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#1351
ScottishMartialArts

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RinjiRenee wrote...

Or maybe the gameplay designers could give the writers a little more leeway ...  I don't agree that the writers have to know all the nuances of gameplay in order to their job -- perhaps the gameplay designers need to be bit more sensitive to the writers as well?


Sure. My point is that gameplay and writing need to be integrated for a video game to work well as a video game. Towards that end, having both the writers and the designer be conversant in each others language, or even have them be the same people, is a good step. I just don't see any evidence of that in Bioware's products.

And again, I'm not trying to lay all blame at Hepler's feet: video games are a team project and its unfair to single out one specific developer for blame. I'm just saying that when I hear a videogame writer say they don't like actually PLAYING games, I can only shake my head.

#1352
Gotholhorakh

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ScottishMartialArts wrote...
As for Hepler, I'm not trying to lay all of
Bioware's ills at her feet, but instead saying that she's symptomatic of
a larger problem. Were Bioware's writers more tightly involved with the
design process and were they able to speak the language of game design,
you might have a more integrated game-story experience than what
currently exists in Bioware's offerings.



I struggle to see that story integration is a big problem for BioWare. Indeed if anything I'd say it was one thing on which they'd stayed strong regardles of any other decisions they'd made about the games and more specifically the gameplay.

Weirdly, I had the impression that outside of the 'dex (where the only consensus possible is that EVERYTHING is crap) this was popularly held to be the case by you humans.

Let's not forget that Mz Hepler had a hand in Origins - now arguably derivative the story may have been (and not unintentionally so, I think, because it clearly had creative objectives to achieve) but did it strike you as an experience where the writing was not well integrated?



Stanley Woo wrote...
And those who want to post messages of support and positivity are quickly shouted down by those who need to have their say "just so BioWare won't think there are no problems with the game." So it evens out. All you want is fairness, right?


I'm glad nobody needs to justify giving their opinions on the games, good or bad - the invitation to do so is strongly implicit in starting a community, calling it a "social network", encouraging us all to have friends here and making these computer games the main topics of conversation in it.

Whether it's for the purposes of feedback and discussion or "messages of support and positivity", even-handedness is most of the time what people get. Certainly more than almost any similar forum, if not infallibly.

It must be very difficult to maintain an atmospere of free discussion when you have a real life stake in the products and the people discussing it don't, and given the level of faeces-throwing that happens - indeed I expect it gets positively disheartening on a fairly regular basis. This does not go completely unappreciated by the users, you know, even ones who could never be derided as so-called "biodrones".

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 22 février 2012 - 06:32 .


#1353
IhateEA-Mask

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I'm not sure if this is correct place to write, but good luck to Hepler. She doesn't deserve... Well, let's call it politely "whining"(which, I know, is an understatement) she gets from "clearly mature and adult"(sarcasm for those who really think they are justified in their 'whining' and couldn't notice sarcasm) fans of Bioware.

#1354
ICevoL

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Wow... I came to the announcement thread hoping for DA news and find this :crying:

Jennifer Hepler - I am guessing you will not see this, but if you do, know that this gamer appreciates your work in the DA series and hopes this ugliness does not deter you from continuing. I wish you the best and am sending positive vibes your way.

BioWare -- Thank you for publically supporting an employee through a difficult time.  Your donation and written support of Jennifer displays class, and as a customer, I appreciate that. I followed your example and donated to Bullying Canada in Jennifer's name.

Generally speaking -- I find the uproar about the possibility of a "skip combat" option to be a bit odd.  It's not like JH suggested removing combat from games entirely, just that having an option to skip fighting (the same way people can currently skip dialogs) might be beneficial for some people.

For all the "game balance" folks apparently worried about this -- do you also support removing the ability to skip dialogs scenes as the game code allows now?  If not, then it's hard to sympathize with the viewpoint that allowing to skip a fight here and there will somehow damage the integration of story and game play.  Considering it is a RPG, dialogs are just as important as combat IMO.  If you can currently skip one, why not the other?  I am open to hearing arguments on this, presupposing they are logical and not angry, selfish ranting.

While I would not use a "skip combat" button/option the first time (or even the third time) through a game myself, I can see it being a big help on replays. There is a lot of story in the DA games -- different options, different dialogs -- which it would take a lot of play throughs to see, regardless of variables like the DAO origin selections.  Not everyone has the available free time to play through the entire game a dozen-plus times (at 40+ hours each go) with all the required combat sections.  What is the harm in allowing people to (as an example) not fight the hoards of skeletons in the Elven Ruin if they don't want to?  And this is coming from someone who has completed DAO 7 times (working on an 8th now), by the way... yes, the story is that good.  I haven't completed the game 7 times to fight the Archdemon, that's for sure...

Anyway, the source of the issue is not really relevant.  What is important is that Jennifer didn't deserve to be on the receiving end of that type of harassment.  There are no excuses for targeting someone like this -- period and end.

Take care, Jennifer! Please know that some fans are appalled by this behavior and support you 100%

*edit for formatting... forgot how weird BSN is Posted Image

Modifié par ICevoL, 22 février 2012 - 06:58 .


#1355
DemonSaya

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 OK, I'm posting this one thing and then I'll be on my way.

First off, I don't necessarily care for Hepler's writing, and yes, I think Dragon Age 2 could have been handled better.  But having witnessed some of the abuse (yes, abuse) that was hurled her way on Twitter, no one deserves that.  No one.  First off, being overweight has no ability to affect your writing.  It's something that people use to hurt other people.  It was name-calling and mud slinging and nothing more.  Many of the comments and supposed quotes were completely inaccurate.

Second, Hepler doesn't even work at the studio that's working on Mass Effect 3.  She has no effect on the decisions that are made at that studio.  She doesn't write for Mass Effect, she writes for Dragon Age, so if the Mass Effect studio decides to give Shepard gay romance options, that was their decision, not hers.  Their decision to add a story mode was not her decision either.  The fact is, they need to reach a wider demographic than the people that it's been reaching.  Without money, they cannot produce more games and the only way to get the money they need is to give more groups that little something that might encourage them to buy the game.  Besides, not all gamers are white, straight, and male.  And even if you are, not everyone you meet in life is, and let me just say, her writing of Anders hitting on male or female Hawke came across as a real life situation.  We don't always get hit on someone we want to have sex with.

Third, having played the ME3 demo already, and played through the story mode FIRST out of curiosity if nothing more, I found myself pleasantly surprised.  I'm not one of those gamers that plays through a game to get all the most difficult achievements.  I don't have all of the achievements for any of the games I've played.  Often, I find levels on Mass Effect that are harder than veteran extremely difficult for me.  Having a 'casual' mode where you can still play the story without needing to invest the whole of your brain into it was a pleasant surprise.  I'm a mother of two, have a son in elementary school, a husband in Afghanistan (yeah, my husband fights for this 'freedom of speech' you used to abuse a woman), and I don't have all the time in the world to invest into a video game because I work from home.  I would have ended up staying up too late playing this game trying to get through it the first time, just like I've done with nearly every other game I've played.

Fourth, there's a little thing that's been bothering me about this whole situation in general, and maybe I'm out of line for saying this.  I'm sure someone will disagree with m e and call me a femi****, a misandrist, a whatever.  The whole blame, the whole of the hatred, the whole of the epic fiasco bull (explitive) was aimed at one person out of the hundreds who worked on one series of game.  The whole failings of the sacred video game industry was put on the shoulders of ONE PERSON.  And that person happened to be female.  No blame, no hate, no stupidity was aimed at the male lead writer, nor any other employee.  The fact is this, Jennifer Hepler did her job.  A job she's been doing for years, not one that 'a bloke lost' as it was so eloquently put towards me on twitter when I stood up and spoke in her defense.  People saw her post about having a vagina and a game industry job and "OMG, SHE ISN'T RESPECTING US".  And yet, the excuses I got when I called out the misogyny of those twitter posts, pointed out the hatred towards her that wasn't critique, it was just hate was that she wasn't respecting them.  Why should she?  You weren't respecting her, either?  A person can only expect from other people what they, themselves give.  If you want respect, you'd better do something worthy of it.

Now, I'm going to put in a little side-note here, because it's frustrating from the position of a woman who stood aside other fans (not necessarily of Hepler.  Among those who were standing in support were fans of various TV shows, games, movies, books, etc) were subject to the SAME ABUSE.  A friend of mine who survived cancer was told that they hoped she relapsed and died.  Another friend of mine was called a word that is probably out of the terms of use on this forum so I wont say it.  I was called a (explitive) writer, a dirty Jew, and a sexist.  For standing up for a woman who was being abused, we were, in turn, abused.

I keep hearing the "it was just criticism" excuse, but it wasn't.  I know criticism.  REAL criticism is when you point out flaws in a manner to actually have them fixed.  Calling someone a bad writer, a fat (explitive), and all the varied other insults I saw flung are not criticism.  Telling someone you think they should quit, hope they miscarry, hope they kill themselves, that they should just die; this is NOT criticism.  This is hate, bullying, and stupidity.

Do unto others, as you'd have them do unto you.  Treat others with respect and you will be respected.  And most importantly, don't be a jerk.

#1356
stabbykitteh

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Staying in media blackout for ME3, I just read about this on the Nexus. The posters prior to me (ICevol and DemonSaya) have pretty much covered everything I would have said regarding the personal attacks and the misogyny involved. It also seems to me indicative of this idea that we own the people who make our entertainment. Contributing to someone's paycheck - whether it be for writing, singing, acting or whatever - gives you no license to their personal lives. No right to criticize or threaten them personally. I'll not get into the "fat shaming" and idea of women as lesser beings, as I've had quite enough of that in American politics of late and it's been covered.

Shame on the idiots involved. DA2 had it's problems, but I enjoyed it. Just picked up another copy, in fact.

All support to Jennifer Hepler and when I can I'll contribute to Bullying Canada in her name.

Kudos to Bioware and Dr. Ray Muzyka for standing up for her.

Modifié par Flummox, 22 février 2012 - 07:21 .


#1357
gonzalez.melissa53

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This is very unfortunate! I'm sad and disappointed that anyone would attack one of Bioware's writer in such a childish and uncalled for way. I had hoped to log-in here and read news about some upcoming dlc... very disheartening.

#1358
Imported_beer

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Group1: People who think Jennifer Hepler's writing skills are suspect, or her assertion of not liking gaming is not conducive to her writing games, or about either affects Bioware games. But have not resorted to name calling and harassment.

Group 2: People who may or may not think the above but like flinging around bigoted, nasty remarks for months. You know...BULLYING.

Facts:
1. You support their stance of group 2, fine. But by defending their behavior, you may be implying  it is perfectly acceptable to express that criticism in such nasty, bigoted terms.
2. People who express criticism in a nasty bigoted way are not going to have their criticism heard. Maybe you can bully a child or someone without any support structure into doing what you want if you harass them long enough, but with most adults, you are not going to succeed. So if anything, IMO, people with legitimate criticism should be even more upset about such behavior because crazy people taint even legitimate causes with their displays of insane nonsense. I am sure you will find these examples in your political landscape. Just because they believe what you believe is not enough, if their behavior robs your criticisms of a lot of legitimacy.

That is (one of) my problem with those who say- but group 2 have a point. If they had a point, it has been so marginalized by their crazy rhetoric, that the only reason it still resonates with group 1, is because of an original philosophy that both groups may have shared. If you didn't stoop to the name calling, good for you. That is the way criticism should be expressed. If you are angry that everyone rallied to support Jennifer and Bioware, that was not because of criticism. That was because of the nastiness. And wouldn't have happened if group 2 hadn't gone all...psycho.

Modifié par Imported_beer, 22 février 2012 - 07:29 .


#1359
CuriousArtemis

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When I saw David Gaider's tweet, I read the article and was disappointed to hear that people were abusing her for I guess writing gay relationships and suggesting that for some story trumps action? Not totally sure. Anyway, I immediately found her on Twitter, followed her, and told her to please not delete her account, that I loved DA2 and the wonderful relationships. I haven't checked, but I hope she didn't delete her account.

A lot of famous people (especially women) get abuse on Twitter. I agree that we should support stamping out bullying and programs that try to do so, but folks like Jennifer should try not to let the vitriolic rhetoric bother them. I know it's tough, and it would be for me, too. But maybe to combat that hate, those of us who support her and what she's brought to the games should be more vocal about HOW MUCH we love what she's done.

EDIT:  I WONDER IF A BIOWARE EMPLOYEE COULD COLLECT ALL THE POSITIVE COMMENTS IN THIS THREAD AND SEND THEM TO JENNIFER??

^in caps so they will see =]

Modifié par motomotogirl, 22 février 2012 - 07:41 .


#1360
Hexoduen

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I would not show any respect to a group of gamers who launches a personal attack on Jennifer Hepler. If they don't agree with her view fine, but keep it civilized and make your arguments without sinking so low. The form of harassment going on is embarrassing for the gaming community to say the least.

Modifié par Hexoduen, 22 février 2012 - 07:52 .


#1361
mopotter

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Excellent.

The biggest problem with being anonymous, people can be stupid/rude and not get sent to their room without supper, or having to write 100 times on the chalkboard - I will not be obnoxious to others.

#1362
SirXblade

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DemonSaya wrote...

 OK, I'm posting this one thing and then I'll be on my way.

First off, I don't necessarily care for Hepler's writing, and yes, I think Dragon Age 2 could have been handled better.  But having witnessed some of the abuse (yes, abuse) that was hurled her way on Twitter, no one deserves that.  No one.  First off, being overweight has no ability to affect your writing.  It's something that people use to hurt other people.  It was name-calling and mud slinging and nothing more.  Many of the comments and supposed quotes were completely inaccurate.

Second, Hepler doesn't even work at the studio that's working on Mass Effect 3.  She has no effect on the decisions that are made at that studio.  She doesn't write for Mass Effect, she writes for Dragon Age, so if the Mass Effect studio decides to give Shepard gay romance options, that was their decision, not hers.  Their decision to add a story mode was not her decision either.  The fact is, they need to reach a wider demographic than the people that it's been reaching.  Without money, they cannot produce more games and the only way to get the money they need is to give more groups that little something that might encourage them to buy the game.  Besides, not all gamers are white, straight, and male.  And even if you are, not everyone you meet in life is, and let me just say, her writing of Anders hitting on male or female Hawke came across as a real life situation.  We don't always get hit on someone we want to have sex with.

Third, having played the ME3 demo already, and played through the story mode FIRST out of curiosity if nothing more, I found myself pleasantly surprised.  I'm not one of those gamers that plays through a game to get all the most difficult achievements.  I don't have all of the achievements for any of the games I've played.  Often, I find levels on Mass Effect that are harder than veteran extremely difficult for me.  Having a 'casual' mode where you can still play the story without needing to invest the whole of your brain into it was a pleasant surprise.  I'm a mother of two, have a son in elementary school, a husband in Afghanistan (yeah, my husband fights for this 'freedom of speech' you used to abuse a woman), and I don't have all the time in the world to invest into a video game because I work from home.  I would have ended up staying up too late playing this game trying to get through it the first time, just like I've done with nearly every other game I've played.

Fourth, there's a little thing that's been bothering me about this whole situation in general, and maybe I'm out of line for saying this.  I'm sure someone will disagree with m e and call me a femi****, a misandrist, a whatever.  The whole blame, the whole of the hatred, the whole of the epic fiasco bull (explitive) was aimed at one person out of the hundreds who worked on one series of game.  The whole failings of the sacred video game industry was put on the shoulders of ONE PERSON.  And that person happened to be female.  No blame, no hate, no stupidity was aimed at the male lead writer, nor any other employee.  The fact is this, Jennifer Hepler did her job.  A job she's been doing for years, not one that 'a bloke lost' as it was so eloquently put towards me on twitter when I stood up and spoke in her defense.  People saw her post about having a vagina and a game industry job and "OMG, SHE ISN'T RESPECTING US".  And yet, the excuses I got when I called out the misogyny of those twitter posts, pointed out the hatred towards her that wasn't critique, it was just hate was that she wasn't respecting them.  Why should she?  You weren't respecting her, either?  A person can only expect from other people what they, themselves give.  If you want respect, you'd better do something worthy of it.

Now, I'm going to put in a little side-note here, because it's frustrating from the position of a woman who stood aside other fans (not necessarily of Hepler.  Among those who were standing in support were fans of various TV shows, games, movies, books, etc) were subject to the SAME ABUSE.  A friend of mine who survived cancer was told that they hoped she relapsed and died.  Another friend of mine was called a word that is probably out of the terms of use on this forum so I wont say it.  I was called a (explitive) writer, a dirty Jew, and a sexist.  For standing up for a woman who was being abused, we were, in turn, abused.

I keep hearing the "it was just criticism" excuse, but it wasn't.  I know criticism.  REAL criticism is when you point out flaws in a manner to actually have them fixed.  Calling someone a bad writer, a fat (explitive), and all the varied other insults I saw flung are not criticism.  Telling someone you think they should quit, hope they miscarry, hope they kill themselves, that they should just die; this is NOT criticism.  This is hate, bullying, and stupidity.

Do unto others, as you'd have them do unto you.  Treat others with respect and you will be respected.  And most importantly, don't be a jerk.


I seriously wish there was a like button because I agree to this 100%

#1363
Hartford688

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Absolutely disgusting, shameful behaviour. There was no excuse.

#1364
stoicsentry2

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Dragon Age 2 was one of the worst written piles of drivel ever. Period. Of this, let there be no question. Mass Effect 3 will be the same, Helper or not. Therefore, she is not the problem. Her terrible writing is merely a symptom of the problem... EA/Bioware is the real problem... they are getting worse every single minute. Of course now they are planning to have day 1 DLC... no surprise there.

That said, I'm unaware of the levels of abuse that Ms. Helper encountered and certainly no one should be bullied just because they suck at writing.

#1365
AerosmithNirvana

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Morroian wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Bioware have been pretty bad at public relations lately. Everything they've made until DAII was loved by all, 


ORLY, games like Sonic and Jade Empire ring a bell.


Oddly enough, everyone I personally know thinks DAII has set the stage for awesomeness. Weird how some people dislikeing something doesn't dictate the rest who do.

#1366
AerosmithNirvana

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Well said, SirXblade. I think that sums up all that should be said. Thank you. :)

#1367
danitiwa

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What happened to Helper is absolutely awful, I hope she hasn't taken the whole thing too hard. It's easy to flame what doesn't match your own taste one hundred percent. It takes actual guts to go out and produce creative work. Kudos to her for doing so. I don't think she should close her twitter though. In doing so she's just giving into the childish ragefits that are going on.

Modifié par danitiwa, 22 février 2012 - 09:26 .


#1368
Cyphon69

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Bullying Canada got a donation from me too. We got your back Jen.

Modifié par Cyphon69, 22 février 2012 - 09:22 .


#1369
Silfren

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I'm just now hearing about this.

I'm sorry to read that Jennifer was subjected to such cruelty by idiots who think they're entitled to spew this kind of misogynist venom. I'm also sorry that people are using this thread as an opportunity to get on their soap box about why they dislike Hepler's work, even if they aren't lobbing personal attacks at her. It's hardly the proper place.

Under the circumstances I'm assuming that Hepler may well not be interested in reading any online commentary at the moment, lest she be subjected to more abuse, but I'd like to voice my support for her here. I'm so terrible sorry she was put through this.

Kudos to Bioware for coming out in support of their employee, and especially for responding in such a great way by making a donation to Bullying Canada. I will be making a $100 to them as well. No one should ever have to deal with this sort of contemptible behavior.

#1370
Silfren

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danitiwa wrote...

What happened to Helper is absolutely awful, I hope she hasn't taken the whole thing too hard. It's easy to flame what doesn't match your own taste one hundred percent. It takes actual guts to go out and produce creative work. Kudos to her for doing so. I don't think she should close her twitter though. In doing so she's just giving into the childish ragefits that are going on.


It isn't about giving in, but protecting yourself.  Hepler's sole responsibility is to herself and doing what she decides is best for her peace of mind.  Garbage such as what Hepler's just experienced isn't just about "childish ragefits."  Especially with regards to women, I've seen these kinds of attacks escalate into threat-making and worse--it's harrassment and, sometimes, stalking. 

Calling it "giving in" to close the account is a judgment call that nobody other than Hepler should be making.  So may I politely suggest that we all avoid criticizing how she chooses to respond?

#1371
Thomas Andresen

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Oh, the humanity!

Seriously, this sort of behaviour(the personal attacks, that is) seems more human to me than what is widely considered "humane". Mercy, kindness and politeness seems to be extreme luxuries every time I read about something like this. But then, usually, someone steps out in defense of the target, and kindness may once again be attributed humanity, if not mercy and politeness.

Granted, I'm no fan of the points she was actually quoted on, but they make sense once you put it in the proper context. I think one quote from that interview should most definetely be considered:

I really believe Bioware’s Jade Empire would be a fantastic first RPG experience for most women, but I doubt many even saw it who weren’t already fans. And because of this, Bioware is unlikely to produce any games that streamlined again, since their more hardcore audience didn’t like the lack of inventory, easy combat and other features which made it so newcomer-friendly.

I really believe JE was a fantastic game, and a unique experience. As BioWare games go, it might be considered sub-par, but in the larger context it's an absolute fantastic game. And it's the larger context that matter. If BioWare were churning out games at a steady rate of 3-4 times per year, then I might only be playing BioWare games, but in reality, BioWare is too small a brand to consider them alone. Also, another point, is that several BioWare officials have later stated that they really want to expand the franchise, so here's hoping.

Another thing I agree with is that the gaming community has two bases that are unwittingly destroying the community as a whole. On one side is the elitist old-school gamers with their "out with the new, in with the old", and on the other side is the no-story-all-action FPS-fans. The elitist old-schoolers want to keep video-gaming an exclusive club, and anyone with sense would know that, if the industry are to thrive, that's not the way to go about it. The FPSers are cultivating a video-game trend that supports the "mindless brutality"-mentality, where video-games will keep getting the blame every time a youth snaps. Regardless of what they them self thinks, and how precise my points are, the truth stands: those two bases are making it difficult for the rest of the community, as well as the developing industry.

#1372
Johanna

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Gotholhorakh wrote...


pants witch wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

pants witch wrote...
Silence is helpful to the abuser, not the abused.


No. Welcome to the internet.



Had I chosen to say, "silence is helpful to the troll, not the trolled," you would very possibly be onto something. Trolling is not synonymous with abuse, for the record.

But, hey, thanks anyway.


Well, the abusers in this context are at least in part trolls hailing from /?/ (cover your eyes, Boo!) and bullies, and as such there is no doubt whether I was onto something. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

If someone is trying to elicit an emotional response as a means of having power over you, silence towards them is not always helpful to them, indeed it is sometimes helpful to you. On the other hand, speaking to authorities or the public about the issue is good. Silence there would be bad and would be helpful to the abuser.

Not all silence is, therefore, equal in such a situation. Wise maxim does not apply to this context. Fix maxim or apply in different context.


I'm going to explain this simply:

If silence had worked, what wound up making the news would not have happened in the first place.

Yet it did.

:huh:

#1373
StealthReborn--

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Lame :(

#1374
jokketheman

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Hi only wanted to say it is wrong all the things gamers are doing to you in forums now. Not all of us are like that hope you don’t take it to hart. And tnx for all the good game play you helped make so far

#1375
Jae Onasi

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Jennifer, I'm sorry you're going through such an awful time. I hope you are safe!