsewhere but I'll make it again here: rejecting an argument because you don't like the speaker is a very slippery slope.

[Costin_Razvan]

leggywillow wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Sure. How about the fact that Anders was a very reasonable, sensible level headed mage who became completely irrational in DA2? That's my issue with Anders.

Okay.  So she developed a character in a direction that you did not like.  Sorry?  That's an opinion.  I personally think that the seeds of Anders' transformation were scattered all over Awakening and given what happened with Justice I found his change in DA2 to be a perfectly reasonable direction to take the character.  Many people agree with me, and many people agree with you.  Opinions: not facts.

Yes it's an opinion, an opinion over which one shouldn't be called the way Hepler did.

[jesuno]

XX55XX wrote...

jesuno wrote...

Enduance XXVII wrote...

Both sides are wrong.

This right here. While I did find Hepler and Flynn's comments unprofessional, they were nothing that earned the death threat calls to her residence. But, the other side is just as bad right now. Case in point, on of the individuals that got one of Flynn's retorts on twitter is now suffering from death threat phone calls and having his wife and children threatened. The biggest cause is that he was singled out on Destructoid's article, and after apologizing (pre-article), he has asked destructoid to remove the links, they refuse.

Do, Bioware, how about turning the other cheek, being the better person (company?) and say something on his behalf?

That guy started it. 

You reap what you sow. Hopefully this guy learns better next time. 

So, it is not ok for her to receive threats after what she posted, but it is for him. Logic, denied.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Refara wrote...

Oh, so you're saying all the people who didn't like Anders in DA2 was not "smart" enough to understand the direction of Anders character in DA2?

I assure you, that is not the case.

Actually, it is.  Made perfect sense to me.  Made perfect sense to a lot of people I know.  And I was a fan of Anders from the beginning.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 22 février 2012 - 02:16 .

[A Fusing Shade]

This thread serves no positive purpose.

If anything, the original post should have been locked to allow the community notice of the events that have transpired and Biowares reaction to it. Allowing posters to add their own thoughts (while I understand the reasoning behind it, I am sure many members of the community wishes Jennifer well after this little incident, however - ) has only caused the morally rigid to defend a position they have do not have complete understanding of, and the morally loose to simply stir the pot and cause more trouble.

Literally, people within this thread seem to be guarding against nothing. There are no enemies at the gate.

Talking down to each other like they are at fault or are the perpetrators, refusing to understand someone else's point because that means they are right(!), Bioware employees showing an aggressive reply to a mundane post and people barking in the dark about subjects that have nothing to do with what is at hand, simply so that they may feel that they have done right this day should not constitute a thread.


Both parties are guilty of some wrongdoing. It should not be allowed to flourish any further.

Modifié par A Fusing Shade, 22 février 2012 - 02:18 .

[Aggie Punbot]

I don't even care if she was the one responsible for Anders's change in character.

[ref]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Refara wrote...

Oh, so you're saying all the people who didn't like Anders in DA2 was not "smart" enough to understand the direction of Anders character in DA2?

I assure you, that is not the case.

Actually, it is.  Made perfect sense to me.  Made perfect sense to a lot of people I know.  And I was a fan of Anders from the beginning.

This just in, only smart people think Anders is well written in Dragon Age 2, you heard it here first.

All the people who disliked Anders in DA2 is just stupid, a hater or a troll.

Modifié par Refara, 22 février 2012 - 02:19 .

[syllogi]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

syllogi wrote...
Even *if* the speakers in this case weren't a bunch of reactionary ignorant bullies, what they have been doing does actually trump the merits of their arguments.  Even though they're so confused, they have no idea what their arguments are.

I've made the point elsewhere but I'll make it again here: rejecting an argument because you don't like the speaker is a very slippery slope.

And you didn't quote the part of my post that mentions that the arguments that rightfully should be rejected are faulty.  The 2006 interview is not online, so the quotes they pulled are meaningless.   The photoshopped forum quote is in fact a photoshopped fake quote.

So what are these arguments you're so worried about?  These are people wishing death on someone for views they may not hold at all.  And even if she does, no, their arguments would not be valid because of the way they are expressing themselves.

[Blastback]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Refara wrote...

Oh, so you're saying all the people who didn't like Anders in DA2 was not "smart" enough to understand the direction of Anders character in DA2?

I assure you, that is not the case.

Actually, it is.  Made perfect sense to me.  Made perfect sense to a lot of people I know.  And I was a fan of Anders from the beginning.

Whoa, let's not go making blanket statments like that.  I didn't care for Ander's evolution either.  Sure it made sense, but that doesn't mean that it's something I have to like. And me not liking it doesn't make me any less intelligent than anyone else.

We're trying to stay respectful of other people's opinions here, remember?

[CaptainChip]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Refara wrote...

Oh, so you're saying all the people who didn't like Anders in DA2 was not "smart" enough to understand the direction of Anders character in DA2?

I assure you, that is not the case.

Actually, it is.  Made perfect sense to me.  Made perfect sense to a lot of people I know.  And I was a fan of Anders from the beginning.

So you're insulting the intelligence of those who disagree with how Anders was written?

I find that mean. Your argument is invalid.