1876 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

This just in, only smart people think Anders is well written in Dragon Age 2, you heard it here first.

It wasn't even relevant to my point, I said why I disliked Anders. That people don't agree with me is all well and good.

What is not good is to be called a homophobe and sexist because you dislike that. Or dislike Elthina or Leandra and the other characters/situations she wrote.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 février 2012 - 02:21 .

[leggywillow]

Refara wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
Well she cannot help the fact that you didn't understand Anders at all or the nuances of the character.  Or that you didn't read the short story that she wrote that helped explain all that.

But does anyone actually believe that she alone was responsible for the direction of Anders's character?  Really?

Oh, so you're saying all the people who didn't like Anders in DA2 was not "smart" enough to understand the direction of Anders character in DA2?

I assure you, that is not the case.

It's more an issue of distinguishing between "bad writing" and "character development that I personally did not enjoy".  They are not the same.

[jesuno]

RinjiRenee wrote...

jesuno wrote...

So changing Ander's character = hating gays? No, it was more about pulling a reverse Mitra.

Once again, I will ask:  Does anyone actually think that Hepler alone was responsible for the direction of Anders's character?

And yes, Anders did change.  People tend to change during traumatic events.

Gaider probably had to ok it, but she put her name to his story. Internet sees "I wrote Anders" and that is where the hate goes. And sorry, I know know gays and straights that have been through traumatic events in their lives, but none have changed their sexuality because of it.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Refara wrote...
This just in, only smart people think Anders is well written in Dragon Age 2, you heard it here first.

All the people who disliked Anders in DA2 is just stupid, a hater or a troll.

I don't care if you say he's not well-written, that's an opinion.  However, saying that his character was changed out of nowhere is an incorrect statement.

[AtreiyaN7]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

syllogi wrote...
Even *if* the speakers in this case weren't a bunch of reactionary ignorant bullies, what they have been doing does actually trump the merits of their arguments.  Even though they're so confused, they have no idea what their arguments are.

I've made the point elsewhere but I'll make it again here: rejecting an argument because you don't like the speaker is a very slippery slope.

Not really. Individuals have no obligation to listen to others who we can't/don't respect, no matter how you want to spin it.

[Bombe]

Criticism is one thing, abuse and bullying is something completely different. It's sad that these disgusting human beings don't seem to realise this fact. There is no excuse for what they have done and said. These people do not deserve an ounce of your time. I really hope Jennifer can move past this and isn't soured against all of the fanbase out there. We aren't all animals! We all appreciate how hard you all work and how much heart you all put into your productions.
Good on you, Bioware, for standing up for your employees.

[Dave of Canada]

I ask again, why couldn't she have made her twitter private rather than make matters worse by restoring to an insult herself? It only made matters worse, including Aaron Flynn's reactions which didn't help the matter at all.

I don't support what happened to Hepler, though the entire back-and-forth insults between both sides didn't help anything but make it worse.

[ref]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Refara wrote...
This just in, only smart people think Anders is well written in Dragon Age 2, you heard it here first.

All the people who disliked Anders in DA2 is just stupid, a hater or a troll.

I don't care if you say he's not well-written, that's an opinion.  However, saying that his character was changed out of nowhere is an incorrect statement.

When did I ever say that? I simply said I didn't think Anders was written well in DA2, the transformation doesn't bother me, I believe it could have been explored and written much better. That's my opinion, please stop making up stuff I said.

[waiting4codot]

 I'm sorry to hear about what happened to Ms. Hepler. There's no excuse for it, and the parties involved should be ashamed of themselves for their behaviour.

I'm so embarrassed to be a gamer right now, and seeing people arguing in this forum thread only exacerbates this.

[Stanley Woo]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I ask again, why couldn't she have made her twitter private rather than make matters worse by restoring to an insult herself? It only made matters worse, including Aaron Flynn's reactions which didn't help the matter at all.

I don't support what happened to Hepler, though the entire back-and-forth insults between both sides didn't help anything but make it worse.

Why couldn't some people have left comments made in a 6 year old interview alone? we could question the past all we like, but we have to deal with the present in order to make our future a better one, Dave.

[leggywillow]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

leggywillow wrote...
Okay.  So she developed a character in a direction that you did not like.  Sorry?  That's an opinion.  I personally think that the seeds of Anders' transformation were scattered all over Awakening and given what happened with Justice I found his change in DA2 to be a perfectly reasonable direction to take the character.  Many people agree with me, and many people agree with you.  Opinions: not facts.

Yes it's an opinion, an opinion over which one shouldn't be called the way Hepler did.

Seeing as Hepler was the one who was (personally and shockingly) attacked first, this comes across as someone being sad that a dog bit them after kicking the dog for ten minutes.  Poor you?  Sorry if I can't find any sympathy for Hepler's attackers.

[upsettingshorts]

Refara wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Refara wrote...

Oh, so you're saying all the people who didn't like Anders in DA2 was not "smart" enough to understand the direction of Anders character in DA2?

I assure you, that is not the case.

Actually, it is.  Made perfect sense to me.  Made perfect sense to a lot of people I know.  And I was a fan of Anders from the beginning.

This just in, only smart people think Anders is well written in Dragon Age 2, you heard it here first.

All the people who disliked Anders in DA2 is just stupid, a hater or a troll.

This just in:  You are building a strawman.

The place for being critical of Anders' direction in Dragon Age 2 is the Anders' thread, not a thread denouncing vitriolic personal attacks on Jennifer Hepler.

An honest critique would not have such a myopic focus. 

[XX55XX]

A Fusing Shade wrote...

This thread serves no positive purpose.

If anything, the original post should have been locked to allow the community notice of the events that have transpired and Biowares reaction to it. Allowing posters to add their own thoughts (while I understand the reasoning behind it, I am sure many members of the community wishes Jennifer well after this little incident, however - ) has only caused the morally rigid to defend a position they have do not have complete understanding of, and the morally loose to simply stir the pot and cause more trouble.

Literally, people within this thread seem to be guarding against nothing. There are no enemies at the gate.

Talking down to each other like they are at fault or are the perpetrators, refusing to understand someone else's point because that means they are right(!), Bioware employees showing an aggressive reply to a mundane post and people barking in the dark about subjects that have nothing to do with what is at hand, simply so that they may feel that they have done right this day should not constitute a thread.


Both parties are guilty of some wrongdoing. It should not be allowed to flourish any further.

I disagree with this assessment. Not only does this open thread allow us to wish Ms. Hepler well and condemn the mob that has been verbally attacking her, it also allows us to discuss the appropriate standards for criticism. 

I didn't like how Ms. Hepler wrote Anders. Nor do I share her antipathy for video games. But, unlike some hotheads who spend too much time at the office trolling the Internet, I don't attack people just because they ruined my game.

And yes - there are no barbarians at the gate, I know. But we must condemn this behavior because it isn't productive for future discourse between the fans and BioWare. Furthermore, standards should be set, and respect between both parties restored.

Furthermore, BioWare should allow more constructive criticism of Ms. Hepler to flourish. They shouldn't lock the threads. It reflects poorly on them. 

Modifié par XX55XX, 22 février 2012 - 02:25 .

[Stanley Woo]

Indeed, let's take discussion of Anders as a character to the appropriate threads. Thank you.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

So the character of the speaker trumps the merits of the speaker's arguments? Okay....

Yes.  It does.  When one has their criticisms but resorts to mudslinging and vicious harrassment, it doesn't matter how valid their argument might be.

You are aware that the conclusion of you're line of reasoning is that we don't have to listen to people we don't like, right? Since when is that in the spirit of openmindedness and the exchange of ideas?

You don't have to listen to anybody. 

Especially when they give you no reason to, such as treating you with a minimal amount of respect.

Finally, in this context taking the position that Hepler's critics - specifically the ones being denounced by this thread - were engaging in anything remotely resembling a spirit of openmindness and free exchange of ideas is transparently disingenuous.  

In short, your strawman isn't fooling anybody.

This is an interesting thread. For the first time ever I agree with Upsettingshorts. Ghehe.

[ref]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Refara wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Refara wrote...

Oh, so you're saying all the people who didn't like Anders in DA2 was not "smart" enough to understand the direction of Anders character in DA2?

I assure you, that is not the case.

Actually, it is.  Made perfect sense to me.  Made perfect sense to a lot of people I know.  And I was a fan of Anders from the beginning.

This just in, only smart people think Anders is well written in Dragon Age 2, you heard it here first.

All the people who disliked Anders in DA2 is just stupid, a hater or a troll.

This just in:  You are building a strawman.

The place for being critical of Anders' direction in Dragon Age 2 is the Anders' thread, not a thread denouncing vitriolic personal attacks on Jennifer Hepler.

An honest critique would not have such a myopic focus. 

People, I was being sarcastic when I said:  " This just in, only smart people think Anders is well written in Dragon Age 2, you heard it here first. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie]"

"All the people who disliked Anders in DA2 is just stupid, a hater or a troll. " in response to someone saying that only smart people can understand Anders in DA2 and the people that don't like this character are stupid.

Anyways, my opinion still remains that Anders was poorly written and explored in DA2, and that I don't agree with being called a sexist or a homophobe just because of my opinion based on Hepler's writing ability and nothing more.

She doesn't deserve the attacks, but neither do people who simply have an opinion on her writing as a whole.

Modifié par Refara, 22 février 2012 - 02:28 .

[bsphil]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I ask again, why couldn't she have made her twitter private rather than make matters worse by restoring to an insult herself? It only made matters worse, including Aaron Flynn's reactions which didn't help the matter at all.

I don't support what happened to Hepler, though the entire back-and-forth insults between both sides didn't help anything but make it worse.

Why couldn't some people have left comments made in a 6 year old interview alone? we could question the past all we like, but we have to deal with the present in order to make our future a better one, Dave.

So as long as they started it...?

[TEWR]

Costin Razvan wrote...

Hepler called everyone who disliked her writing sexist and homophobic. How exactly should people feel about that when they had no role in the flame war on twitter, or e-mail spam etc

Wait, what? Where?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 février 2012 - 02:28 .

[ScottishMartialArts]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

These individuals might have valid criticisms buried within their vitriol, but I don't want to listen to their crap or validate their behavior.

If I have missed your point, I apologize, but that doesn't change the fact that the essence of what you're arguing is that criticism is only legitimate when spoken by someone who plays nice. 98% of what was directed towards Hepler was poor vitriol. 2% was legitimate criticism, some of which included tough language. We shouldn't dismiss that criticism just because it wasn't nice. Again, my worry in how Bioware is choosing to handle this is that any subsequent criticism of Bioware's or Hepler's writing will be summarily dismissed. If that is in fact what ends up happening, Bioware has done a great disservice to itself, because the company's products will only improve if they listen to and internalize the legitimate criticism that is out there.

[Costin_Razvan]

leggywillow wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

leggywillow wrote...
Okay.  So she developed a character in a direction that you did not like.  Sorry?  That's an opinion.  I personally think that the seeds of Anders' transformation were scattered all over Awakening and given what happened with Justice I found his change in DA2 to be a perfectly reasonable direction to take the character.  Many people agree with me, and many people agree with you.  Opinions: not facts.

Yes it's an opinion, an opinion over which one shouldn't be called the way Hepler did.

Seeing as Hepler was the one who was (personally and shockingly) attacked first, this comes across as someone being sad that a dog bit them after kicking the dog for ten minutes.  Poor you?  Sorry if I can't find any sympathy for Hepler's attackers.

And those who had nothing to do with the attacks on her on twitter, e-mail or those few that called her? Because I'd bet the vast majority of people who disliked what she wrote had no role in those, and no I did not have a role in that. Hell I only found out about them much later.

 
Wait, what? Where? 

Her twitter. It got taken down now but the statement was there.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 février 2012 - 02:30 .

[Bladefist_01]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I ask again, why couldn't she have made her twitter private rather than make matters worse by restoring to an insult herself? It only made matters worse, including Aaron Flynn's reactions which didn't help the matter at all.

I don't support what happened to Hepler, though the entire back-and-forth insults between both sides didn't help anything but make it worse.

Why couldn't some people have left comments made in a 6 year old interview alone? we could question the past all we like, but we have to deal with the present in order to make our future a better one, Dave.

Yes, using a 6 year old interview was misinformed and the actions taken on that were quite honestly despicable. But as you said, we must focus on the present, including the statements made by Biowares employees, and you are just avoiding the subject.

[Aggie Punbot]

Stanley Woo, you are a brave man for moderating this thread (even though its your job). Kudos to you.

[XX55XX]

I bet the vast majority of people who sent her threatening e-mails just simply jumped on the Reddit hate bandwagon without even knowing who she is or what she does - other than the fact that the mob had set its sights on her over one inflammatory post by a few solitary individuals.

[upsettingshorts]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

If I have missed your point, I apologize, but that doesn't change the fact that the essence of what you're arguing is that criticism is only legitimate when spoken by someone who plays nice. 98% of what was directed towards Hepler was poor vitriol. 2% was legitimate criticism, some of which included tough language. We shouldn't dismiss that criticism just because it wasn't nice. Again, my worry in how Bioware is choosing to handle this is that any subsequent criticism of Bioware's or Hepler's writing will be summarily dismissed. If that is in fact what ends up happening, Bioware has done a great disservice to itself, because the company's products will only improve if they listen to and internalize the legitimate criticism that is out there.

Strawman.  

I can point these out all night.  

There's tons and tons of "legitimate" criticisms to be had on the BSN, and none of it is resulting in Dr. Ray denouncing posters' behavior and making donations to charitable organizations.  That's what this thread is about.  Again, this argument of yours and others is patently disingenuous. 

You are not earning sympathy for your position, but bemused exasperation.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 février 2012 - 02:33 .

[Imported_beer]

But, the other side is just as bad right now. Case in point, on of the individuals that got one of Flynn's retorts on twitter is now suffering from death threat phone calls and having his wife and children threatened. The biggest cause is that he was singled out on Destructoid's article, and after apologizing (pre-article), he has asked destructoid to remove the links, they refuse.

Do, Bioware, how about turning the other cheek, being the better person (company?) and say something on his behalf?

What Bioware did was provide a factual account of the exchange as did Destructoid. Were any of the people who called him Bioware or Destructoid employees? Was it Jennifer or her family? Then how is Bioware responsible for this? The people who threatened his family are jerks and are behaving in exactly the same way Jennifer was treated. I am sure many think they are justified but there is no excuse to resort to cyberthuggery on either side.

What Bioware is doing at this point is quite legitimate. It is to ensure people don't deny what they said, and use this to make martyrs out of themselves. Note that they haven't hidden what Jennifer said either.

I ask again, why couldn't she have made her twitter private rather than make matters worse by restoring to an insult herself? It only made matters worse, including Aaron Flynn's reactions which didn't help the matter at all..

Because she is human and this had been going on for months? Even professionals are people. They are human beings. You think anyone will be okay with incessant personal attacks and physical threats? 

But even so, she didn't pick out a person and say YOU- Mr. Whoever are jealous, did she?

That alone elevates her statement over a lot of what was directed at her.  

Modifié par Imported_beer, 22 février 2012 - 02:32 .