1876 réponses à ce sujet

[SnakeStrike8]

I have to admit that I didn't know about any of this until very recently. Seems rather silly to me that anyone would need to insult a worker because they dislike that worker's work.
If you dislike Hepler's writing style, get in touch with her and tell her why.Send her an e-mail or phone her or stop by the Edmonton studio (I think she's based there) and list out your grievances. Surely one does not need to resort to slander...?

[jesuno]

Imported_beer wrote...

jesuno wrote...

Wait, Destructoid provided a factual account by listing everyone that was rude to Hepler? Did they report about his apology before the article went up? Who cares who is threatening this guy's children, but he is being singled out in a big way. I not saying Bioware has to make a donation on his account, but saying that bile should not be combated with more bile would do nothing but help their image.

I thought you were stating Bioware was not being the better company. And the destructoid article I read was more "this is what happened". Can you provide a link so that I can understand which specific article you are referring to?

If he apologized, I think it is proper for them to note it (as an edit if his apology happened after the article went up). And I have already agreed in my previous that those threatened his family are as bad as those who threatened Jennifer's, even if they think they are justified. Anger just prolongs sorting the mess out.

But when people think it is legitimate to argue with name caling and personal threats if there is a legitimate criticism buried behind the "kill yourself" threats, I don't think it gets sorted out easy.

I think we are talking about the same article, but here it is:
http://www.destructo...et-222206.phtml
The paragragh about the "****ing moron" paints this guy as the ring leader and the only one Flynn responded too (there were several), and I ran through this guys twitter feed and the only thing he told Hepler was that she was cancer, which he did apologise for. People are going after him on bad info (much like they did to Hepler), and after pleading to Destructoid he was told no dice.

I was not insinuating that Bioware was a bad company, any money given to a good charity is great. But, if you are against cyberbullying, you cannot just be against it when it is one of your own.

[Big Papa Gall]

[inappropriate post removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 22 février 2012 - 03:24 .

[Mezinger]

Bravo for supporting Jennifer Hepler! Haters are going to hate, like idiotic sports rioters! Say no to bullies and bozos!

[AtreiyaN7]

Tommy6860 wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

bsphil wrote...

Posting on Twitter is not a reflex.  No matter what, you can take the time to compose yourself.  A GM of a regional Bioware office ought to know better than to post reactively on a public account.  It's just as indefensible. 

You know what I think? I think his response was both human and welcome, even defensible despite it not being the greatest idea. Why? Because it shows loyalty to a fellow company employee and support for her against people who put the worst side of human behavior on public display for everyone to see.

EDIT: And I might have told that tool who made the cancer comment to <bleep> off too if I'd been in Flynn's position.

Your edit gets my response:

In no way is it acceptable. I understand the defensible part, but other words could have been used. While it may have been human and I relate to that, I wouldn't call it welcome. There are better means for a person to have shown support, one of them is not engaging in ad hominem and personal attacks.

I've repeatedly pointed out that it wasn't a great idea, but I also recognize that they're only human. And I don't think that saying <bleep> off to someone is an ad hominem or much of a personal attack - it's an angry emotional response and one that certainly seems warranted given the threats made against Hepler. Like I basically said, I don't care how unprofessional it was, in a similar situation, I'd be telling those people to <bleep> off.

You do realize that there were actual physical threats made against Hepler, yes? Now I agree with you that one should avoid ad hominems and personal attacks, but in this specific case, I think it was a welcome response (for me personally) in showing that he obviously cared enough on a personal level to defend her so vigorously even though it was not the greatest idea to do so in that manner.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 22 février 2012 - 03:22 .

[Pacifien]

bsphil wrote...
Stop the censorship of BioWare forums--

I think I'll just snip the quote right there and focus solely on this particular statement.

BioWare does read the forums to some extent, but it's not the sole venue where they read and provide feedback. There is actually a much broader purpose to these forums that has very little to do with the involvement of BioWare employees; people discuss every aspect of the BioWare games with each other.

People ask where can they voice their honest opinion--as open, sharp, biting, and perhaps curse-laden as it can be--directly to the company that made the product. People also ask where they can discuss every aspect of the game from story lore to stratagem with like-minded individuals.

You're asking BioWare to provide a forum for both kind of people. And I speak from some personal experience that providing the latter while dealing with the former leads to no one being happy. Something has to give, and all you see is censorship.

[Imported_beer]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

If you dislike Hepler's writing style, [snip] stop by the Edmonton studio  and list out your grievances. Surely one does not need to resort to slander...?

I can't help but imagine this scenario. Jennifer all jumpy after all those "die" and "kill yourself now" comments. Then some poor dude takes your advice and lands up at the office.
Dude: Hello! I dislike your writing and i have this..
Jennifer: AAAH! *Peppersprays him*

But sadly that is what a vocal nasty minority does. Every group in this world has them and gets painted by the same brush. I worry developer/writer appearances in the main forums will keep dropping steadily, they are already around less than they were in the old forums. It is not because of criticism. It is because people call them up in their house and urge that they kill themselves, solely because they didn't like what they wrote.

[RedMageNeko]

I'm glad to see Bioware standing up for a valued employee. She did not deserve the abuse these "people" subjected her to, nor does ANYONE. You guys have always taken great pride in opening yourself to company feedback and I know this is an issue in doing so. The internet is sadly a breeding ground for abuse. I sincerly hope you ban each and every one of these individuals from your services. People NEED to be shown there are consequences to their actions.

[Meta0X]

You guys are awesome. I don't care what anyone else says. You guys are just awesome.

Keep on being awesome.

[ScottishMartialArts]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

 Wrong - I never said that people should be ignored. I said that we are NOT OBLIGATED to listen to them if we don't respect an individual - like in situations where people resort to using hateful speech and bullying others to try to get their points across.

You realize that that's a very subtle distinction, and that 99% of the time there will be no difference between the two cases, right? To be honest, I didn't pick up on the distinction until you made it explicit just now, so thank you for saying it clearly.

And if you've taken a dislike to me for debating with you these past few posts, that's certainly your perogative, and, like I said earlier, it's a very human response. I don't think it was entirely necessary though since this whole discussion began when I responded to someone else, and you felt the need to defend them. If anyone should be mad at me, it should probably be the person I originally responded to.

At any rate, enjoy your raid. WoW, TOR, or something else?

[jesuno]

Pacifien wrote...

bsphil wrote...
Stop the censorship of BioWare forums--

I think I'll just snip the quote right there and focus solely on this particular statement.

BioWare does read the forums to some extent, but it's not the sole venue where they read and provide feedback. There is actually a much broader purpose to these forums that has very little to do with the involvement of BioWare employees; people discuss every aspect of the BioWare games with each other.

People ask where can they voice their honest opinion--as open, sharp, biting, and perhaps curse-laden as it can be--directly to the company that made the product. People also ask where they can discuss every aspect of the game from story lore to stratagem with like-minded individuals.

You're asking BioWare to provide a forum for both kind of people. And I speak from some personal experience that providing the latter while dealing with the former leads to no one being happy. Something has to give, and all you see is censorship.

Oh, what do you know? 

[ScottishMartialArts]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I've repeatedly pointed out that it wasn't a great idea, but I also recognize that they're only human. And I don't think that saying <bleep> off to someone is an ad hominem or much of a personal attack - it's an angry emotional response and one that certainly seems warranted given the threats made against Hepler. Like I basically said, I don't care how unprofessional it was, in a similar situation, I'd be telling those people to <bleep> off.

See? We're in agreement that tough talk is sometimes necessary.

[Costin_Razvan]

Every group in this world has them and gets painted by the same brush. I worry developer/writer appearances in the main forums will keep dropping steadily

I am kinda worried what will happen if they actually target Gaider. I do dislike a LOT of the things he has done with DA but I do have to say that his forum posts were quite a welcome sight, especially in the DA:O forums.

[Brockololly]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Not saying the mob should be sympathized with, simply that seeing where they come from might stop future attacks. One quick look at a few of their posts and one can see that they're planning on raiding other employee twitters, it's only going to get worse if there's nothing made to appease or shut them down. It's either going to end once every twitter is set to private, something is done to appease them or they're shut down in some other manner.

Edit: According to /v/, Gaider is next.

Exactly, /v/ and those trolls want attention. BioWare lashing back with insults is simply feeding the trolls. It may be absolutely justified based on the pointless personal attacks being made, it might be totally justified and feel really great, but its escalation nevertheless. Hell, wasn't that the big theme trying to be made in Dragon Age 2?

[bsphil]

Pacifien wrote...

bsphil wrote...
Stop the censorship of BioWare forums--

I think I'll just snip the quote right there and focus solely on this particular statement.

BioWare does read the forums to some extent, but it's not the sole venue where they read and provide feedback. There is actually a much broader purpose to these forums that has very little to do with the involvement of BioWare employees; people discuss every aspect of the BioWare games with each other.

People ask where can they voice their honest opinion--as open, sharp, biting, and perhaps curse-laden as it can be--directly to the company that made the product. People also ask where they can discuss every aspect of the game from story lore to stratagem with like-minded individuals.

You're asking BioWare to provide a forum for both kind of people. And I speak from some personal experience that providing the latter while dealing with the former leads to no one being happy. Something has to give, and all you see is censorship.

And I'm not talking about blatant flaming/attacking/vitriol/etc. being deleted.  I'm talking about legitimate, level-headed discussions being locked or deleted because it's a complaint.

[Imported_beer]

jesuno wrote...

I was not insinuating that Bioware was a bad company, any money given to a good charity is great. But, if you are against cyberbullying, you cannot just be against it when it is one of your own.

I absolutely agree that it cuts both ways. But, the charity is for cyberbullying, and thus is applicable to not just what that guy did but what he faces as well. I mean it is not going to a "Jennifer cookie fund". 

Though...honestly, between you and me, a cookie fund is awesome.

Thanks for the link.

*goes to read article you linked*

[BillsVengenace]

[Please stop spamming that image. It is off-topic for this discussion.]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 22 février 2012 - 03:34 .

[Imported_beer]

Costin_Razvan wrote...


I am kinda worried what will happen if they actually target Gaider. I do dislike a LOT of the things he has done with DA but I do have to say that his forum posts were quite a welcome sight, especially in the DA:O forums.

I agree with you and I think it will be a loss if that happens. Not just for people who like Gaider, but people who disagree with the changes made to Dragon Age and wish to voice legitimate concerns/criticism. I am talking criticism and not "you suck [expletive deleted] because you didn't let me marry Morrigan so you must die a slow painful death of a very specific form of cancer".

I mean...when there is a lot of aggresive and hateful crazy, it tends to drown out the sanity. 

[Tommy6860]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

bsphil wrote...

Posting on Twitter is not a reflex.  No matter what, you can take the time to compose yourself.  A GM of a regional Bioware office ought to know better than to post reactively on a public account.  It's just as indefensible. 

You know what I think? I think his response was both human and welcome, even defensible despite it not being the greatest idea. Why? Because it shows loyalty to a fellow company employee and support for her against people who put the worst side of human behavior on public display for everyone to see.

EDIT: And I might have told that tool who made the cancer comment to <bleep> off too if I'd been in Flynn's position.

Your edit gets my response:

In no way is it acceptable. I understand the defensible part, but other words could have been used. While it may have been human and I relate to that, I wouldn't call it welcome. There are better means for a person to have shown support, one of them is not engaging in ad hominem and personal attacks.

I've repeatedly pointed out that it wasn't a great idea, but I also recognize that they're only human. And I don't think that saying <bleep> off to someone is an ad hominem or much of a personal attack - it's an angry emotional response and one that certainly seems warranted given the threats made against Hepler. Like I basically said, I don't care how unprofessional it was, in a similar situation, I'd be telling those people to <bleep> off.

You do realize that there were actual physical threats made against Hepler, yes? Now I agree with you that one should avoid ad hominems and personal attacks, but in this specific case, I think it was a welcome response (for me personally) in showing that he obviously cared enough on a personal level to defend her so vigorously even though it was not the greatest idea to do so in that manner.

I most certainly respect your opinion and your stance. But I also respectfully disagree to the extent of which I already covered previously .


When one goes the same route as the perp did, it takes away from being a justification, somewhat. But it is what it is. The perp who started the twitter nastiness aganst Jen apologized, though he seems to have done so, more out of getting flamed by his detractors and wanting it to end, than feeling any real contrition for the remarks made.

<_<

[DiebytheSword]

I'm against /b/ style internet justice. It is often disproportionate to the "crime" committed, and reeks of self important people believing their own opinion to be superior because a whole bunch of other hooligans agree with them.

Its akin to tar and feather, good to see we've come so far.

[SnakeStrike8]

Imported_beer wrote...

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

If you dislike Hepler's writing style, [snip] stop by the Edmonton studio  and list out your grievances. Surely one does not need to resort to slander...?

I can't help but imagine this scenario. Jennifer all jumpy after all those "die" and "kill yourself now" comments. Then some poor dude takes your advice and lands up at the office.
Dude: Hello! I dislike your writing and i have this..
Jennifer: AAAH! *Peppersprays him*

But sadly that is what a vocal nasty minority does. Every group in this world has them and gets painted by the same brush. I worry developer/writer appearances in the main forums will keep dropping steadily, they are already around less than they were in the old forums. It is not because of criticism. It is because people call them up in their house and urge that they kill themselves, solely because they didn't like what they wrote.

Oh, come now. Surely no-one's going to top themselves just because a faceless wanker told them to!
...Right?

[Anarya]

ConcernedPeanut wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I wasn't going to post in this thread because arguing on the internet never accomplishes anything but oh well, here I go anyway:

It DOESN'T MATTER what you think of Ms. Hepler's writing or what she tweeted in frustration, the abuse she is receiving over her opinions is 100% out of line. Don't like her writing or the direction you think Bioware is heading? That's perfectly fine. Criticize her work, that infamous tweet, or the company all you want to, but there's a difference between criticizing the games you feel passionate about and hurling abuse at a person for who they are. And I don't care what terrible crimes against gaming you think she's committed, there is NO CIRCUMSTANCE under which calling her house with harrassment or driving her off Twitter is acceptable. 

And don't pretend like sexism is dead and didn't have anything to do with this. It doesn't matter that the initial complaint might have been about the actual writing, bringing gendered slurs into the equation and harrassing Hepler for having the audacity to work in gaming while being a female who doesn't look like she stepped out of Maxim makes it partially about her gender. You can't tell me that it's not about gender when Hepler and people who supported her on twitter are getting called fat/stupid/illiterate/ugly fangirls who are ruining gaming. But rage impotently on social media all you want to, really. Gaming is changing to accomodate people who aren't the 18-to-34-year-old straight white male and there's nothing you can do about it. 

to the people who understand the difference between criticism and abuse: keep on keepin' on because this post is obviously not directed at you. 

and to Bioware: You're doing the right thing by publicly and officially voicing support for Ms. Hepler in this, and I was pleased to see other Bioware employees coming to her defense on Twitter.

Sexism isn't dead, but it had nothing to do with this. /v/ hate on Todd Howard just as much.
You're right about the abuse - she didn't deserve it. However it does paint the people with more educated opinions about her - and her companies work - as haters who are in line with the trolls. 
The trolls know whats wrong with the games they complain about - they just don't know how to say she, or Bioware in general, is doing a bad job without resorting to harassment, spam and immature verbage.

You can't claim sexism had *nothing* to do with this. Might it have happened anyway to a male developer who said what she said? Possibly, but you won't convince me his maleness or his sexual attractiveness would be the subject of the insults. 

And so what if some of the trolls might have valid complaints under all the vitriol? Are we supposed to give them a free pass on their behavior? They need to be called out on it because silence implies what they're doing is ok by the majority.

[jesuno]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Every group in this world has them and gets painted by the same brush. I worry developer/writer appearances in the main forums will keep dropping steadily

I am kinda worried what will happen if they actually target Gaider. I do dislike a LOT of the things he has done with DA but I do have to say that his forum posts were quite a welcome sight, especially in the DA:O forums.

I thought that they had already gone after Gaider, but when he came out and said that there were problems with DA2 he was let off.

[Morroian]

bsphil wrote...

But just what can Bioware do to appease these people?

Stop the censorship of BioWare forums and be more open to discussion with people who happen to not like the game?  That'd go pretty far in terms of smoothing things over.  Censoring whatever you don't want to hear results in turning a distraught fan into an angry former customer.

What censorship? Cause from my time here they've been very tolerant of letting discussions criticising them stay open so long as the discussion is civil.  Heck this thread is an example of that.

Do you have links to unjustly locked threads?

[thatguy212]

I'm still waiting for an apology statement by Aaryn Flynn, his comments were very unprofessional, when dealing with people that use childish insults you should never resort to them yourself, it doesn't matter that they were insulting her, everyone knows to just ignore bullies