Our Statement Supporting a Valued Employee
#1401
Posté 23 février 2012 - 03:46
I am a feminist progressive (which should be redundant, but sadly isn't) gamer, and knowing that your games are a safe-haven from the misogyny and homophobia prevalent in other parts of the gaming world will keep me spending my dollars on you products as much as possible.
I will also be making a donation to BullyingCanada thanks to your endorsement.
#1402
Posté 23 février 2012 - 03:57
#1403
Posté 23 février 2012 - 04:32
#1404
Posté 23 février 2012 - 04:40
Silfren wrote...
Finally, your comment that Hepler hates games? Is false, completely without basis, and just plain ridiculous.
Well she didn't exactly say that she loves playing them either. It would be more correct to say that his comment doesn't tell the full story, not that it is outright false.
#1405
Posté 23 février 2012 - 04:54
ScottishMartialArts wrote...
Silfren wrote...
Finally, your comment that Hepler hates games? Is false, completely without basis, and just plain ridiculous.
Well she didn't exactly say that she loves playing them either. It would be more correct to say that his comment doesn't tell the full story, not that it is outright false.
I think Hepler's own words make it clear that yes, it is a false statement.
Now let us get back to the primary point, which is that all that crap is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what Hepler does, how well she does it,or whether she loves what she does. She was abused, and that is inexcusable.
I am sick to death of all this "OMG I'm TOTALLY against what happened to her, but enough of that, now let's talk about how much I hate her writing and how she's destroyed Bioware games."
The fact that so many people are offhandedly decrying the attacks in the form of "What happened was terrible, but..." is really, really telling. They don't actually give a damn about what happened to Hepler, otherwise they wouldn't keep turning the focus away from what was done to her and back to what THEY want to discuss instead.
Modifié par Silfren, 23 février 2012 - 04:55 .
#1406
Posté 23 février 2012 - 05:12
Silfren wrote...
I think Hepler's own words make it clear that yes, it is a false statement.
...
They don't actually give a damn about what happened to Hepler, otherwise they wouldn't keep turning the focus away from what was done to her and back to what THEY want to discuss instead.
Eh, I disagree. The full context of what Hepler said was that she enjoys the stories in games -- the interactive fiction element -- but doesn't care much for gameplay -- the tactics, the hand eye coordination, learning rules and processes, etc. It's more nuanced than "I hate games" but it's still pretty clear from what she said that she's not a core gamer.
And I wouldn't say that I don't give a damn. I went through middle school just like everyone else, and have certainly been in Hepler's shoes. I just think there are more interesting issues raised by this mess than which fan can post the biggest sympathies. Since this is the official Hepler thread, it doesn't seem inappropriate to talk about the bigger issues here.
#1407
Posté 23 février 2012 - 05:20
#1408
Posté 23 février 2012 - 05:26
ScottishMartialArts wrote...
Silfren wrote...
I think Hepler's own words make it clear that yes, it is a false statement.
...
They don't actually give a damn about what happened to Hepler, otherwise they wouldn't keep turning the focus away from what was done to her and back to what THEY want to discuss instead.
Eh, I disagree. The full context of what Hepler said was that she enjoys the stories in games -- the interactive fiction element -- but doesn't care much for gameplay -- the tactics, the hand eye coordination, learning rules and processes, etc. It's more nuanced than "I hate games" but it's still pretty clear from what she said that she's not a core gamer.
And I wouldn't say that I don't give a damn. I went through middle school just like everyone else, and have certainly been in Hepler's shoes. I just think there are more interesting issues raised by this mess than which fan can post the biggest sympathies. Since this is the official Hepler thread, it doesn't seem inappropriate to talk about the bigger issues here.
Yeah, um, this ISN'T the "Jennifer Hepler" thread. It's the "Bioware supports our employee who was viciously attacked" thread.
More interesting issues? Bigger issues? Another way of saying you're more interested in talking about how much damage Hepler allegedly did to Bioware than discussing the concerted attack against her by misogynist bottomfeeders?
#1409
Posté 23 février 2012 - 05:39
And yes, I am more interested in discussing the quality of Bioware and Hepler's writing than how mean /v/ and reddit are. Your average 4channer has the emotional maturity of a 13 year old, and that was in full evidence with this attack on Ms. Hepler. What else is there to say on that topic?
Modifié par ScottishMartialArts, 23 février 2012 - 05:48 .
#1410
Posté 23 février 2012 - 05:54
ScottishMartialArts wrote...
...to what extent a game writer influences the design process, whether or not someone who doesn't like gameplay should be writing for game...
Without a doubt, game writers have influence on the game design.
#1411
Posté 23 février 2012 - 06:10
Actually:ScottishMartialArts wrote...
So we're supposed to ignore the context of what happened because it's not explicitly stated in the thread title? The moderator's have tolerated civil discussion in this thread on questions such as whether or not Bioware's writing is going downhill, to what extent a game writer influences the design process, whether or not someone who doesn't like gameplay should be writing for games, etc. Until the mods say otherwise, I don't see why these issues can't be civilly discussed in this thread.
And yes, I am more interested in discussing the quality of Bioware and Hepler's writing than how mean /v/ and reddit are. Your average 4channer has the emotional maturity of a 13 year old, and that was in full evidence with this attack on Ms. Hepler. What else is there to say on that topic?
In this very thread.Chris Priestly wrote...
It seems that too many people are upset that we are moderating this thread, in their opinion, overly harshly.
This thread is here to show our support for Jennifer Hepler as a valued employee of BioWare. It is not to discuss the quality of our games, or the moderation on these forums or to fight between posters. THAT is why posts have been deleted. As with all our forums and thread you are welcome to discuss this topic in a calm, sensible manner within the Site Rules. If posts are made that are deemed off topic by staff or moderators, we will continue to moderate the thread as we do with all threads on these forums.
So if you want to voice your support for Jennifer and/or BioWare, great. If, for some reason you have the opposing viewpoint that we should not support Jennifer, post your argument in a rational manner. If you want to disucss our moderation policies you can start a new thread in the Off Topic forum or send me a private message.
Now, back to the subject at hand.
Modifié par Thomas Andresen, 23 février 2012 - 06:11 .
#1412
Posté 23 février 2012 - 06:13
ScottishMartialArts wrote...
So we're supposed to ignore the context of what happened because it's not explicitly stated in the thread title? The moderator's have tolerated civil discussion in this thread on questions such as whether or not Bioware's writing is going downhill, to what extent a game writer influences the design process, whether or not someone who doesn't like gameplay should be writing for games, etc. Until the mods say otherwise, I don't see why these issues can't be civilly discussed in this thread.
And yes, I am more interested in discussing the quality of Bioware and Hepler's writing than how mean /v/ and reddit are. Your average 4channer has the emotional maturity of a 13 year old, and that was in full evidence with this attack on Ms. Hepler. What else is there to say on that topic?
What's the context? That Hepler said something six years ago that has been taken OUT of context and blown hugely out of proportion?
Yes, I know the moderators have tolerated various discussion. Nevertheless, I find it abhorrent that people are so callous as to express supposed support for Hepler thusly: "It's terrible that anyone would do that but what she said was just stupid and hey, there's a lot of valid criticism for the game."
A LOT of people have been phrasing their supposed support for Hepler in exactly that format, saying something vague about how the attack against her was wrong, but then burying that sentiment beneath a rant about how much they think Hepler has damaged Bioware in general and Dragon Age in particular.
There's a common theme wherein people try to mask the inherent bigotry of something they're about to say by phrasing it thusly. "I'm not racist/sexist/homophobic/insert-bigotry-here, but...."
People who keep going "What happened to Jennifer Hepler was awful, but..." are engaging in the exact same process.
Hepler was subjected to all-out threats against her person, among other things, and people are using the thread Bioware created to show support for her in order to rant about what terrible, horrific things Hepler has done as a Bioware writer.
You'll excuse me if I'm disgusted.
#1413
Posté 23 février 2012 - 06:16
Thomas Andresen wrote...
Actually:In this very thread.Chris Priestly wrote...
It seems that too many people are upset that we are moderating this thread, in their opinion, overly harshly.
This
thread is here to show our support for Jennifer Hepler as a valued
employee of BioWare. It is not to discuss the quality of our games, or
the moderation on these forums or to fight between posters. THAT is why
posts have been deleted. As with all our forums and thread you are
welcome to discuss this topic in a calm, sensible manner within the Site
Rules. If posts are made that are deemed off topic by staff or
moderators, we will continue to moderate the thread as we do with all
threads on these forums.
So if you want to voice your support for
Jennifer and/or BioWare, great. If, for some reason you have the
opposing viewpoint that we should not support Jennifer, post your
argument in a rational manner. If you want to disucss our moderation
policies you can start a new thread in the Off Topic forum or send me a
private message.
Now, back to the subject at hand.
[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]
All I can say is that the mods have yet to deem my posts off topic. They've been tolerating side discussion -- as long as it's civil -- in practice, even if the Priestly quote says something different.
Modifié par ScottishMartialArts, 23 février 2012 - 06:18 .
#1414
Posté 23 février 2012 - 06:16
#1415
Posté 23 février 2012 - 06:29
Silfren wrote...
What's the context?
That a lot of long time Bioware fans are unhappy with the direction of the company and that boiled over into an internet lynch mob against one of its employees? I'm not trying to say Hepler deserved what happened -- not in the least -- but that I think there's more at play than just sexism. As others have pointed out, there are a lot of prominent female writers in the video game industry and yet they haven't come in for this kind of treatment. Meanwhile, the reddit and /v/ crew are talking about harassing another Bioware employee, namely David Gaider. If that happens, the common factor won't be gender, but will be Bioware. I think this has a lot more to do with the direction the company has taken in the past year or two than it does with anything Jennifer Hepler ever said or did.
There's a common theme
wherein people try to mask the inherent bigotry of something they're
about to say by phrasing it thusly. "I'm not
racist/sexist/homophobic/insert-bigotry-here, but...."
People who keep going "What happened to Jennifer Hepler was awful, but..." are engaging in the exact same process.
The only way for that to be analogous is for all criticism of Bioware to be rooted in bigotry. Some of it probably is rooted in bigotry -- the "no gay comeons in my games" crowd comes to mind -- but to suggest that all of it is is a big stretch.
#1416
Posté 23 février 2012 - 06:45
She is probably one of the most powerful writers I've seen in a long time, and every innovative, creative attempt she makes is something we should respect, because she puts her time and effort into these things.
Ever played the recent Final Fantasy XIII games? Plot-Holes everywhere, incoherent structure and confusion. Jennifer never deserved any of this, and if you want to take something up with Bioware, don't target the innocent who only try to benefit your community with their ingenuity. There's a reason why they're there and you're not! Experience.
#1417
Posté 23 février 2012 - 06:45
The common factor is the people who are instigating and participating in organized online harassment of public figures whose only crime is to be a very visible employee of a company these troublemakers have decided to form a negative opinion of.ScottishMartialArts wrote...
Meanwhile, the reddit and /v/ crew are talking about harassing another Bioware employee, namely David Gaider. If that happens, the common factor won't be gender, but will be Bioware.
Yes, because after you harass a company's employees online, they are more likely to create products that appeal to you. And these troublemakers can't be satisfied with, oh, I don't know, not purchasing a game from a company they don't like. No, they actually want the game but are disappointed with how the internet views the company and its products, so instead of doing without, they lash out in the hopes of getting attention. In my opinion, not a particularly good way of opening up a dialogue or persuading us to do anything for you.I think this has a lot more to do with the direction the company has taken in the past year or two than it does with anything Jennifer Hepler ever said or did.
Or, and I think this is more likely, people just like being able to cause trouble anonymously, covered by a large similiarly-minded group, with very little chance of any lasting consequences.
#1418
Posté 23 février 2012 - 06:47
ScottishMartialArts wrote...
Silfren wrote...
What's the context?
That a lot of long time Bioware fans are unhappy with the direction of the company and that boiled over into an internet lynch mob against one of its employees? I'm not trying to say Hepler deserved what happened -- not in the least -- but that I think there's more at play than just sexism. As others have pointed out, there are a lot of prominent female writers in the video game industry and yet they haven't come in for this kind of treatment. Meanwhile, the reddit and /v/ crew are talking about harassing another Bioware employee, namely David Gaider. If that happens, the common factor won't be gender, but will be Bioware. I think this has a lot more to do with the direction the company has taken in the past year or two than it does with anything Jennifer Hepler ever said or did.
That not every prominent female writer has been subjected to what Hepler has does NOT rule out or minimize the sexism of this situation. Sexist slurs against Hepler have been extremely prominent, not to mention the nature of the threats made against her. And if Gaider is attacked, I'd be willing to bet hard cash that he would NOT receive rape threats or be called a **** or ugly or fat. Even when men are attacked alongside women, the nature of the attacks are inherently different. Women are subjected to comments about their weight, physical attractiveness, and sexuality, over matters that have NOTHING to do with any of those things, far more often than men ever are.
ScottishMartialArts wrote...
Silfren wrote...
There's a common theme wherein people try to mask the inherent bigotry of something they're about to say by phrasing it thusly. "I'm not racist/sexist/homophobic/insert-bigotry-here, but...."
People who keep going "What happened to Jennifer Hepler was awful, but..." are engaging in the exact same process.
The only way for that to be analogous is for all criticism of Bioware to be rooted in bigotry. Some of it probably is rooted in bigotry -- the "no gay comeons in my games" crowd comes to mind -- but to suggest that all of it is is a big stretch.
Uh, no. It is analagous on its own. I'm not talking about general criticism of Bioware, I'm talking specifically about the way people are tossing out brief little one-liners about how what was done to Hepler was wrong, and then going on and on and on about how they totally agree with WHY Hepler's attackers were upset. It is completely analagous to the "I'm not a bigot, but..." crowd, because these people know that it would be in poor taste to come raging into this thread to complain about Hepler without saying SOMETHING about the attacks against her, but gosh darn it, that's NOT what they want to talk about.
Modifié par Silfren, 23 février 2012 - 06:52 .
#1419
Posté 23 février 2012 - 07:04
Stanley Woo wrote...
The common factor is the people who are instigating and participating in organized online harassment of public figures whose only crime is to be a very visible employee of a company these troublemakers have decided to form a negative opinion of.ScottishMartialArts wrote...
Meanwhile, the reddit and /v/ crew are talking about harassing another Bioware employee, namely David Gaider. If that happens, the common factor won't be gender, but will be Bioware.Yes, because after you harass a company's employees online, they are more likely to create products that appeal to you. And these troublemakers can't be satisfied with, oh, I don't know, not purchasing a game from a company they don't like. No, they actually want the game but are disappointed with how the internet views the company and its products, so instead of doing without, they lash out in the hopes of getting attention. In my opinion, not a particularly good way of opening up a dialogue or persuading us to do anything for you.I think this has a lot more to do with the direction the company has taken in the past year or two than it does with anything Jennifer Hepler ever said or did.
Or, and I think this is more likely, people just like being able to cause trouble anonymously, covered by a large similiarly-minded group, with very little chance of any lasting consequences.
I think also that in the internet age where artists of various media usually have accounts with Myspace and Facebook and Twitter and of course a personal website with a blog, there's a growing tendency among a certain contingent of fans to believe they are actually entitled to dictate the nature of an artist's work. George R.R. Martin has fans who seem to think that because they purchase his books, they have a legal right to demand that he write on their schedule rather than his own. I recall an old rumour that some of J.K. Rowling's fans actually hoped she would miscarry when it came out that her pregnancy was delaying the publication of one of the Harry Potter titles. In another case that I was actually witness to, a group of fans who disliked the characters Rowling chose to pair up romantically went so far as to start an online petition in an attempt to compel Rowling to re-write the books in order to feature their preferred couples. Stephenie Meyer also incurred the wrath of fangirls who didn't like the direction the Twilight romances went.
Disliking the creative direction someone takes their work is acceptable, of course. As is stating your opinion as such. But to actually think you've the right to emotionally abuse and even outright threaten someone? Whether just for the hell of it or because you actually think you've the right to bully them into making you happy? Not so much.
#1420
Posté 23 février 2012 - 07:07
RampantAndroid wrote...
Never knew who she was until now.
Frankly, given the response to the attacks she made on twitter, she's getting exactly what I could have predicted.
Oh, and I think I know who I can lay a lot of the blame of DA2 on now, too. Sad people are sending death threats though. And sad a game company employs someone who doesn't like games and calls other writers old men with beards. Is this related to why another major writer left bioware?
This is ridiculous. What she said was so mild as to be barely worthy of a reaction, unless the people she said it to are so sensitive to what they dish out that it causes them physical pain (in which case they should gtfo of the internets, because it's clearly too tough for their delicate sensibilities).
She's in no way responsible for how she was treated. People who think her post deserves a savage retaliation are dealing with serious maturity and entitlement issues, as they seem to believe it's okay to step up to extreme levels of harassment without any consequences whatsoever. That such a mild rebuke is treated as an unforgivable sin just proves how thin-skinned and oversensitive these people are, no matter how tough an image they try to project with their oh-so-edgy misogynist rants that are presented as but not even slightly disguised as "legitimate criticism."
#1421
Posté 23 février 2012 - 07:18
ScottishMartialArts wrote...
Eh, I disagree. The full context of what Hepler said was that she enjoys the stories in games -- the interactive fiction element -- but doesn't care much for gameplay -- the tactics, the hand eye coordination, learning rules and processes, etc. It's more nuanced than "I hate games" but it's still pretty clear from what she said that she's not a core gamer.
Some people have real hand-eye coordination issues. I do, and it sounds like she does. Combat works much better for me if I have auto aiming (anything from target selection used in MMOs to simply locking the cursor onto the nearest mob) or in-combat pausing. If I boost the difficulty above "normal" in most games, I'm going to be dealing with massive frustration. There are times I would just rather bypass the combat to get to the story because the combat serves as nothing more than a roadblock between me and the story. I don't hate combat and I don't want it removed from games, but I would like to have more options for dealing with it.
I've also been gaming for three decades.
I don't think you can say someone can't be a core gamer because they have issues with some elements of gaming. I don't think everyone has to have this total absolute comment to every facet of every game to qualify as a "real" gamer. That's just a "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
And, bluntly, whether or not she is a real core gamer is completely irrelevant here. It doesn't justify anything that happened. It doesn't make the attacks on her character and her career, the libelous photoshops done to claim she said things she never said, or the death and rape threats sent to her via twitter or phone. None of your complaint about whether she's a real gamer or not which is apparently only relevant in her case because none of you are beating down anyone else's doors to demand their gaming credentials has any bearing on this. All it makes you is someone grasping for excuses to justify abusive behavior.
And I wouldn't say that I don't give a damn. I went through middle school just like everyone else, and have certainly been in Hepler's shoes. I just think there are more interesting issues raised by this mess than which fan can post the biggest sympathies. Since this is the official Hepler thread, it doesn't seem inappropriate to talk about the bigger issues here.
There aren't any bigger issues than the fact that a significant number of fans believe it is their birthright to rip into a woman just because they can twist her words into something that justifies their hatred.
And I doubt you have specifically been in Hepler's shoes. Oh, you might have been bullied, but I suspect you haven't had people try to track you down and attack you and threaten you and try to intimidate you out of the industry you work in because their half-assed insane interpretations of what you wrote or what they think you wrote gives them an excuse.
I, on the other hand, have been in a very similar situation to that (although it was one of my co-authors who got the death threats, and not me personally).
#1422
Posté 23 février 2012 - 07:21
BellaStrega wrote...
RampantAndroid wrote...
Never knew who she was until now.
Frankly, given the response to the attacks she made on twitter, she's getting exactly what I could have predicted.
Oh, and I think I know who I can lay a lot of the blame of DA2 on now, too. Sad people are sending death threats though. And sad a game company employs someone who doesn't like games and calls other writers old men with beards. Is this related to why another major writer left bioware?
This is ridiculous. What she said was so mild as to be barely worthy of a reaction, unless the people she said it to are so sensitive to what they dish out that it causes them physical pain (in which case they should gtfo of the internets, because it's clearly too tough for their delicate sensibilities).
She's in no way responsible for how she was treated. People who think her post deserves a savage retaliation are dealing with serious maturity and entitlement issues, as they seem to believe it's okay to step up to extreme levels of harassment without any consequences whatsoever. That such a mild rebuke is treated as an unforgivable sin just proves how thin-skinned and oversensitive these people are, no matter how tough an image they try to project with their oh-so-edgy misogynist rants that are presented as but not even slightly disguised as "legitimate criticism."
What? You're saying that lashing out against many months' worth of harrassment, stalking, and threats is totally not the same thing as...harrassment, stalking, and threats? Whoa.
*sigh* What's troubling about that is that apparently so many people do think that Hepler's response to her abuse is morally equivalent to the abuse itself.
#1423
Posté 23 février 2012 - 07:23
Stanley Woo wrote...
The common factor is the people who are instigating and participating in organized online harassment of public figures whose only crime is to be a very visible employee of a company these troublemakers have decided to form a negative opinion of.
The people doing it are certainly a common factor. But so is the company that those who are being targetted work for.
And these troublemakers can't be satisfied with, oh, I
don't know, not purchasing a game from a company they don't like.
If it makes you feel any better, I haven't bought a Bioware game since KotOR 1. I did however get Mass Effect and Dragon Age as gifts from a friend who worked at EA Redwood Shores when they still did testing there.
I still have my collector's edition of Baldur's Gate II sitting proudly on my bookshelf though.
Or, and I think this is more likely, people
just like being able to cause trouble anonymously, covered by a large
similiarly-minded group, with very little chance of any lasting
consequences.
I'm sure that played a huge factor. But it still doesn't explain why Bioware employees, and not employees of other companies, are being targetted.
#1424
Posté 23 février 2012 - 07:34
ScottishMartialArts wrote...
I'm sure that played a huge factor. But it still doesn't explain why Bioware employees, and not employees of other companies, are being targetted.
Actually, I've seen and been targeted by similar (if much lower profile) scenarios, so yes, others do get targeted.
Why she was targeted here? I think the monotonous repetition of how she dared to actually have an opinion and utter it despite its unforgiveable dissidence from what is apparently perceived as mandatory tradition explains precisely why she was targeted: A pack of overly entitled misogynist twits decided that she didn't know her proper place and decided to try to drive her out of her career.
It doesn't matter that she said it six years ago. It doesn't matter that what she said has to be tortured until it screams before it means what her so-called "critics" claims it means. It doesn't matter that she didn't say many of the things that were attributed to her. What mattered is that she was a woman who could be used as a scapegoat for everything about Bioware that pissed these so-called "fans" off about the past few releases, and most especially that they could shout her down for daring to have an opinion about what they wrongly perceive to be strictly their dudebro hobby.
#1425
Posté 23 février 2012 - 07:34
ScottishMartialArts wrote...
Stanley Woo wrote...
The common factor is the people who are instigating and participating in organized online harassment of public figures whose only crime is to be a very visible employee of a company these troublemakers have decided to form a negative opinion of.
The people doing it are certainly a common factor. But so is the company that those who are being targetted work for.And these troublemakers can't be satisfied with, oh, I
don't know, not purchasing a game from a company they don't like.
If it makes you feel any better, I haven't bought a Bioware game since KotOR 1. I did however get Mass Effect and Dragon Age as gifts from a friend who worked at EA Redwood Shores when they still did testing there.
I still have my collector's edition of Baldur's Gate II sitting proudly on my bookshelf though.Or, and I think this is more likely, people
just like being able to cause trouble anonymously, covered by a large
similiarly-minded group, with very little chance of any lasting
consequences.
I'm sure that played a huge factor. But it still doesn't explain why Bioware employees, and not employees of other companies, are being targetted.
See, here's your problem. You're trying to say that Bioware is responsible for the attacks. You're claiming that this would not have happened had Bioware not gone in a direction that displeased its fans. (And yes, this is precisely what you're saying).
This happened because a number of individuals decided to launch an attack on a woman. Stop with the victim-blaming, please. This didn't happen because Bioware went in a creative direction that (nobody) liked. It didn't happen because Hepler isn't a "real" gamer. It didn't happen because Hepler said things that allegedly mark her as stupid and inept and unqualified to work for Bioware. It happened because asswipes decided to attack an innocent person to amuse themselves.
And would you mind ceasing this tendency to write about displeased customers of Bioware as if they are the only, or the only important, customers involved? Quite a lot of people enjoyed DA2 just fine, and some of us love it more and more with each new playthrough. We don't all hate the direction Bioware has gone.





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