1876 réponses à ce sujet

[Leon Lovecraft]

So wrong Im not even going to go into details.

I don't know what are the reasons for your opinion.
Mine is based on my experience, studies and articles such as this: http://web.mit.edu/c...&narrative.html

I'll quit this conversation, will stay hungry and foolish, and quit playing Bioware games for the sake of much better indie products ^_-

[BellaStrega]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Whole story went in wrong direction. It's wrong to threat, call people
names because of their gender weight and whatever. I agree on that.

Gender wasn't why this trouble began, to think that you'd have to ignore a whole heap of evidence like the numerous female writers who aren't harassed at all - several of them wrtie for Bioware even. And after seeing her book I doubt that her suddenly appreciating gameplay would transform her into a good writer.

This topic kind of backfired I think. Should have just stickied the announcement and locked it to the general public.

It's not a matter of uniform harassment of women in gaming. It's what form that harassment takes. If your primary go-to for insulting a woman is to find insulting ways to call her a woman, you're being sexist. It's hard to see how her gender couldn't possibly play into it when most of what y'all were saying about her was insulting her for being a woman in the first place.

A lot of women in gaming get harassed to varying degrees. Gamers and creators.

[Aeowyn]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

I think that story and gameplay are segregated enough without Heplers ideas.

Deus Ex HR and LA Noire. I urge you to play through those games. Jennifer Hepler isn't the only one with the idea of story mode and skipping gameplay.

[philiposophy]

Aeowyn wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

I think that story and gameplay are segregated enough without Heplers ideas.

Deus Ex HR and LA Noire. I urge you to play through those games. Jennifer Hepler isn't the only one with the idea of story mode and skipping gameplay.

Weirdly enough, I think Deus Ex Human Revolution is a case more counter to what Hepler said, in that it's a game where the narrative and gameplay are shaped like each other: they both deal with themes of intrigue and subterfuge. Or did she specifically say combat rather than gameplay?

In any case my point isn't really relevant because what she said was by no means bad enough to warrant anything like what she's had to put up with. Especially since she said it, what, five years ago? Why did it take so long for people to get so riled by it?

[tetrisblock4x1]

BellaStrega wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Whole story went in wrong direction. It's wrong to threat, call people
names because of their gender weight and whatever. I agree on that.

Gender wasn't why this trouble began, to think that you'd have to ignore a whole heap of evidence like the numerous female writers who aren't harassed at all - several of them wrtie for Bioware even. And after seeing her book I doubt that her suddenly appreciating gameplay would transform her into a good writer.

This topic kind of backfired I think. Should have just stickied the announcement and locked it to the general public.

It's not a matter of uniform harassment of women in gaming. It's what form that harassment takes. If your primary go-to for insulting a woman is to find insulting ways to call her a woman, you're being sexist.

[highly inappropriate comments removed]
Bioware have been pretty bad at public relations lately. Everything they've made until DAII was loved by all, so they were too soft and nothing had prepared them for the huge backlash and so they kind of said some things to ****** the fans off. That's my theory anyway. At least, I don't see the other silent Bioware members with trolls swarming their twitter. Obsidian are infamous for their buggy games, but nobody bullies them for it on twitter but then again they don't treat their critics like dirt and parade their games around as if they're the best games ever.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 22 février 2012 - 05:17 .

[Gotholhorakh]

pants witch wrote...
Silence is helpful to the abuser, not the abused.

No. Welcome to the internet.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 22 février 2012 - 11:34 .

[Jahannam]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

pants witch wrote...
Silence is helpful to the abuser, not the abused.

No. Welcome to the internet.

It used to be ignore the troll and they go away. Now its ignore the troll and they get louder and louder and draw more on board and unleash their army of trollishness until they are engaged...then they troll more.

The trolls like the geth are constantly evolving.

[Johanna]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

pants witch wrote...
Silence is helpful to the abuser, not the abused.

No. Welcome to the internet.

Had I chosen to say, "silence is helpful to the troll, not the trolled," you would very possibly be onto something. Trolling is not synonymous with abuse, for the record.

But, hey, thanks anyway.

[Wolf]

I'm not a fan of EVERYTHING she has written but I find it disgusting that people actually do this. Self-entitled dumbasses...

[Morroian]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Bioware have been pretty bad at public relations lately. Everything they've made until DAII was loved by all, 

ORLY, games like Sonic and Jade Empire ring a bell.

[BellaStrega]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

pants witch wrote...
Silence is helpful to the abuser, not the abused.

No. Welcome to the internet.

No. The internet isn't a special place where abuse is okay or should just be ignored.

[Valcutio]

I fail to see how this is bullying. Perhaps because the word is a button-issue right now you think it can be lumped in but the truth is that the internet is where people get criticized. You put your name out there and you get people launching insults at you.

I get insulted on the internet all the time, as does Stanley Woo, John Epler and more. I don't understand why this is being blown out of proportion. Is it because she's sensitive about it? I just don't get it.

Modifié par Valcutio, 22 février 2012 - 12:29 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Morroian wrote...

What
censorship? Cause from my time here they've been very tolerant of
letting discussions criticising them stay open so long as the discussion
is civil.  Heck this thread is an example of that.

Do you have links to unjustly locked threads?

I agree with this, must have missed it skimming through. There has been a bit of dodgy modding some of it some of it even involving community regulars (is that bound to happen in a big community?), but by and large I think BioWare seem to have room in their house for all opinions and make a constructive effort not to stifle discussion and criticism.

BellaStrega wrote...

No. The internet isn't a special place where abuse is okay or should just be ignored.

I agree with this - which won't surprise you because, as you know, I didn't say it was.

pants witch wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

pants witch wrote...
Silence is helpful to the abuser, not the abused.

No. Welcome to the internet.

Had I chosen to say, "silence is helpful to the troll, not the trolled," you would very possibly be onto something. Trolling is not synonymous with abuse, for the record.

But, hey, thanks anyway.

Well, the abusers in this context are at least in part trolls hailing from /?/ (cover your eyes, Boo!) and bullies, and as such there is no doubt whether I was onto something.

If someone is trying to elicit an emotional response as a means of having power over you, silence towards them is not always helpful to them, indeed it is sometimes helpful to you. On the other hand, speaking to authorities or the public about the issue is good. Silence there would be bad and would be helpful to the abuser.

Not all silence is, therefore, equal in such a situation. Wise maxim does not apply to this context. Fix maxim or apply in different context.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 22 février 2012 - 12:37 .

[Jelefant]

This whole situation has gotten out of control. I feel ashamed that us real RPG veterans are being represented by a bunch of clueless children who can't say much aside from pointing out her morbid obesity and ugliness. The civilized approach to this situation would be a good old online petition for her resignation, with extensive argumentation as to why and how she is destroying this company from the inside. Of course, there's also Gaider and a few others, but Helper has become the scapegoat and it's always easier to attack an individual than the real problem.
Middle school is over, time for you kids to express your concerns like adults do and actually work towards your goals instead of destroying them (in this particular situation, the whole unprofessional approach has made her look like the victim)

Modifié par Jelefant, 22 février 2012 - 12:34 .

[Aggie Punbot]

Jelefant has crafted one of the more elaborate troll posts I've seen in this thread. I would almost admire the talent required to arrange such a thing were it not filled to the brim with such misogynistic sentiments.

Note: I do not use the word 'misogynist' lightly. I think a lot of people throw it around far too casually these days so it's lost all meaning. in this case, though, it is firmly warranted.

[BellaStrega]

Valcutio wrote...

I fail to see how this is bullying. Perhaps because the word is a button-issue right now you think it can be lumped in but the truth is that the internet is where people get criticized. You put your name out there and you get people launching insults at you.

I get insulted on the internet all the time, as does Stanley Woo, John Epler and more. I don't understand why this is being blown out of proportion. Is it because she's sensitive about it? I just don't get it.

It's more like: Organizing a posse to insult you on the internet all the time. Find out wherever you are online and send you harassing messages, get ahold of your phone number and call your home, possibly your workplace, leave death threats and more harassing messages.

She's not being sensitive about it. She created a twitter account and was almost immediately inundated with abusive tweets. She hasn't said a word about all the rubbish said about her for months, and now, after trying to have a twitter account and shutting it down only 14 hours later, she said one thing.

If you don't understand it's not because it's not really happening, it's either because you lack the frame of reference necessary to understand what the problem is, or you think the problem is just normal social interaction in which case being around people is probably ill-advised.

[Jelefant]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Jelefant has crafted one of the more elaborate troll posts I've seen in this thread. I would almost admire the talent required to arrange such a thing were it not filled to the brim with such misogynistic sentiments.

Note: I do not use the word 'misogynist' lightly. I think a lot of people throw it around far too casually these days so it's lost all meaning. in this case, though, it is firmly warranted.

Apparently you do use the word lightly, because there is nothing misogynistic about my post. In fact, I'm rather liberal and always stand against sexism/racism and other sorts of discrimination. I can't imagine the thought process you had to actually end up calling my post misogynistic

[BellaStrega]

Probably the part where you made a point of saying that Hepler is ugly and morbidly obese.

[Gotholhorakh]

Jelefant wrote...

This whole situation has gotten out of control. I feel ashamed that us real RPG veterans are being represented by a bunch of clueless children who can't say much aside from pointing out her morbid obesity and ugliness.

Stay classy.

Jelefant wrote...
...the rest of your post...

...is what you just did.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 22 février 2012 - 12:56 .

[Jelefant]

So I must have said that because she's a woman, not because of what I see. Plus, like I pointed out, I'm not the one making these arguments and I want them to be completely separated from this case.
It's sad how people resort to ad hominem

[Gotholhorakh]

Jelefant wrote...
It's sad how people resort to ad hominem

Which you just did.

I'm sorry, are you under the impression that lacing your comments with below-the-belt insults like "obese" and "ugly" is subtle or clever in some way?

It's not, you know.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 22 février 2012 - 01:00 .

[Jelefant]

Apparently even defending the woman makes me wrong in the eyes of bioware drones. I don't need any approval, all I did was give my 2 cents on how it really is. There's an entire class of concerned gamers who want bioware to be good again but don't resort to pathetic appearance insults.

[BellaStrega]

The same insults you resorted to in a sideways fashion. You didn't come across as defending her.

[Gotholhorakh]

Jelefant wrote...

Apparently even defending the woman makes me wrong in the eyes of bioware drones. I don't need any approval, all I did was give my 2 cents on how it really is. There's an entire class of concerned gamers who want bioware to be good again but don't resort to pathetic appearance insults.

I'm not a bioware drone by any means, quite the opposite in fact.

People are awful for pointing to her morbid obesity and ugliness == you stating that person's fatness and ugliness as fact - hella unnecessary and personal tbh.
The tone of it was quite deliberate too, so cut out the wounded baby seal routine

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 22 février 2012 - 01:12 .

[Jelefant]

Well I'm sorry, if that's not a fact I'll go have my eyes checked