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[Reptilian Rob]

Jahannam wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

There's seems to be a lot of double standards, like the fact that Flynn and Hepler are getting away with calling the fanbase virgins and morons.

Still, not saying who is right or wrong here, I'm just saying you shouldn't call the kettle black when you are the pot.

When I come at you on the street you have a right to defend yourself. After months of this garbage they said something and they are in the wrong?

Thing is nothing can be done to the people that said all that garbage...yet what do you want? Hepler and Flynn to suffer some consequense for it?

No, they did nothing wrong per se'. I just think they should (along with everyone else) forget about it and move on. The sooner they do, the less idiots like Reddit will feed off of it.

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 22 février 2012 - 08:12 .

[Jahannam]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Jahannam wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

There's seems to be a lot of double standards, like the fact that Flynn and Hepler are getting away with calling the fanbase virgins and morons.

Still, not saying who is right or wrong here, I'm just saying you shouldn't call the kettle black when you are the pot.

When I come at you on the street you have a right to defend yourself. After months of this garbage they said something and they are in the wrong?

Thing is nothing can be done to the people that said all that garbage...yet what do you want? Hepler and Flynn to suffer some consequense for it?

No, they did nothing wrong per se'. I just think they should (along with everyone else) forget about it and move on. The sooner they do, the less idiots like Reddit will feed off of it.

I could ignore cancer does that make it better? Its nice this kinda thing is getting some light because ignoring it sure as heck has not made it go away or get better.

[Reptilian Rob]

Jahannam wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Jahannam wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

There's seems to be a lot of double standards, like the fact that Flynn and Hepler are getting away with calling the fanbase virgins and morons.

Still, not saying who is right or wrong here, I'm just saying you shouldn't call the kettle black when you are the pot.

When I come at you on the street you have a right to defend yourself. After months of this garbage they said something and they are in the wrong?

Thing is nothing can be done to the people that said all that garbage...yet what do you want? Hepler and Flynn to suffer some consequense for it?

No, they did nothing wrong per se'. I just think they should (along with everyone else) forget about it and move on. The sooner they do, the less idiots like Reddit will feed off of it.

I could ignore cancer does that make it better? Its nice this kinda thing is getting some light because ignoring it sure as heck has not made it go away or get better.

Well, the differance here is...It's not cancer. 

[Jahannam]

Oh my friend it is and its gotten worse over the 15 years I have been watching the internet. Its become acceptable to be a jerk.. Its about high time someone stops ignoring it and starts at the least calling people on it.

[Sister Goldring]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

There's seems to be a lot of double standards, like the fact that Flynn and Hepler are getting away with calling the fanbase virgins and morons.

Still, not saying who is right or wrong here, I'm just saying you shouldn't call the kettle black when you are the pot.

I don't know but I guess it's probably because a statement can't be defamatory when it's true.

Sorry, couldn't resist. 

[Sagacious Rage]

I would say that the bullies are in the wrong. Not the people who have completely human reactions to a vicious, unwarranted, months-long attack.

If anything, what Flynn and Hepler said was too mild.

Also it boggles my mind that Hepler is the one who is being targeted for the perceived failures of DA2 when, in my opinion, the writing was the high point of the game.

[BellaStrega]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

There's seems to be a lot of double standards, like the fact that Flynn and Hepler are getting away with calling the fanbase virgins and morons.

Still, not saying who is right or wrong here, I'm just saying you shouldn't call the kettle black when you are the pot.

There's something wrong with one's worldview when they look at a situation that's developed over several months to a year during which a group of people have harassed one person to the point of calling her at her own home, and notice that after all this treatment over a long period of time, she made one snarky comment... and decide that the real problem is that the target of this sustained bullying is in the wrong for responding.

This isn't a double standard. What she said, what Aaryn said, compared to the provocation that they were responding to? No comparison. Not the same ballpark, not the same league or even the same sport.

It is ridiculous that calling out bullies is seen as exactly as bad as engaging in bullying over a period of months.

[Eternal_Lord]

It's pretty terrible what those people did and they should be ashamed of themselves but I also understand the frustration that these gamers are experiencing. I am in no way justifying or condoning what they did but Jennifer, and BioWare itself, deserves criticism for that comments that she's made about "skipping combat/gameplay." Video games are unique because of the interactive nature of the medium and adding options like skipping gameplay sections entirely defeats the whole purpose of being a video game and that's gameplay.

Perhaps Jennifer needs to find another hobby or job because it seems to me that she, and some of the folks at BioWare, are actually looking for a "choose you own adventure book" and not a video game.

[bear hello]

More reason for me to avoid reddit. blugh.

[syllogi]

Bullying doesn't stop when people ignore it.  The faked forum post has been floating around for at least a year, and this is just a culmination of attacks on Ms. Hepler.   Her twitter account is not held accountable to Bioware, she has the right to have opinions in her own space.

Read up on victim blaming and bullying before blaming Hepler and Flynn for having perfectly valid reactions to all of this.

And this thread exists in order to allow those who support Ms. Hepler to have a place to post.  I'm sure those who are righteously outraged by Ms. Hepler's comments can find some other spot on the internet to commiserate with other entitled children.

[AerosmithNirvana]

It seems like the people who say it needs dropped are the ones who keep coming back and leave variations of the same comments over and over again....

Anyhoo, I support her. She got friggin' death threats and people actually calling her, and responds with some mild snark. Seriously? That seems more than reasonable to me. Heck, I thought it was pretty funny. What seems unreasonable is that ANY of it happened in the first place. Complaining at about it (having a different opinion of favoured game-play) at all is childish enough. Taking it beyond that is horrendous. Do marketing artists have love everything about every product their art gets placed on? If they don't, does that actually go against being an artist? Do editors have to like every book and story they edit? If they don't, does that mean that cannot like reading? It's ridiculous think any of that makes sense. And they're being hypocrites in doing so! They're favourite part is the hacking and slashing, so they probably skip through the dialogue (and that's okay). Her favourite part is the dialogue, so she likes to see more of that (equally okay). Personally, I think she has great talent regardless. I wish her all the best.

[AtreiyaN7]

BellaStrega wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

There's seems to be a lot of double standards, like the fact that Flynn and Hepler are getting away with calling the fanbase virgins and morons.

Still, not saying who is right or wrong here, I'm just saying you shouldn't call the kettle black when you are the pot.

There's something wrong with one's worldview when they look at a situation that's developed over several months to a year during which a group of people have harassed one person to the point of calling her at her own home, and notice that after all this treatment over a long period of time, she made one snarky comment... and decide that the real problem is that the target of this sustained bullying is in the wrong for responding.

This isn't a double standard. What she said, what Aaryn said, compared to the provocation that they were responding to? No comparison. Not the same ballpark, not the same league or even the same sport.

It is ridiculous that calling out bullies is seen as exactly as bad as engaging in bullying over a period of months.

I agree with Bella - it's not a double standard when the person being harassed and bullied stands up to the bullying. That one can equate the two as being on the same level is bizarre to me. Flynn calling someone out and telling them to <bleep> off after that person has said something vile isn't anything even remotely like the bullying all those people engaged in for months now. And ignoring the bullying or just letting it drop only means it will keep happening. It's not okay, and it shouldn't be ignored. To say that they should just let this all go and ignore it also strikes me as bizarre.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 22 février 2012 - 08:33 .

[Jahannam]

Eternal_Lord wrote...

It's pretty terrible what those people did and they should be ashamed of themselves but I also understand the frustration that these gamers are experiencing. I am in no way justifying or condoning what they did but Jennifer, and BioWare itself, deserves criticism for that comments that she's made about "skipping combat/gameplay." Video games are unique because of the interactive nature of the medium and adding options like skipping gameplay sections entirely defeats the whole purpose of being a video game and that's gameplay.

Perhaps Jennifer needs to find another hobby or job because it seems to me that she, and some of the folks at BioWare, are actually looking for a "choose you own adventure book" and not a video game.

Im a janitor at a bank. Does my idea of they way I think investments should be handled make ANY difference in the way the bank operates? No...My job is to make sure the toilets and countertops are clean. My opinion means nothing.

Jennifer is a writer and thats it. If someone wants to ask her what she thinks gameplay should be and she gives her opinion how does that effect anything gamewise? Her job is to write and she is doing her job.

She does not need to be on the same page as the rest of the team. She only has to do her job and work with them

[Sagacious Rage]

Eternal_Lord wrote...

It's pretty terrible what those people did and they should be ashamed of themselves but I also understand the frustration that these gamers are experiencing. I am in no way justifying or condoning what they did but Jennifer, and BioWare itself, deserves criticism for that comments that she's made about "skipping combat/gameplay." Video games are unique because of the interactive nature of the medium and adding options like skipping gameplay sections entirely defeats the whole purpose of being a video game and that's gameplay.

Perhaps Jennifer needs to find another hobby or job because it seems to me that she, and some of the folks at BioWare, are actually looking for a "choose you own adventure book" and not a video game.

You realize there's more to gameplay than combat, right? LIke dialogue (which you can already skip) as well as puzzles, stealth, crafting, collecting, platform sequences, any variety of decision making, etc.

There are plenty of gaming genres in which combat is the sole point of the entire game. An option to skip combat in an first-person shooter would be ludicrious. But the Dragon Age series is not a first-person shooter. It's a role-playing game. 

The only reason the majority of role-playing games even have combat is because of convention. There's no real reason why you can't make a role-playing game with absolutely no combat in it at all, let alone give the option to skip it if the player desires. 

[Darth Krytie]

Eternal_Lord wrote...

It's pretty terrible what those people did and they should be ashamed of themselves but I also understand the frustration that these gamers are experiencing. I am in no way justifying or condoning what they did but Jennifer, and BioWare itself, deserves criticism for that comments that she's made about "skipping combat/gameplay." Video games are unique because of the interactive nature of the medium and adding options like skipping gameplay sections entirely defeats the whole purpose of being a video game and that's gameplay.

Perhaps Jennifer needs to find another hobby or job because it seems to me that she, and some of the folks at BioWare, are actually looking for a "choose you own adventure book" and not a video game.

What boggles my in this entire situation is people harping on her opinion that she would like the OPTION to skip combat. People seem to read this and immediately think: ALL GAMES NOW WILL HAVE NO COMBAT. It's a logical fallacy.



Christ on a crutch. She wants to skip combat. Who cares? If there's a game  with that option offered, don't use it! I never play on Nightmare level difficulty because I honestly don't get the point of adding frustration to my hobby time. Doesn't mean I think it shouldn't exist. Doesn't mean I care about others who use it.



Why do gamers care so much about how other people enjoy their games? As long as the options they want are
in those games, then why does optional content you can choose not to utilize matter? AT ALL?

It's this that makes me so angry about this situation. She didn't change games. She didn't automagically disappear combat from games. She didn't actually DO anything except voice a personal opinion. Yet, people are acting as if her voicing her opinion on the matter was tantamount to waving wand and forcing people to utilize optional content that doesn't even exist.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 22 février 2012 - 08:35 .

[BellaStrega]

Eternal_Lord wrote...

It's pretty terrible what those people did and they should be ashamed of themselves but I also understand the frustration that these gamers are experiencing. I am in no way justifying or condoning what they did but Jennifer, and BioWare itself, deserves criticism for that comments that she's made about "skipping combat/gameplay." Video games are unique because of the interactive nature of the medium and adding options like skipping gameplay sections entirely defeats the whole purpose of being a video game and that's gameplay.

That same argument applies to dialogue (which can be skipped most of the time) as much as it does to combat, however.

Perhaps Jennifer needs to find another hobby or job because it seems to me that she, and some of the folks at BioWare, are actually looking for a "choose you own adventure book" and not a video game.

Oh, certainly. You can tell how Bioware has a history of failure in the video game market due to this perspective.

Also, if you work in video games, you're only allowed one set of opinions - the one that says video games are perfect as they exist now. Any deviation from the formula must not only be criticized, but punished.

[AerosmithNirvana]

Jahannam wrote...

Im a janitor at a bank. Does my idea of they way I think investments should be handled make ANY difference in the way the bank operates? No...My job is to make sure the toilets and countertops are clean. My opinion means nothing.

Jennifer is a writer and thats it. If someone wants to ask her what she thinks gameplay should be and she gives her opinion how does that effect anything gamewise? Her job is to write and she is doing her job.

She does not need to be on the same page as the rest of the team. She only has to do her job and work with them

Sense. You haz it. 

[Stanley Woo]

Eternal_Lord wrote...

It's pretty terrible what those people did and they should be ashamed of themselves but I also understand the frustration that these gamers are experiencing. I am in no way justifying or condoning what they did but Jennifer, and BioWare itself, deserves criticism for that comments that she's made about "skipping combat/gameplay." Video games are unique because of the interactive nature of the medium and adding options like skipping gameplay sections entirely defeats the whole purpose of being a video game and that's gameplay.

Perhaps Jennifer needs to find another hobby or job because it seems to me that she, and some of the folks at BioWare, are actually looking for a "choose you own adventure book" and not a video game.

Or, instead of suggesting everyone else find a different job so we're no longer in danger of making the kinds of games you don't want, how about you choosing for yourself to not purchase any BioWare game what appears to feature gameplay you don't care for? It would be much simpler and involve you choosing things for yourself, rather than suggesting what other people can or should do with their lives.

NOTE: At no time has BioWare or Electronic Arts marketed Dragon Age 2, Star Wars: The Old Republic, or the upcoming Mass Effect 3, as a "choose your own adventure book".

[BellaStrega]

Sagacious Rage wrote...

The only reason the majority of role-playing games even have combat is because of convention. There's no real reason why you can't make a role-playing game with absolutely no combat in it at all, let alone give the option to skip it if the player desires. 

One thing I appreciate in The Old Republic is that there are a situations scattered throughout the game where plotlines are handled almost entirely via dialogue, or at least situations where you can skip fights with the right dialogue options. I like that the addition of dialogue as a gameplay element in this game has expanded on the available options in an MMORPG so that avoiding combat can be actually be as interesting as the combat itself.

[esper]

Eternal_Lord wrote...

It's pretty terrible what those people did and they should be ashamed of themselves but I also understand the frustration that these gamers are experiencing. I am in no way justifying or condoning what they did but Jennifer, and BioWare itself, deserves criticism for that comments that she's made about "skipping combat/gameplay." Video games are unique because of the interactive nature of the medium and adding options like skipping gameplay sections entirely defeats the whole purpose of being a video game and that's gameplay.

Perhaps Jennifer needs to find another hobby or job because it seems to me that she, and some of the folks at BioWare, are actually looking for a "choose you own adventure book" and not a video game.

Choose your own adventure books style viode-games exits and they are viode-games as well, and nobody says that the writer have to like anything, but writing. Bioware obviously don't place Jennifer in charge of the combat sequences, so what is the problem? She is entitled to her opinion and doesn't need to change job just because she doesn't love everything the other teams does.

Also the comment is apperently six-year old and taken out of context. How do you and we know that she still feels exactly that way.

[Cheep Cheep Cheep]

Sagacious Rage wrote...

Eternal_Lord wrote...

It's pretty terrible what those people did and they should be ashamed of themselves but I also understand the frustration that these gamers are experiencing. I am in no way justifying or condoning what they did but Jennifer, and BioWare itself, deserves criticism for that comments that she's made about "skipping combat/gameplay." Video games are unique because of the interactive nature of the medium and adding options like skipping gameplay sections entirely defeats the whole purpose of being a video game and that's gameplay.

Perhaps Jennifer needs to find another hobby or job because it seems to me that she, and some of the folks at BioWare, are actually looking for a "choose you own adventure book" and not a video game.

You realize there's more to gameplay than combat, right? LIke dialogue (which you can already skip) as well as puzzles, stealth, crafting, collecting, platform sequences, any variety of decision making, etc.

There are plenty of gaming genres in which combat is the sole point of the entire game. An option to skip combat in an first-person shooter would be ludicrious. But the Dragon Age series is not a first-person shooter. It's a role-playing game. 

The only reason the majority of role-playing games even have combat is because of convention. There's no real reason why you can't make a role-playing game with absolutely no combat in it at all, let alone give the option to skip it if the player desires. 

Yep and some games already have a 'skip combat' option.. i.e. LA Noire. The gameplay of LA Noire did not suffer for having this option - it was still a unique game, and IMO the best parts were gathering clues, investigating and interrogating - not the combat. You can have an interactive gaming experience without combat. It's not a big deal.

aannndd another example is Deus Ex.. which gave you options to sneak away from possible combatants or talk your way out of combat situations. Probably one of the only flaws of Human Revolution was the forced boss fights. Bottom line... choice. Not a bad thing.

Modifié par Cheep Cheep Cheep, 22 février 2012 - 08:43 .

[Eternal_Lord]

Jahannam wrote...

Eternal_Lord wrote...

It's pretty terrible what those people did and they should be ashamed of themselves but I also understand the frustration that these gamers are experiencing. I am in no way justifying or condoning what they did but Jennifer, and BioWare itself, deserves criticism for that comments that she's made about "skipping combat/gameplay." Video games are unique because of the interactive nature of the medium and adding options like skipping gameplay sections entirely defeats the whole purpose of being a video game and that's gameplay.

Perhaps Jennifer needs to find another hobby or job because it seems to me that she, and some of the folks at BioWare, are actually looking for a "choose you own adventure book" and not a video game.

Im a janitor at a bank. Does my idea of they way I think investments should be handled make ANY difference in the way the bank operates? No...My job is to make sure the toilets and countertops are clean. My opinion means nothing.

Jennifer is a writer and thats it. If someone wants to ask her what she thinks gameplay should be and she gives her opinion how does that effect anything gamewise? Her job is to write and she is doing her job.

She does not need to be on the same page as the rest of the team. She only has to do her job and work with them

I'm sorry but that is an absolutely terrible analogy. I mean no disrespect to you and your profession, but your job as a janitor has no impact on the workings of the bank while the writing in a video game is an integral part of the experience as is a writers role in the development of a game.

On Irrational Games' podcast a few months back, Ken Levine talked about how annoyed he gets when people who apply for a job at Irrational that don't even consider video games to be their favorite or second favorite hobby. He goes on to say "Why the **** would you want to have a career in an industry that you aren't passionate about!?" It seems to me that Jennifer is passionate about writing and not video games. Perhaps she should get into writing books because games are about gameplay and the industry as well as the fans should embrace that. The day the that video games don't focus on gameplay is the day they stop being video games. If you want nothing but story go read a book or watch a movie.

[BellaStrega]

Actually, it's kind of interesting. I've worked in the tabletop gaming industry, and one thing professionals do is spend a lot of time discussing how things could be done differently, or how things like social interactions can be made more fun. The kind of thing Jennifer said about skipping combat is, to me, pretty typical of the kinds of things professionals say - not the specific opinion, but talking about different ways to do things, or finding new things to do. But, somehow, this one thing, from a six-year old interview, has become write so large in some people's minds that they feel they must defend their right to criticize it (did anyone tell them not to criticize it?) or simply abandon criticism and descend into rage- and contempt-fueled rants intended to dehumanize Ms. Hepler just because of one thing she said six years ago that might in some distant and tenuous sense, have some connection to the addition of completely optional play modes in Mass Effect 3?

It is profoundly entitled to not just criticize when someone involved in game design suggests a possibility that you disagree with, but to actually say that a game developing studio should have no right to develop games with features you do not want, and that people who want such features should leave their careers behind to suit your individual tastes.

[Zaxares]

While I think that some of Jennifer's comments (particularly the stuff she later made on Twitter) were not the best of things to say to a rabid geek/gamer community, she has a right to her opinion and would understandably feel on the defensive after all that's happened.

That said, I think the conduct of the people harassing and attacking Jennifer is downright appalling. Real-life harassment of any kind is over the line. It's like the Ocean Marketing fiasco all over again. It shows the ugly side of the gamer community, and frankly, that's something we need to step back from and say "No" to.

As far as the "skipping combat/gameplay" comments are concerned... yes, I'm against it. I think that putting an "I win" button into a game defeats the entire purpose of a video game. BUT I acknowledge that as gamers grow older, take on more responsibilities, start families etc., anything that helps them still remain involved in the hobby they love can only be a good thing. (As long as it stays optional! Let's make that very clear.) Similar to the introduction of the Action/RPG/Story mode in ME3, it raised my eyebrows at first, but after reflection, I begin to understand WHY it was done, and why it might be a good idea to have another option to cater to different types of players.

The Bioware of today is not the Bioware of 20 years ago, when they made games like Baldur's Gate. That's undeniably true. However, nothing in life remains the same. Everything has to keep changing and evolving, or it'll get left behind, stagnate and die. Game companies have to keep experimenting and trying new things, or we'll just end up with Modern Warfare clones rolled out year after year. Some things will work, some things won't, and our role as gamers is to let the devs know, in a reasonable, civilised fashion, what we liked, and what we didn't.

[Darth Krytie]

Eternal_Lord wrote...]I'm sorry but that is an absolutely terrible analogy. I mean no disrespect to you and your profession, but your job as a janitor has no impact on the workings of the bank while the writing in a video game is an integral part of the experience as is a writers role in the development of a game.

On Irrational Games' podcast a few months back, Ken Levine talked about how annoyed he gets when people who apply for a job at Irrational that don't even consider video games to be their favorite or second favorite hobby. He goes on to say "Why the **** would you want to have a career in an industry that you aren't passionate about!?" It seems to me that Jennifer is passionate about writing and not video games. Perhaps she should get into writing books because games are about gameplay and the industry as well as the fans should embrace that. The day the that video games don't focus on gameplay is the day they stop being video games. If you want nothing but story go read a book or watch a movie.

Her job at Bioware is to write. It seems perfectly fine. Her job isn't game design or combat animations, so what does it matter? She said she'd like an option to skip. She didn't say all games should have no combat. So, why does it matter if she wants optional content you would never even notice existed unless you personally chose to utilize it?