1876 réponses à ce sujet

[ScottishMartialArts]

[And now this is off-topic.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 22 février 2012 - 02:48 .

[Leanansidhe]

Imported_beer wrote...

I have figured out the rules!

1. If you say something 5 years ago, you still feel the same way! Because no one evolves, grows, changes or modifies their opinions or thoughts in any way! Ever!
2. If I am upset with the product of a company, I can target any employee as being solely responsible because why? BECAUSE! Clearly that opinion they had five years ago is responsible for the product I am dissatisfied by. There can be no other logical explanation. I am going to pick a random employee. Epler! You are a DEMONIC ENTITY. Stanley, you like to consume innocent babies. AND PUPPIES. I am going to call you people every night to profess my hatred of what you did to Bioware!
3. I can call you a fat sow, tell you to kill yourself, call your house and harass you, but if you tell me to be more polite, you are being tyrannical, fascist and sweeping ALL criticism under a rug! After months of having to listen to my clearly mature panning of the employee who ruined all gaming ever, if said employee finally makes any snarky response, she is being immature! And should kill herself for what upset me in the first place! Resurrect herself and DO IT AGAIN for the snark!
4. If I didn't like something, it sucked. Objectively. Because I am the universe. Anyone who disagrees is a brainwashed fanboi/girl. Anyone who agrees, but disagrees with the way I have criticized it is also a fanboi/girl. And they suck! They should also kill themselves.
5. If I am a sanitation engineer, I really need to like poop. If I am a pediatrician, I really need to like kids. Because you know that is the most important thing. Since Ms. Hepler doesn't like every shooter, RTS, archeologist doing cartwheels game out there, she is totally unqualified to write anything. She is also unqualified to write anything if I don't like what she writes. Because I am the universe.

A small part of my brain just said- oh well, there was plenty of legitimate concern which could have been expressed politely. Someone could have said - Hey Jennifer, your comment about skipping combat worries me because...NO! What am I doing? No! You ruined everything that was wonderful in the universe Jennifer! HOW DO YOU LIVE WITH YOURSELF?!!

I miss you, I_B. 

Also, as I said on Twitter, please tell Jennifer that the sane BioWare fans think she's great! 

[Throw_Rug]

I made a quick account just to voice my support for Hepler and Bioware. Personal attacks are never acceptable, and it's just yet another example of how people with anonymity decide to resort to insults rather than try to deliver criticism in a meaningful way, simply because they can get away with it. The QnA session was an opportunity to make legitimate complaints and ask questions, and it's always annoying when it gets ruined when a kid decides to take the opportunity to make petulant over-generalizations such as "Hepler is a Cancer."
I'd also like to mention that while the QnA happened on Reddit, this has 4chan written all over it. Don't believe it when someone begs for 'something to be done about reddit.' /v/ has always made its hate go too far, and this is such an obvious case that it's funny when people fall for the misdirection.

I do, however, think its sometimes appropriate to voice criticism of the opinions of people who make video games. Otherwise they would not have any opportunity to improve their work or stay in touch with the people they make games for. If all we did was to tell them that they were excellent in every way, nothing would ever get better.

To that effect, I'll be honest for a minute. I consider Jennifer Hepler's writing to be fairly derivative. But there's no way I'm going to stop there. I think Notch goes on vacation a lot more often than he actually works, Nomura's JRPG protagonists are endless reiterations of the same garbage anime persona, Bobby Kotick is more interested in the bottom line than delivering an entertaining gaming experience, Shigeru Miyamoto is coasting on earlier successes and needs to deliver something that isn't another sequel with a motion gimmick.

We have opinions. Sure, some of my opinions are subjective, and possibly misinformed. But its always important to be subject to re-evaluation in every aspect of how you feel about something as varied as an art medium.

I'm disappointed that the QnA session was ruined by some idiot. I would have liked to hear more of Hepler's writing philosophy, since what we have is years old at this point.

[ScottishMartialArts]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
There's tons and tons of "legitimate" criticisms to be had on the BSN, and none of it is resulting in Dr. Ray denouncing posters' behavior and making donations to charitable organizations.  That's what this thread is about.  Again, this argument of yours and others is patently disingenuous. 

Yes, there's tons and tons of legitimate criticism that gets shouted down by the echo chamber and locked by our pal Stanley.

[Dave of Canada]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Why couldn't some people have left comments made in a 6 year old interview alone?

Because it painted her as the target after the recent backlash from Story Mode and other controversial effects rather than simply being backlash from the 6 year old interview, anybody who'd make such claims would've recieved just as much hate (It's /v/, not really much else you can expect) simply because many people on the internet seek a target for their frustrations and hatred with what they'd deem as the "ruining" of gaming.

As much as the past influenced what happened, it was the present which declared it. The core of the issue isn't Hepler and their problems with it, it's their problems with Bioware as a whole and it's boiled over. I don't frequent /v/ often, though I did see what was happening and it seemed to be simply their hatred from DA2/ME3 boiling over and Hepler was simply their target because of her past interview and the photoshopped BSN post (and while /v/ does have problems with women and the like, that wasn't the core of the "hate").

Building a better future won't happen if we're simply going to continuously hurl insults from both sides, one must understand why this boiled over and why Hepler was the target and then either ignore it (which will cause it to happen again in the future with a loose comment from an employee sets them off) or do something about it, better or worse.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 février 2012 - 02:35 .

[Anarya]

I wasn't going to post in this thread because arguing on the internet never accomplishes anything but oh well, here I go anyway:

It DOESN'T MATTER what you think of Ms. Hepler's writing or what she tweeted in frustration, the abuse she is receiving over her opinions is 100% out of line. Don't like her writing or the direction you think Bioware is heading? That's perfectly fine. Criticize her work, that infamous tweet, or the company all you want to, but there's a difference between criticizing the games you feel passionate about and hurling abuse at a person for who they are. And I don't care what terrible crimes against gaming you think she's committed, there is NO CIRCUMSTANCE under which calling her house with harrassment or driving her off Twitter is acceptable. 

And don't pretend like sexism is dead and didn't have anything to do with this. It doesn't matter that the initial complaint might have been about the actual writing, bringing gendered slurs into the equation and harrassing Hepler for having the audacity to work in gaming while being a female who doesn't look like she stepped out of Maxim makes it partially about her gender. You can't tell me that it's not about gender when Hepler and people who supported her on twitter are getting called fat/stupid/illiterate/ugly fangirls who are ruining gaming. But rage impotently on social media all you want to, really. Gaming is changing to accomodate people who aren't the 18-to-34-year-old straight white male and there's nothing you can do about it. 

to the people who understand the difference between criticism and abuse: keep on keepin' on because this post is obviously not directed at you. 

and to Bioware: You're doing the right thing by publicly and officially voicing support for Ms. Hepler in this, and I was pleased to see other Bioware employees coming to her defense on Twitter.

[Blastback]

[Unnecessary.]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 22 février 2012 - 02:54 .

[ref]

SKRemaks wrote...

Imported_beer wrote...

I have figured out the rules!

1. If you say something 5 years ago, you still feel the same way! Because no one evolves, grows, changes or modifies their opinions or thoughts in any way! Ever!
2. If I am upset with the product of a company, I can target any employee as being solely responsible because why? BECAUSE! Clearly that opinion they had five years ago is responsible for the product I am dissatisfied by. There can be no other logical explanation. I am going to pick a random employee. Epler! You are a DEMONIC ENTITY. Stanley, you like to consume innocent babies. AND PUPPIES. I am going to call you people every night to profess my hatred of what you did to Bioware!
3. I can call you a fat sow, tell you to kill yourself, call your house and harass you, but if you tell me to be more polite, you are being tyrannical, fascist and sweeping ALL criticism under a rug! After months of having to listen to my clearly mature panning of the employee who ruined all gaming ever, if said employee finally makes any snarky response, she is being immature! And should kill herself for what upset me in the first place! Resurrect herself and DO IT AGAIN for the snark!
4. If I didn't like something, it sucked. Objectively. Because I am the universe. Anyone who disagrees is a brainwashed fanboi/girl. Anyone who agrees, but disagrees with the way I have criticized it is also a fanboi/girl. And they suck! They should also kill themselves.
5. If I am a sanitation engineer, I really need to like poop. If I am a pediatrician, I really need to like kids. Because you know that is the most important thing. Since Ms. Hepler doesn't like every shooter, RTS, archeologist doing cartwheels game out there, she is totally unqualified to write anything. She is also unqualified to write anything if I don't like what she writes. Because I am the universe.

A small part of my brain just said- oh well, there was plenty of legitimate concern which could have been expressed politely. Someone could have said - Hey Jennifer, your comment about skipping combat worries me because...NO! What am I doing? No! You ruined everything that was wonderful in the universe Jennifer! HOW DO YOU LIVE WITH YOURSELF?!!

I miss you, I_B. 

Also, as I said on Twitter, please tell Jennifer that the sane BioWare fans think she's great! 

Here we go again, everyone who doesn't like Jennifer's writing is not a sane BioWare fan. I've enjoyed plenty of BioWare games and I've also not liked some, but I guess that makes me not a sane BioWare fan. I have never attacked Jennifer Hepler like a lot of people have, but it's a shame that just because people have a different opinion on things we get labeled outcasts or whatever.

[syllogi]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Her twitter. It got taken down now but the statement was there.

You mean like the statement you made wishing someone would physically attack Ms. Hepler in the TIM thread?  Did her statement hurt your feelings?  Aww.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Costin Razvan wrote...

Hepler called everyone who disliked her writing sexist and homophobic. How exactly should people feel about that when they had no role in the flame war on twitter, or e-mail spam etc

Wait, what? Where?

That's what I want to know.

At present, I suspect Hepler's alleged comment was either taken wildly out of context or turned into a gross generalisation.

[AtreiyaN7]

bsphil wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I ask again, why couldn't she have made her twitter private rather than make matters worse by restoring to an insult herself? It only made matters worse, including Aaron Flynn's reactions which didn't help the matter at all.

I don't support what happened to Hepler, though the entire back-and-forth insults between both sides didn't help anything but make it worse.

Why couldn't some people have left comments made in a 6 year old interview alone? we could question the past all we like, but we have to deal with the present in order to make our future a better one, Dave.

So as long as they started it...?

Is this yet another attempt to defend the vitriolic, hate-filled speech directed at Hepler? People need to get in touch with reality. She didn't respond in the best manner, but she had clearly been provoked beyond belief. BW employees are humans, and if you push anyone past their limits, they'll snap eventually. Everyone (those defending the attackers) acts like employees of the company should take all the crap launched at them, even when it includes things like the threats of physical violence made by some of those horrible people who initiated this unpleasant chain of events. In which galaxy do you live where it's okay to physically threaten someone because you don't like their writing or the fact that they don't like playing games? Let me know, because I'll cross it off my list when I go traveling around in my future TARDIS.

[jesuno]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Stanley Woo, you are a brave man for moderating this thread (even though its your job). Kudos to you.

Seriously, I'd buy him a beer for putting up with some of this crap.

[Merci357]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

These individuals might have valid criticisms buried within their vitriol, but I don't want to listen to their crap or validate their behavior.

If I have missed your point, I apologize, but that doesn't change the fact that the essence of what you're arguing is that criticism is only legitimate when spoken by someone who plays nice. 98% of what was directed towards Hepler was poor vitriol. 2% was legitimate criticism, some of which included tough language. We shouldn't dismiss that criticism just because it wasn't nice. Again, my worry in how Bioware is choosing to handle this is that any subsequent criticism of Bioware's or Hepler's writing will be summarily dismissed. If that is in fact what ends up happening, Bioware has done a great disservice to itself, because the company's products will only improve if they listen to and internalize the legitimate criticism that is out there.

And how should they react with what little viable criticsm was voiced during a hate campaign against a single writer? Well, maybe it fell under the carpet this time. It's almost a year since DA2 was released, plenty of time to voice said criticism in a constructive manner, and I assure you, quite a lot of people did.

Modifié par Merci357, 22 février 2012 - 02:37 .

[Big I]

What sort of sick person attacks someone like this over nothing? Completely unacceptable. My best wishes go out to Ms Hepler.

[A Fusing Shade]

XX55XX wrote...

A Fusing Shade wrote...

This thread serves no positive purpose.

If anything, the original post should have been locked to allow the community notice of the events that have transpired and Biowares reaction to it. Allowing posters to add their own thoughts (while I understand the reasoning behind it, I am sure many members of the community wishes Jennifer well after this little incident, however - ) has only caused the morally rigid to defend a position they have do not have complete understanding of, and the morally loose to simply stir the pot and cause more trouble.

Literally, people within this thread seem to be guarding against nothing. There are no enemies at the gate.

Talking down to each other like they are at fault or are the perpetrators, refusing to understand someone else's point because that means they are right(!), Bioware employees showing an aggressive reply to a mundane post and people barking in the dark about subjects that have nothing to do with what is at hand, simply so that they may feel that they have done right this day should not constitute a thread.


Both parties are guilty of some wrongdoing. It should not be allowed to flourish any further.

I disagree with this assessment. Not only does this open thread allow us to wish Ms. Hepler well and condemn the mob that has been verbally attacking her, it also allows us to discuss the appropriate standards for criticism. 

I didn't like how Ms. Hepler wrote Anders. Nor do I share her antipathy for video games. But, unlike some hotheads who spend too much time at the office trolling the Internet, I don't attack people just because they ruined my game.

And yes - there are no barbarians at the gate, I know. But we must condemn this behavior because it isn't productive for future discourse between the fans and BioWare. Furthermore, standards should be set, and respect between both parties restored.

Furthermore, BioWare should allow more constructive criticism of Ms. Hepler to flourish. They shouldn't lock the threads. It reflects poorly on them. 

I completely agree with the sentiment of allowing the community to show some support to Jennifer, I merely feel that creating a spot on the forums might not have been an ideal place. Perhaps a letterbox  - where users where given the chance to say a few words of support, which would then be picked and put on to something a little more grand, perhaps a page of collected posts or even an e-card of sorts - would have been a wiser choice.

I cannot help but think that condemning such behaviour and seeing arguments repeated, again and again, is simply damaging. It is clear that assaulting a twitter page is no way to make your voice heard but, I do not think it is something to take seriously, being that the majority of those who participated in the (dare I say?) attack on Jennifers account were likely not looking to put across any criticism of Bioware or Hepler, merely get some kicks out of causing hassle to someone. Rightly so, there are those out there whom are old fans and have likely become jaded but, I feel they will know better on how to put across their feelings rather than a petty bombardment of insults. In essence, there is no need to build anything between the two parties (Bioware and those whom attacked her Twitter) being that many could easily have been people with ammunition provided by a certain website and too much free time on their hands.

[Dave of Canada]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

At present, I suspect Hepler's alleged comment was either taken wildly out of context or turned into a gross generalisation.

The comment is being overblown, it was her saying that the people were attacking her because she has a vagina and she has a job in the game's industry and they'd get neither.

[TEWR]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Her twitter. It got taken down now but the statement was there.

Really? Wow. Now that is clearly unprofessional if she actually said that. There's no excuse for saying that anyone who dislikes her writing is just sexist and homophobic.

Dave of Canada wrote...

The comment is being overblown, it was her saying that the people were attacking her because she has a vagina and she has a job in the game's industry and they'd get neither.

If that's the same comment Costin is referring to, then I remember reading that comment in an article the other day and talked about in this thread about a dozen or so pages ago.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 février 2012 - 02:40 .

[upsettingshorts]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Why couldn't some people have left comments made in a 6 year old interview alone?

Because it painted her as the target after the recent backlash from Story Mode and other controversial effects rather than simply being backlash from the 6 year old interview, anybody who'd make such claims would've recieved just as much hate (It's /v/, not really much else you can expect) simply because many people on the internet seek a target for their frustrations and hatred with what they'd deem as the "ruining" of gaming.

As much as the past influenced what happened, it was the present which declared it. The core of the issue isn't Hepler and their problems with it, it's their problems with Bioware as a whole and it's boiled over. I don't frequent /v/ often, though I did see what was happening and it seemed to be simply their hatred from DA2/ME3 boiling over and Hepler was simply their target because of her past interview and the photoshopped BSN post (and while /v/ does have problems with women and the like, that wasn't the core of the "hate").

Building a better future won't happen if we're simply going to continuously hurl insults from both sides, one must understand why this boiled over and why Hepler was the target and then either ignore it (which will cause it to happen again in the future with a loose comment from an employee sets them off) or do something about it, better or worse.

I know where you are coming from, Dave, but this is not one of those times we must endeavor to sympathize with the mob with calm detatchment.

This is the time for drawing a line between honest criticism and reprehensibly juvenile behavior.  

Anyone equivocating on this subject is either ignorant or dishonest.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 février 2012 - 02:41 .

[Blacklash93]

Dave of Canada wrote...
I don't support what happened to Hepler, though the entire back-and-forth insults between both sides didn't help anything but make it worse.

Many people don't respond well to such crude insults and while that doesn't justify the reaction, the fact remains that they should have never started it to begin with.

And for the record, I'll restate that I thought Anders was very well handled in DA2.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 22 février 2012 - 02:40 .

[Blastback]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

If I have missed your point, I apologize, but that doesn't change the fact that the essence of what you're arguing is that criticism is only legitimate when spoken by someone who plays nice. 98% of what was directed towards Hepler was poor vitriol. 2% was legitimate criticism, some of which included tough language. We shouldn't dismiss that criticism just because it wasn't nice. Again, my worry in how Bioware is choosing to handle this is that any subsequent criticism of Bioware's or Hepler's writing will be summarily dismissed. If that is in fact what ends up happening, Bioware has done a great disservice to itself, because the company's products will only improve if they listen to and internalize the legitimate criticism that is out there.

Strawman.  

I can point these out all night.  

There's tons and tons of "legitimate" criticisms to be had on the BSN, and none of it is resulting in Dr. Ray denouncing posters' behavior and making donations to charitable organizations.  That's what this thread is about.  Again, this argument of yours and others is patently disingenuous. 

You are not earning sympathy for your position, but bemused exasperation.

Think you might be using to many big words for some of these posters Shorts.

I'm well aware of what a strawman is, thank you very much.

Jackass...

I was refering to using terms like patently disingenuous and bemused exasperation actually.

And your right that was insulting, and I'm sorry.

[syllogi]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

syllogi wrote...
Even *if* the speakers in this case weren't a bunch of reactionary ignorant bullies, what they have been doing does actually trump the merits of their arguments.  Even though they're so confused, they have no idea what their arguments are.

I've made the point elsewhere but I'll make it again here: rejecting an argument because you don't like the speaker is a very slippery slope.

Not really. Individuals have no obligation to listen to others who we can't/don't respect, no matter how you want to spin it.

What if I said that I'm not obliged to listen to Jews because they are inherently untrustworthy? In addition to being racist, aren't I just following this line of argument to its logical conclusion? That I don't have to listen to someone if I don't respect them? Shouldn't we give everyone's argument the benefit of the doubt regardless of what we may think of the person delivering it?

Again, you're completely avoiding the fact that these people are bullying someone over old comments that were taken out of context, and a fake quote.  Your example has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.  All gamers are not being unfairly maligned.  There are clear examples of people wishing physical harm to a person in this case.  Please explain to me why I should take people seriously who are threatening an individual over false quotes and an old, out of context interviews.

[AtreiyaN7]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

syllogi wrote...
Even *if* the speakers in this case weren't a bunch of reactionary ignorant bullies, what they have been doing does actually trump the merits of their arguments.  Even though they're so confused, they have no idea what their arguments are.

I've made the point elsewhere but I'll make it again here: rejecting an argument because you don't like the speaker is a very slippery slope.

Not really. Individuals have no obligation to listen to others who we can't/don't respect, no matter how you want to spin it.

What if I said that I'm not obliged to listen to Jews because they are inherently untrustworthy? In addition to being racist, aren't I just following this line of argument to its logical conclusion? That I don't have to listen to someone if I don't respect them? Shouldn't we give everyone's argument the benefit of the doubt regardless of what we may think of the person delivering it?

Your argument is patently ridiculous. We're clearly talking about a very specific group of people: those who can't post their criticisms about game-related stuff in these forums/Twitter/wherever in a respectful manner. We're not talking about religion, politics or anything else besides that. I clearly mentioned the bullying and insensitive behavior. Now go away - I saw your other equally inane post, and I am so done with you.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 22 février 2012 - 02:44 .

[ConcernedPeanut]

Imported_beer wrote...

But, the other side is just as bad right now. Case in point, on of the individuals that got one of Flynn's retorts on twitter is now suffering from death threat phone calls and having his wife and children threatened. The biggest cause is that he was singled out on Destructoid's article, and after apologizing (pre-article), he has asked destructoid to remove the links, they refuse.

Do, Bioware, how about turning the other cheek, being the better person (company?) and say something on his behalf?

What Bioware did was provide a factual account of the exchange as did Destructoid. Were any of the people who called him Bioware or Destructoid employees? Was it Jennifer or her family? Then how is Bioware responsible for this? The people who threatened his family are jerks and are behaving in exactly the same way Jennifer was treated. I am sure many think they are justified but there is no excuse to resort to cyberthuggery on either side.

What Bioware is doing at this point is quite legitimate. It is to ensure people don't deny what they said, and use this to make martyrs out of themselves. Note that they haven't hidden what Jennifer said either.

I ask again, why couldn't she have made her twitter private rather than make matters worse by restoring to an insult herself? It only made matters worse, including Aaron Flynn's reactions which didn't help the matter at all..

Because she is human and this had been going on for months? Even professionals are people. They are human beings. You think anyone will be okay with incessant personal attacks and physical threats? 

But even so, she didn't pick out a person and say YOU- Mr. Whoever are jealous, did she?

That alone elevates her statement over a lot of what was directed at her.  

Regardless of picking people out, she represented her company. She made a statement like she did, WHILST she was getting hateful messages, and expects for children to not act like children? Are you serious? And to recify the situation she could've made her twitter private. She may be human but in the end, she deleted her Twitter because the comments got too much. Many people in the public eye know now not to "feed the trolls", she was just vindictive and expected nothing to happen.

Doesn't mean the abuse was less wrong. But it's quite clear she provoked them.

[lv12medic]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

98% of what was directed towards Hepler was poor vitriol. 2% was legitimate criticism, some of which included tough language

Which then translates to maybe .00001% of players whose criticism might matter assuming a million people buy Bioware games.  Bioware can take this supposedly legititamate  criticism like they can take all the rest.  They look at it, maybe consider it if it fits into their plans.  They may act on it, they may ignore it, they may come up with their own self criticisms based from it.  But just because someone is loud and vocal about their criticism doesn't mean Bioware has to change their entire operation structure for those select few who think they're criticisms are correct because they are the loudest.

People seem to equate Biowares stance of taking criticism under advisement as being Bioware should listen to my concerns only and should change everything they do because of me.  Unfortunately were all just a drop in the bucket so the bucket needs to be concered with the overrall mass of the water rather than what one drop is doing.

[jesuno]

@imported beer

Wait, Destructoid provided a factual account by listing everyone that was rude to Hepler? Did they report about his apology before the article went up? Who cares who is threatening this guy's children, but he is being singled out in a big way. I not saying Bioware has to make a donation on his account, but saying that bile should not be combated with more bile would do nothing but help their image.

Modifié par jesuno, 22 février 2012 - 02:42 .