1876 réponses à ce sujet

[Imported_beer]

SKRemaks wrote...

I miss you, I_B. 

*hugs*

Imagine, a thread where I am not posting pron and actually speaking out against cyberthuggery.

Disagreement, criticism, dislike- they are all normal. They are healthy. Games are subjective. For everything you loathe, there are those who probably love it. People arguing with you, is not always a symptom of being a Biowarebot. Criticism doesn't make you a hater.

Speaking for myself, if you came to me and said- Beer- I don't like the way you express yourself.  You are obtuse, florid and you talk too much. I will feel sad, but may ask you why you think so. Maybe we can have a conversation about it. Maybe you will actually affect change.. If you came to my house, called me an [expletive deleted], told me I had [expletive deleted], and told me I was better off dead, I am...let us say...not going to be very open to your criticisms.

All personal attacks have zero effectiveness, IMO. The minute you start a sentence with- hey [expletive], you suck [expletive deleted], and I hope you die and this is why I think so- no matter how legitimate your argument, I think the chances are high you lost your audience.

[ScottishMartialArts]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Your argument is patently ridiculous. We're clearly talking about a very specific group of people: those who can't post their criticisms in these forums in a respectful manner. We're not talking about religion, politics or anything else besides behavior in a forum for games.

You're the one who said we don't have to listen to those we don't respect, not me.

[Blacklash93]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I know where you are coming from, Dave, but this is not one of those times we must endeavor to sympathize with the mob with calm detatchment.

Pretty much this. I'd rather Bioware rot like the naysayers say it is than have such juvenile behavior be taken as anything other than what it essentially is. These people don't deserve to be listened to, wherever they're coming from.

Let's leave the people who can sensibly voice criticism to heard by Bioware.

[ConcernedPeanut]

Anarya wrote...

I wasn't going to post in this thread because arguing on the internet never accomplishes anything but oh well, here I go anyway:

It DOESN'T MATTER what you think of Ms. Hepler's writing or what she tweeted in frustration, the abuse she is receiving over her opinions is 100% out of line. Don't like her writing or the direction you think Bioware is heading? That's perfectly fine. Criticize her work, that infamous tweet, or the company all you want to, but there's a difference between criticizing the games you feel passionate about and hurling abuse at a person for who they are. And I don't care what terrible crimes against gaming you think she's committed, there is NO CIRCUMSTANCE under which calling her house with harrassment or driving her off Twitter is acceptable. 

And don't pretend like sexism is dead and didn't have anything to do with this. It doesn't matter that the initial complaint might have been about the actual writing, bringing gendered slurs into the equation and harrassing Hepler for having the audacity to work in gaming while being a female who doesn't look like she stepped out of Maxim makes it partially about her gender. You can't tell me that it's not about gender when Hepler and people who supported her on twitter are getting called fat/stupid/illiterate/ugly fangirls who are ruining gaming. But rage impotently on social media all you want to, really. Gaming is changing to accomodate people who aren't the 18-to-34-year-old straight white male and there's nothing you can do about it. 

to the people who understand the difference between criticism and abuse: keep on keepin' on because this post is obviously not directed at you. 

and to Bioware: You're doing the right thing by publicly and officially voicing support for Ms. Hepler in this, and I was pleased to see other Bioware employees coming to her defense on Twitter.

Sexism isn't dead, but it had nothing to do with this. /v/ hate on Todd Howard just as much.
You're right about the abuse - she didn't deserve it. However it does paint the people with more educated opinions about her - and her companies work - as haters who are in line with the trolls. 
The trolls know whats wrong with the games they complain about - they just don't know how to say she, or Bioware in general, is doing a bad job without resorting to harassment, spam and immature verbage.

[Shoemaster]

It's obvious how passionate people are around bioware in general. People may not realize that the video game subculture is just like any other sports culture. Instead of rioting cities after a game, people post spiteful comments across the internet. But unlike the satisfying feeling of physically doing something about it, people turn to unsatisfying means of commentary. That's why people are still upset about a 6 year old comment, that's why the trolls never seem to quit. It's hard to be content with written dialogue when upset.

[upsettingshorts]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

You're the one who said we don't have to listen to those we don't respect, not me.

Here's another tip for the person who already knows what a strawman is.

In order for a slippery slope argument to be valid - and not "full of crap" - the link between the catalyst and the conclusion must be convincingly established. 

So, pray tell how saying that we shouldn't listen to anything these people had to say to Hepler because they were clearly being ****s will eventually lead to the downfall of civilization? 

In case it wasn't clear, that question is rhetorical.  This slippery slope is full of crap.

[bsphil]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

bsphil wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I ask again, why couldn't she have made her twitter private rather than make matters worse by restoring to an insult herself? It only made matters worse, including Aaron Flynn's reactions which didn't help the matter at all.

I don't support what happened to Hepler, though the entire back-and-forth insults between both sides didn't help anything but make it worse.

Why couldn't some people have left comments made in a 6 year old interview alone? we could question the past all we like, but we have to deal with the present in order to make our future a better one, Dave.

So as long as they started it...?

Is this yet another attempt to defend the vitriolic, hate-filled speech directed at Hepler? People need to get in touch with reality. She didn't respond in the best manner, but she had clearly been provoked beyond belief. BW employees are humans, and if you push anyone past their limits, they'll snap eventually. Everyone (those defending the attackers) acts like employees of the company should take all the crap launched at them, even when it includes things like the threats of physical violence made by some of those horrible people who initiated this unpleasant chain of events. In which galaxy do you live where it's okay to physically threaten someone because you don't like their writing or the fact that they don't like playing games? Let me know, because I'll cross it off my list when I go traveling around in my future TARDIS.

So yes, as long as they started it, it's ok to respond in kind.

Posting on Twitter is not a reflex.  No matter what, you can take the time to compose yourself.  A GM of a regional Bioware office ought to know better than to post reactively on a public account.  It's just as indefensible. 

[Blastback]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I know where you are coming from, Dave, but this is not one of those times we must endeavor to sympathize with the mob with calm detatchment.

Pretty much this. I'd rather Bioware rot like the naysayers say it is than have such juvenile behavior be taken as anything other than what it essentially is. These people don't deserve to be listened to, wherever they're coming from.

Let's leave the people who can sensibly voice criticism to heard by Bioware.

Thirded.  And I consider myself one of those players who was very unhappy with DA2 and the changes it represents.

[Dave of Canada]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I know where you are coming from, Dave, but this is not one of those times we must endeavor to sympathize with the mob with calm detatchment.

Not saying the mob should be sympathized with, simply that seeing where they come from might stop future attacks. One quick look at a few of their posts and one can see that they're planning on raiding other employee twitters, it's only going to get worse if there's nothing made to appease or shut them down. It's either going to end once every twitter is set to private, something is done to appease them or they're shut down in some other manner.

Edit: According to /v/, Gaider is next.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 février 2012 - 02:48 .

[WizenSlinky0]

I just found my way here after a reference on the ME forums and some research. Totally did not know this was going on until just now. Probably because I avoid game news sites like the plague. Go figure.

Hepler is not the problem people have. They are using her as a scapegoat for everything they feel has gone wrong with Bioware (I do not express my agreement or disagreement with either side at this time). That's the saddest part about this. She is being victimized not because of anything she expressly did but because the internet latched onto her as a way to express built up rage.

There is as I will always believe a neccesity for people to express their concerns and problems with the greater community. Especially those who create the stuff that has, in some way or another, failed them. Does this neccesitate said creator to fix it for them? Not usually, because 9 times out of 10 the product is working just as intended but is just disliked for whatever reason by the customer. Some people seem incapable of drawing a line between constructive critcism, flaming, and finally outright disrespect.

Hate the idea, do not hate the thinker. If she has ideas or opinions you disagree with, you do just that, disagree with them. You make your point and provide whatever evidence you have against it. You do not under any circumstance attack the person who came up with the opinion no matter how wrong you think they are. We are shaped by our experiences. Something Bioware games have explored in forming the central characters of their narratives. Just as our opinions have been shaped by what we have seen hers were formed by what she has experienced. Neither is as valid as the other. There is very little objectiveness in debates like what stormed around this issue.

I can only say I'm sorry Hepler, but to be proud. For whatever reason your narratives helped create a passionate fanbase who fell in love with the worlds Bioware created. Many have become too feverish in their obsessions but it does not devalue the work you have done or what you have accomplished. So again, I'm sorry you had to be exposed to a situation like this. The internet hate machine can be a truly cruel mistress (or mister, of course).

I believe you'll have strength to spare in pushing forward and doing what you love. Although not much my thoughts are with your continued safety and success.

[Ryzaki]

Blastback wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...
Pretty much this. I'd rather Bioware rot like the naysayers say it is than have such juvenile behavior be taken as anything other than what it essentially is. These people don't deserve to be listened to, wherever they're coming from.

Let's leave the people who can sensibly voice criticism to heard by Bioware.

Thirded.  And I consider myself one of those players who was very unhappy with DA2 and the changes it represents.

4th and same.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 22 février 2012 - 02:48 .

[AtreiyaN7]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Your argument is patently ridiculous. We're clearly talking about a very specific group of people: those who can't post their criticisms in these forums in a respectful manner. We're not talking about religion, politics or anything else besides behavior in a forum for games.

You're the one who said we don't have to listen to those we don't respect, not me.

And your post proves what? That you're going to ignore everyone else (me included) who thinks people should behave with a reasonable amount of decorum and rationality when they post? Wow, good for you in supporting hate-filled speech and bullying? Bravo on your principles there - it sure looks like you're getting massive amounts of support for your position that people should be listened to even when they act like a--holes. *sarcasm*

I really should have edited my other post to include that "I'm done with you" thing sooner.

[Blacklash93]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Hepler called everyone who disliked her writing sexist and homophobic. How exactly should people feel about that when they had no role in the flame war on twitter, or e-mail spam etc.

Umm... did I miss something? I don't remember her saying anything like this.

[ScottishMartialArts]

syllogi wrote...

Please explain to me why I should take people seriously who are threatening an individual over false quotes and an old, out of context interviews.

Threats should be ignored, I agree. Calling Hepler a bad writer or ill-suited to be working in gaming considering her professed lack of enjoyment of the medium shouldn't, provided that arguments are made to support such claims. Granted the overwhelming majority of what was said was vitriol. Still, some of it wasn't, and it would be a mistake to ignore the few legitimate criticisms simply because reddit and /v/ went off the handle.

[Blacklash93]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Sure. How about the fact that Anders was a very reasonable, sensible level headed mage who became completely irrational in DA2? That's my issue with Anders.

This is the last thing I'll say on Anders:

Did you miss the part where he became a corrupt abomination?

[Costin_Razvan]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Hepler called everyone who disliked her writing sexist and homophobic. How exactly should people feel about that when they had no role in the flame war on twitter, or e-mail spam etc.

Umm... did I miss something? I don't remember her saying anything like this.

It was on twitter 2 days ago, before she closed the account. Now one can't view any of her tweets.

As for Anders: I am not saying it ain't explained, but I dislike it all the same.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 février 2012 - 02:52 .

[Blastback]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I know where you are coming from, Dave, but this is not one of those times we must endeavor to sympathize with the mob with calm detatchment.

Not saying the mob should be sympathized with, simply that seeing where they come from might stop future attacks. One quick look at a few of their posts and one can see that they're planning on raiding other employee twitters, it's only going to get worse if there's nothing made to appease or shut them down. It's either going to end once every twitter is set to private, something is done to appease them or they're shut down in some other manner.

Edit: According to /v/, Gaider is next.

*Headdesk*
Not at you Dave, I totally get where your coming from.  But just what can Bioware do to appease these people?  Sure, some of them might be willing to engage in a respectful disgusion, but most are just obviously looking for a fight.  

[Dragoonlordz]

General rule of thumb I have learned is gamers are worst the internet has to offer with only one exception which is religious fanatics and the internet in general is full of people who would run a mile rather than say something to someone's face out of cowardice. What those idiots said to her is no different.

Too many people online think they are the next Einstein or Shakespeare, Rembrandt or Prophet, they think they are better than the rest and that everyone else is wrong. They lack respect that people can have different opinions and preferences. Resort to pure bile instead of debate and would rather throw acid than shake someones hand in agreeing to disagree.

The vitriol and hate has got worse on BSN over the years or at least feels that way. Valid criticism and praise should exist but BSN has got far worse with each passing title they bring out and each new set of fans they bring in. The aggression has increased (imho).

The worst element of BSN however is just the hate and contempt shown towards each other. A few bad apples some how turns everyone who defends anything and everyone with criticism all get lumped into the worst of each side even if they are reasonable in comparison.

I have been called a hater and a fanboy within days of each other. Wish people would make up their minds before I have to split in half then buy a second computer for each half to use in order to validate their misconceptions.

But overall yes, internet is full of idiots and fanatics. Social sites are just where they tend to hang out the most from forums, twitter, facebook, Youtube, chan and such. BSN is no different as everyone is so trigger happy with their insults here too.

I miss the days when was no social media internet and phone txting. Back in those days hardly ever heard of such going on and never knew anyone who did it. Multiplayer was between friends who lived nearby or family in same house, games had vastly more variety because they did not have meta data to base assumptions on. All reviews were done through magazines not dime a dozen everyone "thinks they are the next Shakespeare" type articles all over the internet. Egos were kept in check because you were not just random user 0001785 behind a screen a thousend miles away who could say what they wanted with no repercussions.. There was no massive data breaches that stole all our credit card details every other week or month because we never had to use the web to transfer our data. Copies of games were not stolen on anywhere near the vast scale it is at now and distribution of such was very local not global.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 22 février 2012 - 03:11 .

[Stanley Woo]

Throw_Rug wrote...
I do, however, think its sometimes appropriate to voice criticism of the opinions of people who make video games. Otherwise they would not have any opportunity to improve their work or stay in touch with the people they make games for. If all we did was to tell them that they were excellent in every way, nothing would ever get better.

It is absolutely appropriate to voice criticism of game developers. it's one of the reasons we have open forums here in the BioWare Social Network. But there need to be common ground rules, like our posted Site Rules that each and every user agrees to follow and be governed by when they sign up to participate here. without those ground rules, it's extremely easy, as we've seen, for one side or another to have a tremendous advantage.

[AtreiyaN7]

bsphil wrote...

Posting on Twitter is not a reflex.  No matter what, you can take the time to compose yourself.  A GM of a regional Bioware office ought to know better than to post reactively on a public account.  It's just as indefensible. 

You know what I think? I think his response was both human and welcome, even defensible despite it not being the greatest idea. Why? Because it shows loyalty to a fellow company employee and support for her against people who put the worst side of human behavior on public display for everyone to see.

EDIT: And I might have told that tool who made the cancer comment to <bleep> off too if I'd been in Flynn's position.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 22 février 2012 - 02:56 .

[Imported_beer]

ConcernedPeanut wrote...

Regardless of picking people out, she represented her company. She made a statement like she did, WHILST she was getting hateful messages, and expects for children to not act like children? Are you serious? And to recify the situation she could've made her twitter private. She may be human but in the end, she deleted her Twitter because the comments got too much. Many people in the public eye know now not to "feed the trolls", she was just vindictive and expected nothing to happen.

Doesn't mean the abuse was less wrong. But it's quite clear she provoked them.

I don't know Jennifer, Peanut. I have no idea why she may have done what she did and do not like to speculate. I am just saying that if it were me, and I had encountered months of uncessant bullying and at home calls, I would snap too. I'd snap in all sorts of personal ways- naming names and my company would be in turmoil because there would an HR crisis and they can't fire me and there would be mass hysteria, dogs and cats livi...you get the picture.

I am saying that the abuse targeted at her was based on something impersonal. Her personal opinion of games expressed six years ago. It got heated, threatening, invasive, and prolonged. How she replied was with a blanket statement targeting haters in general after months. It would have been seriously unprofessional if she had aimed it at someone specific. It would have been seriously unprofessional if she aimed it at all Bioware critics. She aimed it at a specific brand of haters who were getting pretty nasty. Is that unprofessional? My HR lady says no. My colleague said yes. So I am going to say- given the context, that can be argued as somewhat subjective.

jesuno wrote...

Wait, Destructoid provided a factual account by listing everyone that was rude to Hepler? Did they report about his apology before the article went up? Who cares who is threatening this guy's children, but he is being singled out in a big way. I not saying Bioware has to make a donation on his account, but saying that bile should not be combated with more bile would do nothing but help their image.

I thought you were stating Bioware was not being the better company. And the destructoid article I read was more "this is what happened". Can you provide a link so that I can understand which specific article you are referring to?

If he apologized, I think it is proper for them to note it (as an edit if his apology happened after the article went up). And I have already agreed in my previous that those threatened his family are as bad as those who threatened Jennifer's, even if they think they are justified. Anger just prolongs sorting the mess out.

But when people think it is legitimate to argue with name caling and personal threats if there is a legitimate criticism buried behind the "kill yourself" threats, I don't think it gets sorted out easy.

Modifié par Imported_beer, 22 février 2012 - 02:57 .

[NOD-INFORMER37]

I guess I can understand why some ppl are upset but how in the hell does attacking her help ANYONE? Is it really such a big deal that ppl have to attack her over so many websites? Jeezus,  and I know that Jenn's/ Aaron Flyyn's retaliations didnt help much but I wouldnt be so civil either in their position.

If these the haters dont like the way Bioware's adventures are being told or whatever then they can easily write their own damn stories. Its not that hard, pick up a friggen pencil or open up Word and go for it.(lets see if any if them can do better while they're at it). Thats what I'd do if I wasnt happy with the story. And if not then theres a way to voice complaints without adding to the hordes of dumb*** trolls floatin around out there. 

This honestly, is why I'm ashamed to even be seen as a "gamer". Most of them so friggen rage-happy over such stupid ****, its embarassing. Besides, this is GAMING. It is something that we SHOULD all enjoy regardless.

Anyways good on you Bioware, Jennifer has my support.

(and sorry for the curses here and there, but this crap just pisses me off lol)

Modifié par NOD-INFORMER37, 22 février 2012 - 03:13 .

[Blacklash93]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As for Anders: I am not saying it ain't explained, but I dislike it all the same.

Would you rather be indifferent about it? Anders enraged me, but that's what I liked about him in DA2. Don't confuse a negative reaction to a character with percieved bad writing.

The change in him made him into something other than the uncreative Alistair/Zevran mage hybrid he was in Awakening, which is what I liked the most.

It was on twitter 2 days ago, before she closed the account. Now one can't view any of her tweets.

I honestly don't blame her for accusing the people who were throwing such crude insults at her of that, assuming that was the only way they could hate her work, with how mindless they were.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 22 février 2012 - 03:01 .

[Reptilian Rob]

dragongirl_sk wrote...

The support you show for your employee is highly admirable. Keep on being awesome and making great games!

This! While some of the things Hepler said I disagree with, it does not give anyone the right to act the way they did.

These people need to be punished, or at the very least find out their EA/Bioware accounts and ban them. 

[syllogi]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Please explain to me why I should take people seriously who are threatening an individual over false quotes and an old, out of context interviews.

Threats should be ignored, I agree. Calling Hepler a bad writer or ill-suited to be working in gaming considering her professed lack of enjoyment of the medium shouldn't, provided that arguments are made to support such claims. Granted the overwhelming majority of what was said was vitriol. Still, some of it wasn't, and it would be a mistake to ignore the few legitimate criticisms simply because reddit and /v/ went off the handle.

There's nothing about this current attack than can be taken seriously, from where I'm sitting.  Again, a 2006 interview that is no longer available...I don't agree with the quotes that were picked for the image that is floating around condemning Ms. Hepler's tastes, but I don't have a full opinion, because a) I did not read the full interview, and I know that tastes and opinions can change over six years.  In 2006 I would not have touched Mass Effect, because it was a console action rpg.  A few years later I did play the game, and now I love it.  I'm glad people are not posting out of context quotes about my opinions of Mass Effect from 2006 every time I post about the game on this forum.  

And as far as the fake photoshopped quote, in what world is anyone supposed to listen to those who can't take the time to educate themselves before crying on the internet?  Anyone who constructs an "argument" around the fake forum post deserves nothing.