1876 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Her job at Bioware is to write. It seems perfectly fine. Her job isn't game design or combat animations, so what does it matter? She said she'd like an option to skip. She didn't say all games should have no combat. So, why does it matter if she wants optional content you would never even notice existed unless you personally chose to utilize it?

Because when you're writing for the medium and don't enjoy it's strengths, you're putting a divide between cutscene and gameplay which takes steps backwards away from what video games should be striving for. Should any game feature the literal "skip gameplay" button, I'd question why the audience which demands such things simply doesn't buy movies.

Look upon Half Life 2, it wasn't the strongest in terms of narrative and it did have it's "cutscene" moments but it never detracted from the experience. We should be moving ahead with immersion, player involvement and other things rather than stepping back into the clear divide. We should be expanding upon these concepts, not sheltering ourselves because people who don't like gaming want to watch the cut scenes.

A script writer who hates movies wouldn't last long if he / she is not writing around the potential for film.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 février 2012 - 09:21 .

[esper]

Eternal_Lord wrote...

Sagacious Rage wrote...

Actually, here's something Jennifer herself said in the original interview (taken from this Forbes article about the incident)

Since I started working in paper-and-pencil RPGs, I’ve loved the gaming audience and how passionate they are about their games. Through my whole time in Hollywood, I always gravitated toward game-related projects, and when I went to GDC in 2005, it was like coming home. When I realized how much more I liked the people in the games industry than in film and television…and how much more passionate they were about their jobs…I began to actively pursue a full-time career in gaming.

Oh looks like she does love working in video games. Imagine that. 

Oh look, at no point in that quote does it once say she joined the industry because of her love of video games, rather the people working on them is what drew her in. Video games should be made by gamers, not people who like gamers or the idea of video games.

Video games should not be made by only gamers, there is no law. In fact someone who is completley devoted to their section might just make their section better. And again: I think it would be nice if combat was skipable is not the same as saying I don't like video games. Video games and escpially RPG's are not only combat.

[Jahannam]

Eternal_Lord wrote...

Sagacious Rage wrote...

Actually, here's something Jennifer herself said in the original interview (taken from this Forbes article about the incident)

Since I started working in paper-and-pencil RPGs, I’ve loved the gaming audience and how passionate they are about their games. Through my whole time in Hollywood, I always gravitated toward game-related projects, and when I went to GDC in 2005, it was like coming home. When I realized how much more I liked the people in the games industry than in film and television…and how much more passionate they were about their jobs…I began to actively pursue a full-time career in gaming.

Oh looks like she does love working in video games. Imagine that. 

Oh look, at no point in that quote does it once say she joined the industry because of her love of video games, rather the people working on them is what drew her in. Video games should be made by gamers, not people who like gamers or the idea of video games.

And good luck with that, alot of people in the industry started elswhere and found their way here. When I was a kid I wanted to be a veterinarian. Videogames should be made by people that want to make them....not just those that play them

[AerosmithNirvana]

Markgraf wrote...

What's surprising is how many still choose to ignore that the majority of the criticism leveled against Ms. Hepler is done on account of her shoddy writing. Have you actually read her book, www.goodreads.com/book/show/2139643.M_I_T_H_? Not to mention that there are many capable women in the industry who are not being persecuted as part of this so-called mysoginism, such as Guild Wars's Ree Soesbee, who actually has a Ph.D. in literature, compared to Ms. Hepler's own B.A. in English, or Jade Raymond, who produced the first two Assassins' Creed games and now heads her own studio within Ubisoft. It's actually safe to say that there are male developers out there who have received much more in the way of hate than Ms. Hepler has. Heck, anyone here even know who John Romero is?

Maybe not, but we sure as heck know who Anders is.
Yeah, I know her career's been such a failure and nobody buys the stuff she's worked on. Wait, how did you end up in a DA forum, again? Oh, yeaaaaaah.

[Markgraf]

AerosmithNirvana wrote...

Markgraf wrote...

What's surprising is how many still choose to ignore that the majority of the criticism leveled against Ms. Hepler is done on account of her shoddy writing. Have you actually read her book, www.goodreads.com/book/show/2139643.M_I_T_H_? Not to mention that there are many capable women in the industry who are not being persecuted as part of this so-called mysoginism, such as Guild Wars's Ree Soesbee, who actually has a Ph.D. in literature, compared to Ms. Hepler's own B.A. in English, or Jade Raymond, who produced the first two Assassins' Creed games and now heads her own studio within Ubisoft. It's actually safe to say that there are male developers out there who have received much more in the way of hate than Ms. Hepler has. Heck, anyone here even know who John Romero is?

Maybe not, but we sure as heck know who Anders is.
Yeah, I know her career's been such a failure and nobody buys the stuff she's worked on. Wait, how did you end up in a DA forum, again? Oh, yeaaaaaah.

Anders, you mean the character that was written so poorly any sort of character continuity was thrown out the window?
Simply "ending up in a DA forum" does not lend license to her writing abilities. There are other parts of the game that are done an excellent manner in which she had no involvement, such as the combat.

[Eternal_Lord]

BellaStrega wrote...

And the essential core of RPGs isn't combat. The point of an RPG is to offer the experience playing a character and directing their decisions. Combat isn't required for this, it's simply a popular adjunct to the genre.

It's a popular adjuct to the genre because it's a core part of the genre. 

Take a look at the game Planescape: Torment for example. If one so chooses to skip nearly all combat in the game, it is entirely doable. The difference here is that skipping the combat is a gameplay decision and a manipulation of the game design in the game on the part of the player; not some skip combat option or button.

[BellaStrega]

Eternal_Lord wrote...

Oh look, at no point in that quote does it once say she joined the industry because of her love of video games, rather the people working on them is what drew her in. Video games should be made by gamers, not people who like gamers or the idea of video games.

You're splitting hairs. You've also took an astoundingly ridiculous stance just so you don't have to back off from your "Jennifer Hepler shouldn't work on video games" stance.

She also is a gamer, as she's talked about playing video games, which is how she thought about the possibility of skipping combat (an option that does exist in at least one game: L. A. Noire) in the first place.

Why don't you bolt that goalpost down and leave it alone?

[AerosmithNirvana]

Markgraf wrote...

AerosmithNirvana wrote...

Markgraf wrote...

What's surprising is how many still choose to ignore that the majority of the criticism leveled against Ms. Hepler is done on account of her shoddy writing. Have you actually read her book, www.goodreads.com/book/show/2139643.M_I_T_H_? Not to mention that there are many capable women in the industry who are not being persecuted as part of this so-called mysoginism, such as Guild Wars's Ree Soesbee, who actually has a Ph.D. in literature, compared to Ms. Hepler's own B.A. in English, or Jade Raymond, who produced the first two Assassins' Creed games and now heads her own studio within Ubisoft. It's actually safe to say that there are male developers out there who have received much more in the way of hate than Ms. Hepler has. Heck, anyone here even know who John Romero is?

Maybe not, but we sure as heck know who Anders is.
Yeah, I know her career's been such a failure and nobody buys the stuff she's worked on. Wait, how did you end up in a DA forum, again? Oh, yeaaaaaah.

Anders, you mean the character that was written so poorly any sort of character continuity was thrown out the window?
Simply "ending up in a DA forum" does not lend license to her writing abilities. There are other parts of the game that are done an excellent manner in which she had no involvement, such as the combat.

Yes, Anders, the character that is one of the most favourites for most DA players. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't make it awful - it makes it awful to YOU. Again, that's your opinion. I happen to like the noncombat parts of the game. You play it your way. I'll play it mine. You guys are so childish.

[Gotholhorakh]

I hope Jennifer is OK. While one might expect disagreement, even violent disagreement with one's opinions, being afraid to express your thoughts for fear of an irrational lynch mob who will get personal with you? That's horrible oppressive sovet union style crap.

I hope she girds herself with the proper philosophical attitude to take to these people.

BellaStrega wrote...
I'm sure the troglodytes involved in it are fairly clear on what they were doing. This is certainly about misogyny and about women as acceptable targets, and the perception that gaming as a hobby belongs to men.  I recall a few pages back (5 or 6?) a couple of posters claimed with apparently straight faces that sexism had nothing to do with the reaction (belied, of course, by the use of multiple misogynist slurs and the misogynist tirades against Jennifer).

I was responding to the immediately previous posts in which one poster said that everyone who wants to design games in a manner he doesn't care for should leave Bioware.

I think it's more an issue of these people's backward attitudes coming to the fore when they're angry (ie: this STUPIDWOMAN has said this, this presumptuous empty-headed woman *knuckledrag*) - after the fact than any initial desire to drive a visible woman from the limelight.

It is revealing and it's horrid, but on a purely rational level I would not ascribe to intentional machinations what can easily be explained by the pettiness and spite of human nature that we all know so well. I genuinely think we would see a similar reaction to Gaider saying it if not worse - sans caveperson sexism and pro caveperson, say, slurs about sexuality.

This all boils down to the fact that lots of the people who call themselves the gaming community are mentally twelve, or act like it under the veil of anonymity.

From their perspective, somebody speaking on behalf of a video games company has come right out and said "you know what? Gameplay is basically anathema to me" and lots of these "personas" have failed to grasp the basic and obvious fact that as a skilled professional in a specialised arena she is not necessarily as passionate about the bits she has no hand in. Instead they have opted for gathering at the castle gates with torches and pitchforks now, and asking questions later.

I have worked with all kinds of dedicated and talented people who couldn't give a stink about the specialised work I'm doing, and vice versa, as long as we're all confident in each others' abilities and the end result.

When these people get jobs and live in the now, they might realise it's more or less commonplace.

As for the comment - in a public context it was possibly ill-advised, and it certainly was guaranteed to provoke a negative reaction, and certainly you should expect and weather one if you go there - but to be honest the response extending into the domain of persecution is moronic.

BellaStrega wrote...
 the continual exposure to
toxic attitudes about women

Which is maddening. Weirdly not the most prevalent form of prejudice on BSN by far though. I'm not sure that's even preferable, though, and it saddens me to think that human prejudice can never be expunged, but must swing this way or that like a giant pendulum of stupid.

BellaStrega wrote...
The
final straw for that experience was on a different (also
company-sponsored) forum where someone asked why women don't play
strategy games, and numerous men exclaimed that women were biologically incapable
of enjoying strategy games, and shouted down anyone (like myself) who
pointed out that perhaps the dudebro gaming culture where you have 10
posts by men making "there are no women on the internet jokes" for every
post by a woman in a thread about women gamers might be severely
offputting, and may not reflect true gameplay demographics.

The thing is that while it may not, I suspect that it does in fact reflect true gameplay demographics more often than not, don't you?

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 22 février 2012 - 09:42 .

[Eternal_Lord]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Her job at Bioware is to write. It seems perfectly fine. Her job isn't game design or combat animations, so what does it matter? She said she'd like an option to skip. She didn't say all games should have no combat. So, why does it matter if she wants optional content you would never even notice existed unless you personally chose to utilize it?

Because when you're writing for the medium and don't enjoy it's strengths, you're putting a divide between cutscene and gameplay which takes steps backwards away from what video games should be striving for. Should any game feature the literal "skip gameplay" button, I'd question why the audience which demands such things simply doesn't buy movies.

Look upon Half Life 2, it wasn't the strongest in terms of narrative and it did have it's "cutscene" moments but it never detracted from the experience. We should be moving ahead with immersion, player involvement and other things rather than stepping back into the clear divide. We should be expanding upon these concepts, not sheltering ourselves because people who don't like gaming want to watch the cut scenes.

A script writer who hates movies wouldn't last long if he / she is not writing around the potential for film.

I'm glad at least someone gets it.

[Darth Krytie]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Her job at Bioware is to write. It seems perfectly fine. Her job isn't game design or combat animations, so what does it matter? She said she'd like an option to skip. She didn't say all games should have no combat. So, why does it matter if she wants optional content you would never even notice existed unless you personally chose to utilize it?

Because when you're writing for the medium and don't enjoy it's strengths, you're putting a divide between cutscene and gameplay which takes steps backwards away from what video games should be striving for. Should any game feature the literal "skip gameplay" button, I'd question why the audience which demands such things simply doesn't buy movies.

Look upon Half Life 2, it wasn't the strongest in terms of narrative and it did have it's "cutscene" moments but it never detracted from the experience. We should be moving ahead with immersion, player involvement and other things rather than stepping back into the clear divide. We should be expanding upon these concepts, not sheltering ourselves because people who don't like gaming want to watch the cut scenes.

A script writer who hates movies wouldn't last long if he / she is not writing around the potential for film.

You're taking her quote out of context, for one. And using logical fallacies, for two. And if someone wants to have a skip gameplay button, who cares? It won't change your gaming experience in the least. Why do you need to harsh on someone else's fun because you don't find it fun? It doesn't have any impact on you whatsoever if someone else utilizes optional content.

Jennifer is not actually doing what you're accusing her of doing. She's doing her job, which is writing quests and characters and dialogue. She doesn't even work in the areas you're pointing out. Nor is her influence over it total and complete. She works as a part of a team. She's not destroying the industry. You're assuming she was way more power to control things than she does.

It's entirely baffling how so many people are getting so caught up on a comment she made years ago, while pregnant, in regards to how she wants to spend her free time.

[BellaStrega]

I liked Anders in DA2. The only issue I had with him was mild clashing with the ending of Awakening.

His story arc was actually consistent with who and what he was. I do think the writing was handled well also.

I don't see the point of bringing Hepler's books into this - it looks like more goalpost shifting.

[SilentK]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Hi Everyone

Below, please see a message from BioWare co-founder Dr. Ray Muzyka in regards to the recent attacks on Jennfer Hepler.

Jennifer is a valued, talented employee who has been with BioWare for many years and we hope will be with us for many more. It is awful that a few people have decided to make her a target for hate and threats, going so far as fabricating forum posts and attributing them to her, and singling her out for projects to which she has not contributed (i.e., Jennifer is not even a part of the Mass Effect writing team). All of us at BioWare support and will continue to support Jennifer fully, and are happy to see so many people out there are also supporting her during this difficult time.

 - Dr. Ray Muzyka. Co-Founder of BioWare; General Manager, BioWare Label; Senior Vice President, Electronic Arts



Additionally we will be making a donation of $1000 in Jennifer's name to Bullying Canada. Please feel free to also donate to this worthy cause in support.

Thank you again to everyone who has supported Jennifer and BioWare in this difficult time.

Have been away from the forum and twitter for a while so I missed all of this completely. So very sad to see how some of the gamer-community have treated Jennifer Hepler.

Best wishes to you Hepler, you have my full support!

[AerosmithNirvana]

Also, for those who like the combat and dislike her writing, you CAN skip through. It'll be like she had nothing to do with it. If you don't like it, just skip it and move on and stop giving a crap how others play. And if that's just too hard, play a different game.

[Markgraf]

AerosmithNirvana wrote...

Markgraf wrote...

AerosmithNirvana wrote...

Markgraf wrote...

What's surprising is how many still choose to ignore that the majority of the criticism leveled against Ms. Hepler is done on account of her shoddy writing. Have you actually read her book, www.goodreads.com/book/show/2139643.M_I_T_H_? Not to mention that there are many capable women in the industry who are not being persecuted as part of this so-called mysoginism, such as Guild Wars's Ree Soesbee, who actually has a Ph.D. in literature, compared to Ms. Hepler's own B.A. in English, or Jade Raymond, who produced the first two Assassins' Creed games and now heads her own studio within Ubisoft. It's actually safe to say that there are male developers out there who have received much more in the way of hate than Ms. Hepler has. Heck, anyone here even know who John Romero is?

Maybe not, but we sure as heck know who Anders is.
Yeah, I know her career's been such a failure and nobody buys the stuff she's worked on. Wait, how did you end up in a DA forum, again? Oh, yeaaaaaah.

Anders, you mean the character that was written so poorly any sort of character continuity was thrown out the window?
Simply "ending up in a DA forum" does not lend license to her writing abilities. There are other parts of the game that are done an excellent manner in which she had no involvement, such as the combat.

Yes, Anders, the character that is one of the most favourites for most DA players. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't make it awful - it makes it awful to YOU. Again, that's your opinion. I happen to like the noncombat parts of the game. You play it your way. I'll play it mine. You guys are so childish.

Wow, in no way did you adress any point I make, tangentially adressing any clause that serves as an example with which i construct my argument and proceed to personally insult me. You should reread what I've said and think things through again.

[AerosmithNirvana]

....Pretty sure I did. Anyway. I'm done going back and forth. The bottom line is, if people don't like her writing, they can skip it. Problem solved.

Modifié par AerosmithNirvana, 22 février 2012 - 09:37 .

[BellaStrega]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

I think it's more an issue of these people's backward attitudes coming to the fore when they're angry (ie: this STUPIDWOMAN has said this, this presumptuous empty-headed woman *knuckledrag*) - after the fact than any initial desire to drive a visible woman from the limelight.

You missed my point. The only reason they'd deny it is because they think it's okay and reasonable to assign so much bile and hatred to a woman.

This all boils down to the fact that lots of the people who call themselves the gaming community are mentally twelve, or act like it under the veil of anonymity.

Lots of guys are like this, gamers or not. It's not unique or unusual.

On the one hand, somebody speaking on behalf of a video games company has come right out and said "you know what? Gameplay is basically anathema to me" and lots of these "personas" have failed to grasp the basic and obvious fact that as a skilled professional in a specialised arena she is not arsed about the other bits. Instead they have opted for gathering at the castle gates with torches and pitchforks now, and asking questions later.

She didn't say that at all, though.  She said that she would like to be able to skip combat like other people can skip dialogue. Gameplay is already skippable, but some gameplay is more acceptably skippable than others.

I agree with you that they failed to grasp the obvious fact that she's not designing the combat systems, but if what she wanted were implemented, would it truly destroy games?

It was possibly ill-advised, and it certainly was guaranteed to provoke a negative reaction, and certainly you should expect and weather one if you go there - but to be honest the response extending into the domain of persecution is moronic.

She said it six years ago, and she was expressing her opinion. Why was it ill-advised for her to suggest something that might actually add something to gameplay? I know I would have used it a few times in some RPGs in which fights happen every few feet.

Which is maddening. Weirdly not the most prevalent form of prejudice on BSN by far though. I'm not sure that's even preferable, though, and it saddens me to think that human prejudice can never be expunged, but must swing this way or that like a giant pendulum of stupid.

In my experience, every form of prejudice is prevalent on BSN, not that there's a competition.

The thing is tat while it may not, I suspect that it does in fact reflect true gameplay demographics more often than not, don't you?

No, I suspect no such thing. I'll freely admit that I can't point to anything concrete right this moment, but I seem to recall reading demographics that indicate women are more populous in gaming than a lot of men think or believe (especially those who think women are rare or think everyone claiming to be a woman is really a man so they won't be "tricked" into some flirting with a dude).

[BellaStrega]

Markgraf wrote...

Wow, in no way did you adress any point I make, tangentially adressing any clause that serves as an example with which i construct my argument and proceed to personally insult me. You should reread what I've said and think things through again.

I am sure that if Ree Soesbee said something that dudebro gamers found disagreeable, they'd be off to the races.

She might have already said it, and it's just waiting for someone to dig it up six years later and trigger an internet firestorm. Who knows?

[Jahannam]

Ahh Bella..

Didnt you know on the internet men are men, women are men and children are FBI agents?

Modifié par Jahannam, 22 février 2012 - 09:40 .

[DreGregoire]

Chin up and all that writers of my beloved Dragon Age Series. You all have my support. I am sad to once more see that people think it is okay to personally attack an individual writer for a work that involved multiple teams of individuals, especially when said attackee isn't even the person who had the final say over the entire work. The impression I have gotten is that the diversity of the Dragon Age teams have been what made the games such a huge success. My lack of understanding about pointing to a single person as the doom of the free world aside I am beside myself that people would take these attacks to the extreme that they have.

My thoughts are with Jennifer as she deals with this trying time.

[Dave of Canada]

Screw it, I'm wrong and you're right. Always right.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 février 2012 - 09:42 .

[Darth Krytie]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Screw it, I'm wrong and you're right. Always right.

le sigh. I'm not always right and you know it. I'm only asking for how her stating something in a magazine once, years ago, has actual impact on how games are actually made, especially since she's not actually involved in those areas, and even though her job does impact on gameplay, she's not working alone, in a vacuum, but on a team, with other people who have just as much if not more influence.

I did manage to see what you'd written before you cut it out and I see what you're worried about changing. But it hasn't happened. It hasn't been changed. She hasn't actually done any of those things. So, I fail to see why she should not have a job she so clearly loves and is quite good at (I, personally, have loved her work at BioWare).

[tetrisblock4x1]

syllogi wrote...

Bullying doesn't stop when people ignore
it.  The faked forum post has been floating around for at least a year,
and this is just a culmination of attacks on Ms. Hepler.   Her twitter
account is not held accountable to Bioware, she has the right to have
opinions in her own space.

I don't remember any of the removed context of Heplers quote of 2006 changing a goddamn thing. People don't really care about her motive for wanting a fast foreward button, to skip the combat and go straight to the cut scenes, it's the  whole principle of having one at all that made people rage. It just totally defies the concept of gameplay and makes games into non-games to try and appeal to people who don't like games.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 22 février 2012 - 09:52 .