1876 réponses à ce sujet

[schythe1]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Generics wrote...

*snips umpteenth pointless defense of internet jerks*

No, because Hepler's been subjected to this treatment for months and made a snarky comment (not nice, but given what she's dealt with somewhat understandable). The fans weren't voicing their opinions either - they were being flat-out hateful and spiteful based on an interview from six years ago mixed with some comments that weren't even hers. Telling someone to <bleep> off is not bullying btw. Bullying is the kind of harassment that Hepler was subjected to.

This is like talking to a brick wall.  

No it should not have happened, I believe an event was bound to.

How is this defending anyone?

[schythe1]

RinjiRenee wrote...

schythe1 wrote...

All I am syaing is that some kind of situation was inevitable and this is the form it took.  If anything I think she got was a victim between bioware abusing it's fans and the fans abusing them back.

What fans are you talking about here?  I have never felt abused by Bioware.

That does not mean that other have not.

I know several people that felt they were being abused or felt that others were and just as you not feeling abused does not mean it did not happen them being abused does not mean it did but if enough people feel this way and the company takes no action to try and resolve obvious conflicts then argument start and incidents happen.  

That and the mass post deletings feel heavy handed are all I am trying to say

[Rinji the Bearded]

schythe1 wrote...

This is like talking to a brick wall.  

No it should not have happened, I believe an event was bound to.

How is this defending anyone?

You are defending it by saying that it's inevitable that a person will get viciously harrassed and attacked, therefore enabling those who did.

[Imported_beer]

Xanatos Chimera wrote...
FWIW, I agree with you.  Well said.

Thank you. It was a rage post.

schythe1 wrote...
I am not trying to justify it I am saying that I believe that given the road bioware has been on an outburst was inevitable.   I also feel that the rest of the points in my post still stand.

I will say two things here.

First, I see criticism of bioware daily. I see all kinds. Some are rational and well argued. Some...make me wonder what they are smoking. But they are there, so maybe I am not seeing the extent of fascism you seem to have experienced. But even so, my second point is the important one.

No one forces you to act like a jerk (general humanity "you" not you personally and applies to all yous that follow. None of them refer to you). If you feel Bioware is no longer listening, what most sane people do is take their business elsewhere. Why should you keep associating with a company that you think unfairly censors you, never listens to what you have to say, and is moving in a direction you don't agree with? Normal people don't go around finding scapegoats, and calling them all those names for months. Normal people don't say people have a right to say that because she is shaping gaming in a direction they don't like and do so for months.. Normal people don't flip out like that and sustain it for months.

I can understand a nasty exchange if a person is really upset but this was sustained harrassment. I don't care what Bioware does. Man, I have disagreed with them vehemently. I have gotten in trouble with them once. And despite buying every game they made since their Black Isle games I will never touch ME3 with a bargepole. But there is a difference between an angry outburst and remaining nasty.

So my point is, the sustained harrassment of Jennifer Hepler was not because of their moderation. It was because some people chose to express their rage in supremely crazy and prolonged ways. But that is just my opinion.

[Morroian]

schythe1 wrote...

If that were an isolated incident it would be fine but this kind of thing keeps happening, TOR is another example. I played the game for a little while and during my time on the TOR forums I saw many posts and entire threads deleted because they dissagreed with bioware and while I am not denying that there were also posts that were made with the intention of being troll ****fests this does not mean that any and all criticism is trolling and should be removed.
 

I read a lot of posts before they were removed and suffice it to say theywere removed for a reason. They weren't removed for simple disagreement with Biwoare.

schythe1 wrote...

No, Hepler did not deserve this but how long can you belittle and abuse your clients before they get angry and lash out at the nearest scape goat?

How long what abuse? Any remarks from Bioware staff came well after the harrassment had started.

Modifié par Morroian, 22 février 2012 - 05:52 .

[schythe1]

RinjiRenee wrote...

schythe1 wrote...

This is like talking to a brick wall.  

No it should not have happened, I believe an event was bound to.

How is this defending anyone?

You are defending it by saying that it's inevitable that a person will get viciously harrassed and attacked, therefore enabling those who did.

No.

I am saying that it should not have happened to her or anyone else but that it was inevitable.

Example (not related): if you were mean to someone for long enough they would tell you off, possibly in a violent manner.  Knowing this is a possible or definite outcome does not mean you support it but it does mean that you can see it coming.  

That is realy all I was saying about the event.

[AtreiyaN7]

schythe1 wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

schythe1 wrote...

*snip* 

I'm just not even bothering to quote that. There's no censorship of dissenting opinions when they've actually been respectfully voiced. There were several that I saw earlier - you don't like Hepler's writing/style? That's certainly fine, but there's no need to throw around namecalling and worse. The only threads that I've seen deleted (when I've actually paid attention to the forums) have had trolling/hateful crap in them, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

As for what happened to Hepler, seriously, don't make excuses. She's not blame, and I don't care how out of sorts fans are about not getting responses they want/communication/whatever from BioWare - everything that happened was uncalled for and there was just no reason for it no matter how upset people are that they didn't like DA2 or the direction that ME2 went in or whatever else their problem is with the company and the games.

I am not making excuses.  What happened was not right and I said that but I also said that something was bound to happen and she was just a convenient target.  

And yes they have been deleting reasonable posts and this is not the first thread they have done that in.  

Again I feel like the rest of my post is valid and you just want to say I am defending peopl ethat abused her.  I have said they were wrong.

All I am syaing is that some kind of situation was inevitable and this is the form it took.  If anything I think she got was a victim between bioware abusing it's fans and the fans abusing them back.

They're not abusing the fans. I can't recall seeing them calling people here idiots or morons on a repeated basis or telling them they deserve to be fired or that they suck (on the other hand, that's what some alleged fans feel free to do on a regular basis).

Furthermore, that guy I responded to in here (don't remember his name) who linked his allegedly "reasonable" post was far from civil in that post. I read it and found that it contained language that was definitely insulting, so some people certainly have a different view of what constitutes reasonable and civil language. You can track down my post if it wasn't edited and go read it yourself. If the mods are now being more stringent, too bad. That's the result of people acting out, and almost everything that's been removed/deleted in here (I've seen a lot of the posts before they got snipped) most assuredly deserved to be deleted.

[John Epler]

I'm going to say this one more time, and then we're done with this particular tangent.

We do not censor criticism. There are a number of people who have been openly and consistently critical of the direction they feel we've taken, and they remain uncensored. We constantly have threads open that are, themselves, quite critical, and they remain uncensored. We have a firm commitment to the notion that criticism and critique are one of the best ways to grow as developers. I (and many others, including those in positions of far greater importance than mine) have engaged with our fans in a variety of instances. We discuss criticism. We look at where people are coming from.

What we do not tolerate, nor will we ever tolerate, is abuse. Particularly against our employees. Moreover, there are a very clearly defined set of rules that everyone agrees to when they sign up to this website. When people find they are unable to follow those rules, that's when disciplinary action occurs. It's rarely what you say, it's how you say it. I'll just as quickly ban someone who's pro-BioWare who acts like an idiot and insults other posters as I will someone who's anti-BioWare.

As to the immediate - this is not a topic we're discussing in this thread. Full stop. I've brought it up once more because I felt it important to distinguish between 'I got banned because I said something negative' and 'I got banned because I broke the site rules, insulted a developer and happened to say something negative in the process.'

If you have problems with the way the site is moderated, as was previously mentioned - talk to Chris, or post it in Off-Topic. Not the thread for it.

[tigrina]

Nevermind.

Modifié par tigrina, 22 février 2012 - 05:55 .

[schythe1]

Morroian wrote...

schythe1 wrote...

If that were an isolated incident it would be fine but this kind of thing keeps happening, TOR is another example. I played the game for a little while and during my time on the TOR forums I saw many posts and entire threads deleted because they dissagreed with bioware and while I am not denying that there were also posts that were made with the intention of being troll ****fests this does not mean that any and all criticism is trolling and should be removed.
 

I read a lot of posts before they were removed and suffice it to say theywere removed for a reason. They weren't removed for simple disagreement with Biwoare.

schythe1 wrote...

No, Hepler did not deserve this but how long can you belittle and abuse your clients before they get angry and lash out at the nearest scape goat?

How long what abuse? Any remarks from Bioware staff came well after the harrassment had started.

I am not talking about what was said during the event. the forums have for a long time seems like a place that kills thoughts that re not super supportive of any and all bioware decisions.

but the things that were said during the event by the staff were not nice do serve to illustratre my point from the other point of view.  How much abuse could they or she take before responding in anger?

[mate209]

[Inanity removed]

Modifié par JohnEpler, 22 février 2012 - 05:57 .

[burum8967]

Imported_beer wrote...


Here is a quote from an article that talks about the things that were said to her:
Hepler has been called "****," "Jew," "****," and "****." She's been criticized for her gender, her appearance, and
her religion. Attacks on her have referenced  Hitler, bestiality, rape, murder, cannibalism, and
prostitution. 


In addition, people have given her really nasty nicknames told her to kill herself, called her a cancer, called her up at home. 

A lot of this has happened for months.

I don't care how much you think Bioware sucks. I don't care how much you think she sucks as a writer. I don't see any justification for such behavior. None. I can't see any justification for adding any "buts" to your categorical rejection of behavior like this. No "this wouldn't happen if Bioware moderated differently". No "this wouldn't happen if she hadn't made a snarky statement" 3 months after this started. No buts.

This is just nasty, nasty, nasty stuff that I cannot imagine anyone "justifying". And many people did. Some did so vehemently. Some did in the "this is wrong, but...BIOWARE!" way. But people have defended this behavior and I never ever thought I'd see people do that.

/I am a nobody. I will never influence anyone. My rant is just to get my rage off my chest. 

I completely agree. I don't understand such horrible behavior. I understand having a dislike or hate for a product or some part of a product, but turning that into a crusade against a person is just beyond me. It is too bad that the Web is such a great invention/tool/privilege but it gets so mucked up by such angry and hateful people.

I love the Dragon Age world, be it games or novels, I sincerely hope this doesn't stop her from working on them in the future.

[Ariellog]

Wait I thought the heat that Bioware got for DAII was that it was TOO combat heavy and less story driven, So ..ummm WTF?

any who supported.

P.S I just found out about the whole incident on Gamespot

[schythe1]

JohnEpler wrote...

I'm going to say this one more time, and then we're done with this particular tangent.

We do not censor criticism. There are a number of people who have been openly and consistently critical of the direction they feel we've taken, and they remain uncensored. We constantly have threads open that are, themselves, quite critical, and they remain uncensored. We have a firm commitment to the notion that criticism and critique are one of the best ways to grow as developers. I (and many others, including those in positions of far greater importance than mine) have engaged with our fans in a variety of instances. We discuss criticism. We look at where people are coming from.

What we do not tolerate, nor will we ever tolerate, is abuse. Particularly against our employees. Moreover, there are a very clearly defined set of rules that everyone agrees to when they sign up to this website. When people find they are unable to follow those rules, that's when disciplinary action occurs. It's rarely what you say, it's how you say it. I'll just as quickly ban someone who's pro-BioWare who acts like an idiot and insults other posters as I will someone who's anti-BioWare.

As to the immediate - this is not a topic we're discussing in this thread. Full stop. I've brought it up once more because I felt it important to distinguish between 'I got banned because I said something negative' and 'I got banned because I broke the site rules, insulted a developer and happened to say something negative in the process.'

If you have problems with the way the site is moderated, as was previously mentioned - talk to Chris, or post it in Off-Topic. Not the thread for it.

I have no desire to argue with you and I was not.  Hoever this is something I have seen, it may not be your official policy but it happens on many forums run by your company and this is a criticism I have and it is being presented in the most civilized way I can think to present it.

[schythe1]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

schythe1 wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

schythe1 wrote...

*snip* 

I'm just not even bothering to quote that. There's no censorship of dissenting opinions when they've actually been respectfully voiced. There were several that I saw earlier - you don't like Hepler's writing/style? That's certainly fine, but there's no need to throw around namecalling and worse. The only threads that I've seen deleted (when I've actually paid attention to the forums) have had trolling/hateful crap in them, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

As for what happened to Hepler, seriously, don't make excuses. She's not blame, and I don't care how out of sorts fans are about not getting responses they want/communication/whatever from BioWare - everything that happened was uncalled for and there was just no reason for it no matter how upset people are that they didn't like DA2 or the direction that ME2 went in or whatever else their problem is with the company and the games.

I am not making excuses.  What happened was not right and I said that but I also said that something was bound to happen and she was just a convenient target.  

And yes they have been deleting reasonable posts and this is not the first thread they have done that in.  

Again I feel like the rest of my post is valid and you just want to say I am defending peopl ethat abused her.  I have said they were wrong.

All I am syaing is that some kind of situation was inevitable and this is the form it took.  If anything I think she got was a victim between bioware abusing it's fans and the fans abusing them back.

They're not abusing the fans. I can't recall seeing them calling people here idiots or morons on a repeated basis or telling them they deserve to be fired or that they suck (on the other hand, that's what some alleged fans feel free to do on a regular basis).

Furthermore, that guy I responded to in here (don't remember his name) who linked his allegedly "reasonable" post was far from civil in that post. I read it and found that it contained language that was definitely insulting, so some people certainly have a different view of what constitutes reasonable and civil language. You can track down my post if it wasn't edited and go read it yourself. If the mods are now being more stringent, too bad. That's the result of people acting out, and almost everything that's been removed/deleted in here (I've seen a lot of the posts before they got snipped) most assuredly deserved to be deleted.

Then we must not have been referring to the same post.  

[Rinji the Bearded]

schythe1 wrote...

No.

I am saying that it should not have happened to her or anyone else but that it was inevitable.

Example (not related): if you were mean to someone for long enough they would tell you off, possibly in a violent manner.  Knowing this is a possible or definite outcome does not mean you support it but it does mean that you can see it coming.  

That is realy all I was saying about the event.

 And we're just supposed to accept that kind of behavior because "we can see it coming?"  People are responsible for their own actions and we should not enable them by saying "oh well it will inevitably happen."

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 22 février 2012 - 05:59 .

[Morroian]

schythe1 wrote...

I am not talking about what was said during the event. the forums have for a long time seems like a place that kills thoughts that re not super supportive of any and all bioware decisions.

Um no there has been plenty of criticism of DA2 that has been allowed to be posted since it was released.

schythe1 wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Furthermore, that guy I responded to in here (don't remember his name) who linked his allegedly "reasonable" post was far from civil in that post. I read it and found that it contained language that was definitely insulting, so some people certainly have a different view of what constitutes reasonable and civil language. You can track down my post if it wasn't edited and go read it yourself. If the mods are now being more stringent, too bad. That's the result of people acting out, and almost everything that's been removed/deleted in here (I've seen a lot of the posts before they got snipped) most assuredly deserved to be deleted.

Then we must not have been referring to the same post.  

I've now seen the post and if anything Atreiya is understating it, the post was clearly not acceptable. It was not just simple criticism of Bioware. 

Modifié par Morroian, 22 février 2012 - 06:01 .

[tigrina]

There are plenty of means to make your voice heard, even if said company doesn't want to host it.

That is in no way or shape an excuse for the harassment that has taken place.

[AtreiyaN7]

RinjiRenee wrote...

schythe1 wrote...

This is like talking to a brick wall.  

No it should not have happened, I believe an event was bound to.

How is this defending anyone?

You are defending it by saying that it's inevitable that a person will get viciously harrassed and attacked, therefore enabling those who did.

What Rinji said. Honestly, it's talking to people like you that reminds me of smacking my head against a brick wall. I'm not sure that some of you even realize how what you're saying comes across. When you say that something is inevitable, it more or less implies that the blame lies with the victim. It's nice that you don't approve of what was said, but despite that you're coming across as defending the vile crap that happened.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 22 février 2012 - 06:03 .

[schythe1]

RinjiRenee wrote...

schythe1 wrote...

No.

I am saying that it should not have happened to her or anyone else but that it was inevitable.

Example (not related): if you were mean to someone for long enough they would tell you off, possibly in a violent manner.  Knowing this is a possible or definite outcome does not mean you support it but it does mean that you can see it coming.  

That is realy all I was saying about the event.

 And we're just supposed to accept that kind of behavior because "we can see it coming?"  People are responsible for their own actions and we should not enable them by saying "oh well it will inevitably happen."

I never said accept it.  In fact I was trying to say it was preventable.  

Why does everyone insist on continuing this inane assertion that I think it was right of them to do this?

[syllogi]

schythe1 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

schythe1 wrote...

This is like talking to a brick wall.  

No it should not have happened, I believe an event was bound to.

How is this defending anyone?

You are defending it by saying that it's inevitable that a person will get viciously harrassed and attacked, therefore enabling those who did.

No.

I am saying that it should not have happened to her or anyone else but that it was inevitable.

Example (not related): if you were mean to someone for long enough they would tell you off, possibly in a violent manner.  Knowing this is a possible or definite outcome does not mean you support it but it does mean that you can see it coming.  

That is realy all I was saying about the event.

No, actually, it is not inevitable that people would take a six year old interview out of context, combine that with a fake photoshopped forum quote, and decide that the individual targetted deserves harassment both on the internet and through phone calls.  I don't believe that level of ignorance, stupidity, and hatred is inevitable.

[Bladefist_01]

I am going to ask this directly to a moderator, not one of you regulars who just spout the same arguments incessently. What is your (Biowares) statement on the comments made by YOUR employees. I simply want to know what will happen about them. Because, provoked or not, they were not appropriate.

Thank you.

[Reptilian Rob]

Bladefist_01 wrote...

I am going to ask this directly to a moderator, not one of you regulars who just spout the same arguments incessently. What is your (Biowares) statement on the comments made by YOUR employees. I simply want to know what will happen about them. Because, provoked or not, they were not appropriate.

Thank you.

Most likely Ding Dong Bannu. 

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 22 février 2012 - 06:02 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Morroian wrote...

schythe1 wrote...

I am not talking about what was said during the event. the forums have for a long time seems like a place that kills thoughts that re not super supportive of any and all bioware decisions.

Um no there has been plenty of criticism of DA2 that has been allowed to be posted since it was released.

Quite so - there have been tons of critical posts in the DA2 forums that have stayed put. The ones that got axed were things like the "Mike Laidlaw deserves to be fired" kind of crap, etc. There may have even been a DIAF thread, but I'm not sure since it's been a while since I've visited the cesspit that this place seems to have turned into.