1876 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

There's seems to be a lot of double standards, like the fact that Flynn and Hepler are getting away with calling the fanbase virgins and morons.

Still, not saying who is right or wrong here, I'm just saying you shouldn't call the kettle black when you are the pot.

There's something wrong with one's worldview when they look at a situation that's developed over several months to a year during which a group of people have harassed one person to the point of calling her at her own home, and notice that after all this treatment over a long period of time, she made one snarky comment... and decide that the real problem is that the target of this sustained bullying is in the wrong for responding.

This isn't a double standard. What she said, what Aaryn said, compared to the provocation that they were responding to? No comparison. Not the same ballpark, not the same league or even the same sport.

It is ridiculous that calling out bullies is seen as exactly as bad as engaging in bullying over a period of months.

Unfortunatly you've gotten your facts wrong, Bella. This didn't blow up until March 8th, 2011, when EA rushed what could have been a potentially amazing game, but ended up a flop for the most part.

Hepler was an unintentional casualty of said fallout, and should have just left Reddit and 4chan to wallow in it's own filth. Instead she ignited the fire by saying things like "They are just jealous that I have a job and a Vagina, something they will never have or get." and then Flynn coming around saying that the gamers THEMSELVES were "****ing morons and should go **** themselves."

You see, the double standard here, or as us Literature majors like to call it "The Coleridgeinan Effect" (Kubla Kahn FTW) is that a higher form of corporate power directly insulted their user base. THAT, is what ignited this whole debacle. The ordeal was pretty low key, with mindless TORtanic jokes and DA2 ramblings until Flynn and Hepler joined in on the nuking. It's like physics, when you put more trittium inside a tamper of uranium and plutonium, the larger the output is going to be. The uranium was 4chan, and the plutonium was Reddit. The trittium was Flynn and Hepler, who ignited the whole mass to critical. 

Again, I'm not saying who is wrong or right. But there is a direct reaction to what transpiered, and there is enough blame to go around. The fact that GROWN ASS adults are bickering back and forth is not helping one bit either, or the fact that the gaming press is so one sided and jaded.

No one is right, no one is wrong. Is Reddit and 4chan a bunch of jerks? Most certainly. Did Hepler and Flynn hit the bee hive with a stick? Yes, yes they did.

The best way to go about this (I myself have been in this same situation for things I have written) is to ignor it. Once you do that, it snuffs out the flame. That's how 4chan and Reddit work, that's how they function at a basic level. You guys give them far too much credit for what they do. Reddit is just a place where jerks meet to complain, and 4chan is a board filled with idiots who think they run the world.

And to all those who keep calling this a "cancer", get real. You don't know what cancer is, and you belittle those brave people who are actually fighting cancer of their own. 

There's always two sides to a story, you just have to look past the narrow view to see it.

The fans attacked first, someone called me a all the worst word in their dictionary, called my home, issued dead threads to me, the very least I would call the attackers back are jerks (and proberly a lot worse), and to be fair BSN as a fan forum is childish and immature a lot of time, so I can understand why the writers lose their cools. And even if Helper said something unfortunate in another forum which has nothing to do with bioware, it is not Bioware's job to do anything about that, but if people are calling her names, because of the work she does for bioware or her words in an interview where she speaks as part of bioware then it is bioware's duty to do something against it.

[SKywalkerza]

Great stuff Bioware!!! It is a pity that mindless people has so much power to assault a person's character and not even be accountable for their actions. Keep on supporting your staff and we will keep on supporting you!

[Gotholhorakh]

BellaStrega wrote...
Lots of guys are like this, gamers or not. It's not unique or unusual.

Let's not take it there - that's dangerously close to reversing the pendulum, that is

On the one hand, somebody speaking on behalf of a video games company has come right out and said "you know what? Gameplay is basically anathema to me" and lots of these "personas" have failed to grasp the basic and obvious fact that as a skilled professional in a specialised arena she is not arsed about the other bits. Instead they have opted for gathering at the castle gates with torches and pitchforks now, and asking questions later.

She didn't say that at all, though.  She said that she would like to be able to skip combat like other people can skip dialogue. Gameplay is already skippable, but some gameplay is more acceptably skippable than others.

Hmm, I don't think we can really affirm that, because this interpretation is not one I think most people would agree with. I would go as far as to say that it would be obvious how lots of people would take it from the off.

However, I'm not saying that's wrong, and I am saying the reaction is wrong.

In a wider context, rational thought in Western society is almost a thing of the past, and this sort of thing is a symptom of that.

Rather than allowing someone to have an opinion, however objectionable, and digest, examine and discuss it like creatures of reason, people at large either have an emotive, out-of-proportion response or a kind of pathetic apathy. It is behaviour little better than that of animals.

I agree with you that they failed to grasp the obvious fact that she's not designing the combat systems, but if what she wanted were implemented, would it truly destroy games?

It was possibly ill-advised, and it certainly was guaranteed to provoke a negative reaction, and certainly you should expect and weather one if you go there - but to be honest the response extending into the domain of persecution is moronic.

She said it six years ago, and she was expressing her opinion. Why was it ill-advised for her to suggest something that might actually add something to gameplay? I know I would have used it a few times in some RPGs in which fights happen every few feet.

I said it was possibly ill-advised, I am undecided on this. The only reason it would be so if it were, would be the way a lot of customers might read it, not whether the opinion was sound.

I make no moral judgements, there is no right and wrong there, there is just whether it would annoy the customers - and tbh I remember reading it I could almost feel the collective hackles of a frickazillion gamers rising.

If that were somebody working with/for me, I would not even try to walk the line of discussing that relatively subtle point, I would simply come out in defence of my colleague because the level of harrassment warrants nothing less than unequivocal flipping of the bird tbh

I applaud BioWare doing the same.

Which is maddening. Weirdly not the most prevalent form of prejudice on BSN by far though. I'm not sure that's even preferable, though, and it saddens me to think that human prejudice can never be expunged, but must swing this way or that like a giant pendulum of stupid.

In my experience, every form of prejudice is prevalent on BSN, not that there's a competition.

Apologies I was using "prevalent" in the sense of its literal meaning "that which is dominant, which prevails", not in the sense which has become widely accepted/applied, but not prevalent, because of poorly written humanities theses.

The thing is that while it may not, I suspect that it does in fact reflect true gameplay demographics more often than not, don't you?

No, I suspect no such thing. I'll freely admit that I can't point to anything concrete right this moment, but I seem to recall reading demographics that indicate women are more populous in gaming than a lot of men think or believe (especially those who think women are rare or think everyone claiming to be a woman is really a man so they won't be "tricked" into some flirting with a dude).

Really? Until relatively recently, I've not seen anything to indicate better than one in four gamers outside of very particular games where female gamers are hugely prevalent.

That said, there is a race to the middle happening, which is great because it means more discerning and numerous gamers

I mean... not more discerning, no... must be careful of that pendulum. Um. :innocent:

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 22 février 2012 - 10:21 .

[BellaStrega]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Unfortunatly you've gotten your facts wrong, Bella. This didn't blow up until March 8th, 2011, when EA rushed what could have been a potentially amazing game, but ended up a flop for the most part.

It's not a flop by any stretch of the imagination. "Disappointing" would be more nearly accurate, and Bioware is making a third installment, which strikes me as unlikely if DA2 were a flop.

Hepler was an unintentional casualty of said fallout, and should have just left Reddit and 4chan to wallow in it's own filth. Instead she ignited the fire by saying things like "They are just jealous that I have a job and a Vagina, something they will never have or get." and then Flynn coming around saying that the gamers THEMSELVES were "****ing morons and should go **** themselves."

There's something wrong with your worldview when you start criticizing and blaming the targets of bullying for standing up to it and responding.

You see, the double standard here, or as us Literature majors like to call it "The Coleridgeinan Effect" (Kubla Kahn FTW) is that a higher form of corporate power directly insulted their user base. THAT, is what ignited this whole debacle. The ordeal was pretty low key, with mindless TORtanic jokes and DA2 ramblings until Flynn and Hepler joined in on the nuking. It's like physics, when you put more trittium inside a tamper of uranium and plutonium, the larger the output is going to be. The uranium was 4chan, and the plutonium was Reddit. The trittium was Flynn and Hepler, who ignited the whole mass to critical.

Every timeline I've read to this point suggests the bullying had been going on well before these comments were made, so I hope you'll forgive me for assuming you're factually wrong, based on other, even journalistic, sources. Surely you're not suggesting that her "you're all virgins" taunt traveled back in time and retroactively prompted /v/ and Reddit users to start abusing her in force.

Again, I'm not saying who is wrong or right. But there is a direct reaction to what transpiered, and there is enough blame to go around. The fact that GROWN ASS adults are bickering back and forth is not helping one bit either, or the fact that the gaming press is so one sided and jaded.

You're equivocating. There isn't any back and forth. She made one comment, and Aaryn made a handful. This was in a response to several months straight of abuse and bullying. That is, by no stretch of the imagination, grown ass adults bickering back and forth."

I, for one, am glad to see the gaming press take a stand against this toxic and misogynist campaign against Jennifer Hepler.

No one is right, no one is wrong. Is Reddit and 4chan a bunch of jerks? Most certainly. Did Hepler and Flynn hit the bee hive with a stick? Yes, yes they did.

Bullying is always wrong.

The bee hive was already attacking, and calling what they said "hitting it with a stick" is sort of like saying that an M-80 destroyed Hiroshima.

The best way to go about this (I myself have been in this same situation for things I have written) is to ignor it. Once you do that, it snuffs out the flame. That's how 4chan and Reddit work, that's how they function at a basic level. You guys give them far too much credit for what they do. Reddit is just a place where jerks meet to complain, and 4chan is a board filled with idiots who think they run the world.

As I said earlier in this thread, I have been in this same situation for things I have written. I find it heartening that Bioware is willing to back up their employees in a situation like this. Unlike what happened in my case (as well as a several others) where the publisher forum was full of everything up to and including death threats and the moderators let it all slide.

All I can say is that ignoring it doesn't make it go away. That's rubbish. That only works in your extremely revisionist account of what happened in this case.

[Lux]

Zaxares wrote...

As far as the "skipping combat/gameplay" comments are concerned... yes, I'm against it. I think that putting an "I win" button into a game defeats the entire purpose of a video game.

Well, if we get past a literal skip combat button, the campaign modes on ME3 wiil have that covered. Figuratively speaking, there will be not one but three different buttons:

Action Mode: the skip dialogue button
Story Mode: the skip combat button
RPG Mode: the classic way

Brilliant.

[Gotholhorakh]

Rojahar wrote...
The idea that Dave can't criticize that philosophy, and criticize a videogame writer who prefers to write games like a book or movie rather than using the medium's strengths, is ridiculous. He isn't one of those people who's stepped over the line or harassed her. I think an unfortunate consequence of this all is that anyone with a dissenting opinion will be accused of what only a few are doing, instead of anyone bothering to read, analyze, and discuss their points.

Agreed, and this is a further example of people's inability to find a response anywhere between captain apathy and the witchfinder general - especially in a mob. Everything said by anyone is gasoline on the fire. Stupid really.

Amusingly, these people (on all sides) are perfect examples of the intellectual deficiency that leads to the dumbing down in games that the "gaming community" laments so bloody noisily.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 22 février 2012 - 10:29 .

[Darth Krytie]

Rojahar wrote...



How does it harm his gameplay experience? Because her influence on the game will be to strife toward the story and gameplay being separate entities, instead of using gameplay to enhance story and story to enhance gameplay. We've actually seen the philosophy of segregating story/gameplay develop more and more with each generation of Bioware games, regardless of Hepler.

The idea that Dave can't criticize that philosophy, and criticize a videogame writer who prefers to write games like a book or movie rather than using the medium's strengths, is ridiculous. He isn't one of those people who's stepped over the line or harassed her. I think an unfortunate consequence of this all is that anyone with a dissenting opinion will be accused of what only a few are doing, instead of anyone bothering to read, analyze, and discuss their points.

He can criticize the philosophy. I have no problem with it. And in his erased post, he made points I actually could understand and agree with, to an extent. So, yes, it's fine. My point is this: Does she influence the game in the manner of which you assume? Does she strive for it to be separate entities? Does she actually do these things in the context of her job?

I never thought he did harass her and I never accused him of such a thing. I did call him out on the fact I don't believe it matters to Person A if Person B uses X optional content.

He explained, in his deleted post, why he does believe such a thing will impact gaming. And I actually understood his concerns. I do, however, believe that there's a way to do it so it won't impact the games the way people fear.

Moreover, I enjoy combat and shooting things as well as cutscenes and dialogues and stories. I do like having multiple ways to complete games. And his suggestion on his wall to add to the gameplay experience is a good one.

I just don't, still don't, and won't unless I've solid proof otherwise, think that Jennifer Hepler doesn't deserve her job because there is no proof that she's doing any of the things to ruin games, in his opinion. The only thing I've witnessed is her work, on a team, to make awesome stories I truly enjoy.

[AerosmithNirvana]

Rojahar wrote..

The idea that Dave can't criticize that philosophy, and criticize a videogame writer who prefers to write games like a book or movie rather than using the medium's strengths, is ridiculous. He isn't one of those people who's stepped over the line or harassed her. I think an unfortunate consequence of this all is that anyone with a dissenting opinion will be accused of what only a few are doing, instead of anyone bothering to read, analyze, and discuss their points.

That might have something to do with choosing this forum to discuss it.

[AstraDrakkar]

Ms. Hepler was hired by Bioware to WRITE. Not to play the games. The only thing that should be required of her, is to write a storyline for the game that is engaging and holds the players interest. Some may have been disappointed the way the story turned out for Anders etc., but that doesn't make her a bad story teller. Who here can honestly say that their jaw didn't hit the floor the first time they saw the Chantry go Jenga. A show stopping performance like that is the mark of an excellent writer no matter whether you liked the outcome or not. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise Ms. Hepler, and there is no excuse for bullying someone with immature insults, just because they don't like their preferences or opinion.

Modifié par AstraDrakkar, 22 février 2012 - 10:32 .

[Eire Icon]

The six year old statement is irrelevant

Everyones opinion on the six year old statement is irrelevant

The only relevant thing to consider here is that the treatment of Jennifer Hepler by so called "Gamers" or "Fans" is absolutely disgusting

What the *~#! is wrong with people

[Bayzent]

If you don't like the gameplay of a game, why spend tons of money in a rather expensive hobby instead of buying a book or a movie, things that cost one third or less of what a game costs and does have a better development on writting most of the time of what games would have...

I mean, nobody is trying to impose their hobbies to you, but honestly it is like playing Warhammer while complaining that you don't like collecting and painting miniatures, or tactics at all...why bother on staying on the first place is beyong my reach of understanding...

Hepler doesn't need to like videogames, that's fine to me, what is on the other hand not ok is by her equating her work with the ones of the programmers who make the gameplay possible. Creating a couple of characters won't take you more than three months if you are dedicated enough to your work, developing an entire functional gameplay would take a group of people from one to three years. By expressing, even as a joke, desire to have all these people's work, to be overlooked and equated to yours is in my opinion disrespectful to your peers and a sign of having an overinflated ego.

Even if they don't take an issue on this, the way I felt when I readed that was the way one feels when somebody makes an extremely racist joke, you know the feel, the one that makes you feel offended as a human being not as a part of one specific group.

But is ok, we all come from different backgrounds and I don't know from where she comes from, so I can't expect she being sensistive enough as a human being to realise this kind of stuff, I ,don't believe she is like other stated ''the cancer of Bioware'' or anything like that. I guess that's subjective enough, nobody seems to dislike a company for the same reasons, some people blame Hepler and Gaider for stuff that I also fail to grasp, some other EA which...well I guess its kind of legit in their worlds...

To me is the attitude they seem to be aiming for, probably encouraged by some fans, that everything they do is perfect. I know you shouldn't try to please everyone but making thing that displeases someone and answering to their displeasure by ''**** you'' is basically the thing that is making me increasingly more detatched on Bioware products.

I know I won't be missed but neither I care, really...I believe that if I make an investment of money, and I get something I don't like, I have the right to complain, it seems that to Bioware and some fans, this is not the case, that somehow you should be thankful that Bioware allows you to buy their products...well this is not how the system works I'm afraid...they don't make games specifically for me, and they charge me for them, so I don't see the point of being thankful because theyr are doing their job and I am paying for them...I mean, if a waiter spits on your hamburger, you don't say ''well at least I am thankful he served me'' do you?

[AstraDrakkar]

Oh, i so hope that Ms. Hepler writes for the next DA2 DLC and it involves the repercussions of bullying in some way. I would just love to play that one. (There will be another DLC....won't there?....please.)

[Stinkface27]

Extremely disappointing. Embarrassing day to be a passionate gamer - thanks for making us all look bad, bullies!

[Leon Lovecraft]

Sorry for not reading whole conversation. I'm at work. But, since I write for games myself, I just have to share my opinion on this.
Whole story went in wrong direction. It's wrong to threat, call people names because of their gender weight and whatever. I agree on that.
But person who don't understand media language (interactive elements, gameplay, spatial storytelling, etc.) not suppose to write for that media. There is not suppose to be a "writer" who "just writes" in a game industry. Well, I know that there are many people like that, but they don't contribute to making video games better.
Jennifer Hepler works for the AAA company, making AAA games. Think about writer for a movie like Avatar, who says that she\\he don't like watching movies and don't understand all those shots, sequences, etc. I'm sorry, but a good game story can't be written by a person who don't like and don't understand games. It's just like a Hollywood writer can't write a good story for a game, just because he wrote good movie scripts. So, BioWare, I really believe, that Jennifer have to be supported since she was bullied, which is always bad, but you have to think twice about giving her a senior writer position for any of your projects.

[Eire Icon]

Donation made to what is a very worthy cause (even though I live in Ireland)

I would urge you all (only if you can spare it of course) to donate if you can and make a very clear statement that Bioware community members and the majority of gamers find behaviour such as this reprehensible unacceptable and disgusting

[tetrisblock4x1]

Whole story went in wrong direction. It's wrong to threat, call people
names because of their gender weight and whatever. I agree on that.

Gender wasn't why this trouble began, to think that you'd have to ignore a whole heap of evidence like the numerous female writers who aren't harassed at all - several of them wrtie for Bioware even. And after seeing her book I doubt that her suddenly appreciating gameplay would transform her into a good writer.

This topic kind of backfired I think. Should have just stickied the announcement and locked it to the general public.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 22 février 2012 - 11:08 .

[BlueMew]

I'll never understand nerdrage. Sure, there are things in the games I'd liked to have turned out different - who doesn't - but any and all *proper* discussion comes to a screeching halt when someone is attacked personally.

Good to see that most of us have at least half a working brain. Let the rest crawl back under the rock they came from.

[Jahannam]

I'm sorry, but a good game story can't be written by a person who don't like and don't understand games. It's just like a Hollywood writer can't write a good story for a game, just because he wrote good movie scripts.

So wrong Im not even going to go into details.

[Aeowyn]

Bayzent wrote...

If you don't like the gameplay of a game, why spend tons of money in a rather expensive hobby instead of buying a book or a movie, things that cost one third or less of what a game costs and does have a better development on writting most of the time of what games would have...

I mean, nobody is trying to impose their hobbies to you, but honestly it is like playing Warhammer while complaining that you don't like collecting and painting miniatures, or tactics at all...why bother on staying on the first place is beyong my reach of understanding...

Hepler doesn't need to like videogames, that's fine to me, what is on the other hand not ok is by her equating her work with the ones of the programmers who make the gameplay possible. Creating a couple of characters won't take you more than three months if you are dedicated enough to your work, developing an entire functional gameplay would take a group of people from one to three years. By expressing, even as a joke, desire to have all these people's work, to be overlooked and equated to yours is in my opinion disrespectful to your peers and a sign of having an overinflated ego.

Even if they don't take an issue on this, the way I felt when I readed that was the way one feels when somebody makes an extremely racist joke, you know the feel, the one that makes you feel offended as a human being not as a part of one specific group.

But is ok, we all come from different backgrounds and I don't know from where she comes from, so I can't expect she being sensistive enough as a human being to realise this kind of stuff, I ,don't believe she is like other stated ''the cancer of Bioware'' or anything like that. I guess that's subjective enough, nobody seems to dislike a company for the same reasons, some people blame Hepler and Gaider for stuff that I also fail to grasp, some other EA which...well I guess its kind of legit in their worlds...

To me is the attitude they seem to be aiming for, probably encouraged by some fans, that everything they do is perfect. I know you shouldn't try to please everyone but making thing that displeases someone and answering to their displeasure by ''**** you'' is basically the thing that is making me increasingly more detatched on Bioware products.

I know I won't be missed but neither I care, really...I believe that if I make an investment of money, and I get something I don't like, I have the right to complain, it seems that to Bioware and some fans, this is not the case, that somehow you should be thankful that Bioware allows you to buy their products...well this is not how the system works I'm afraid...they don't make games specifically for me, and they charge me for them, so I don't see the point of being thankful because theyr are doing their job and I am paying for them...I mean, if a waiter spits on your hamburger, you don't say ''well at least I am thankful he served me'' do you?

Seriously, why is it so difficult for people to understand the difference between constructive criticism and right out personal hate attacks? Stop playing the victim card, it's nothing but sad. 
Additionally, perhaps some people enjoy the story better and want a visual mean to enjoy it. Movies are usually 3 hours long and frankly, imo, they're not really that great. Why can't someone enjoy a long 15 hour story while skipping the combat? It is not your game, so why the hell should you care how other people want to play their games?

[tetrisblock4x1]

I think that story and gameplay are segregated enough without Heplers ideas.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 22 février 2012 - 11:19 .

[Aeowyn]

Leon Lovecraft wrote...

Sorry for not reading whole conversation. I'm at work. But, since I write for games myself, I just have to share my opinion on this.
Whole story went in wrong direction. It's wrong to threat, call people names because of their gender weight and whatever. I agree on that.
But person who don't understand media language (interactive elements, gameplay, spatial storytelling, etc.) not suppose to write for that media. There is not suppose to be a "writer" who "just writes" in a game industry. Well, I know that there are many people like that, but they don't contribute to making video games better.
Jennifer Hepler works for the AAA company, making AAA games. Think about writer for a movie like Avatar, who says that shehe don't like watching movies and don't understand all those shots, sequences, etc. I'm sorry, but a good game story can't be written by a person who don't like and don't understand games. It's just like a Hollywood writer can't write a good story for a game, just because he wrote good movie scripts. So, BioWare, I really believe, that Jennifer have to be supported since she was bullied, which is always bad, but you have to think twice about giving her a senior writer position for any of your projects.

Frankly, this post reeks of so much wrong it's not even funny. One does not need to play video games to understand how their stories are setup. More importantly, one does not have to play BioWare's video games to understand how BioWare's stories are setup. They have a formula which they, quite frankly, seem to be using for the majority of their games.
Additionally, do you honestly believe that she'd be able to write anything without it being approved by the lead writer? A good game story can be written by someone who doesn't like games, as long as they know the difference of book writing and game writing. They don't have to enjoy hours of tedious combat to understand how to write.

[Johanna]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

No, her remark was like sticking a blasting cap into a wasp nest. 

And the amount of humility a person has, is directly related to how a person views their own worth. The less you lash out and project against those who defile you, the more you value yourself and the more your silence speaks to your true worth.

Silence is helpful to the abuser, not the abused.
No one should be expected to take abuse with dignity and grace.