1876 réponses à ce sujet

[ScottishMartialArts]

BellaStrega wrote...

I don't think you can say someone
can't be a core gamer because they have issues with some elements of
gaming. I don't think everyone has to have this total absolute comment
to every facet of every game to qualify as a "real" gamer. That's just a
"no true Scotsman" fallacy.

Fair enough.
However, reading the full interview, I couldn't help but feel Hepler
likes games for very different reasons than I do. I certainly don't ever
see her getting into a DCS title, for example. But you're right, I'm not the arbitrator of who constitutes a gamer and who doesn't.

And, bluntly, whether or not she is a real core gamer is completely irrelevant here.
It doesn't justify anything that happened.

I've never argued that and have on numerous occasions explicitly stated the opposite. Don't get ahead of yourself.

And I doubt you have specifically been in
Hepler's shoes. Oh, you might have been bullied, but I suspect you
haven't had people try to track you down and attack you and threaten you
and try to intimidate you out of the industry you work in because their
half-assed insane interpretations of what you wrote or what they think
you wrote gives them an excuse.

I wasn't looking to play "Whose the biggest victim?" but if you insist... I was
harrassed and bullied by classmates, both online and off, to the point
that I had to change schools, twice, because I was "queer". These days I
experience the adult equivalent of bullying -- employment
discrimination -- because I'm transgendered and don't fully pass in my
preferred gender role. Of course, good old fashioned bullying still
happens from time to time too, but that seems pretty minor in comparison
to not being able to start a real career.

So does that count? Or do we need to keep playing this game?

[BellaStrega]

Silfren wrote...

What?  You're saying that lashing out against many months' worth of harrassment, stalking, and threats is totally not the same thing as...harrassment, stalking, and threats?  Whoa. 

*sigh* What's troubling about that is that apparently so many people do think that Hepler's response to her abuse is morally equivalent to the abuse itself.

I think the perception is that she doesn't know her proper place.

[In Exile]

It's absolutely disgusting what people have said about you, Ms. Hepler. Ignore all the vitriol. Focus on your work. You made the most inocuous possible comment in the context of what would help you develop as a writer. That people need to actively insult you to this extent demeans them.

[Silfren]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

BellaStraga wrote...
And, bluntly, whether or not she is a real core gamer is completely irrelevant here.
It doesn't justify anything that happened.

I've never argued that and have on numerous occasions explicitly stated the opposite. Don't get ahead of yourself.

What you have done is go on at length about what Bioware has done as a company to trigger the feelings that led to this attack.  The fact that you think this is relevant to the issue, and apparently consider it to be a more important issue, is why people are accusing you of justifying what was done to Hepler.

Any time you question what the victim--or, as in this case, the victim's employer--did to create the environment that spawned the attacks, you are engaging in victim-blaming.  Talking at ALL about the actions of Bioware or Hepler's statements does strongly suggest that you think they are at least in part culpable for what happened.  Whether you consciously intend that to be the case or not.  

[Thomas Andresen]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

The common factor is the people who are instigating and participating in organized online harassment of public figures whose only crime is to be a very visible employee of a company these troublemakers have decided to form a negative opinion of.

The people doing it are certainly a common factor. But so is the company that those who are being targetted work for.

And these troublemakers can't be satisfied with, oh, I 
don't know, not purchasing a game from a company they don't like.

If it makes you feel any better, I haven't bought a Bioware game since KotOR 1. I did however get Mass Effect and Dragon Age as gifts from a friend who worked at EA Redwood Shores when they still did testing there.

I still have my collector's edition of Baldur's Gate II sitting proudly on my bookshelf though.

Or, and I think this is more likely, people
just like being able to cause trouble anonymously, covered by a large
similiarly-minded group, with very little chance of any lasting
consequences.

I'm sure that played a huge factor. But it still doesn't explain why Bioware employees, and not employees of other companies, are being targetted.

Oh, this one is easy. BioWare is being targeted because a small group previously of their fan-base has an vastly inflated sense of entitlement. Bioware has always been the best in the business in producing story-driven video games, and though some people might argue that the quality of their games have, true or not, diminished, they still are the best at what they do. The vast majority of RPGs available are sandbox games, and the few story-driven video games not done by BioWare either lack a good story, or flows awkwardly, or in most cases, both.

Edit: I also just noticed this: You joined yesterday? You joined only to partake in this thread? What are you, a troll or an ****? I'm having a hard time believing you joining the forum the same day this thread was created is only a coincident.

Modifié par Thomas Andresen, 23 février 2012 - 07:52 .

[ScottishMartialArts]

BellaStrega wrote...

Actually, I've seen and been targeted by similar (if much lower profile) scenarios, so yes, others do get targeted.

I have too -- Harvey Smith comes to mind -- but with few exceptions the developers that have been targetted for abuse by irate fans have been men.

I guess what I'm getting at is that, yes, sexist comments were made towards Ms. Hepler, but I don't think sexism explains why developers get targetted like this. Immaturity and anonymity are probably the biggest components, but also there's a kernal of legitimate anger or disappointment. Harvey Smith got tarred and feathered because Deus Ex: Invisible War was a pretty damn disappointing sequel by every measure. Likewise, had Bioware really hit it out of the park with DA2, I doubt this would've happened.

Call that victim blaming if you must, but I think it's the truth.

Modifié par ScottishMartialArts, 23 février 2012 - 07:49 .

[BellaStrega]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

Fair enough.
However, reading the full interview, I couldn't help but feel Hepler
likes games for very different reasons than I do. I certainly don't ever
see her getting into a DCS title, for example. But you're right, I'm not the arbitrator of who constitutes a gamer and who doesn't.

I don't know what a DCS title is, and google didn't help.

There are a lot of games I don't care about, and a lot of games I enjoy playing but will never be able to play well. I actually agree with Hepler that it would be nice to be able to streamline combat. I found the final run in KOTOR exhausting, as it was a matter of fight, take two steps, fight, take two more steps, fight. I was more interested in what would happen when I got to Bastila and then Malak, but what I got was an extended blockade I had to beat down over and over again before I could get to the story. It would have been nice if I'd had an option to reduce the number of fights.

And I can't describe how relieved I was in KOTOR II that I could just bypass the space combat.

I've never argued that and have on numerous occasions explicitly stated the opposite. Don't get ahead of yourself.

Then why does her status as a real true gamer keep coming up? 

I wasn't looking to play "Whose the biggest victim?" but if you insist... I was
harrassed and bullied by classmates, both online and off, to the point
that I had to change schools, twice, because I was "queer". These days I
experience the adult equivalent of bullying -- employment
discrimination -- because I'm transgendered and don't fully pass in my
preferred gender role. Of course, good old fashioned bullying still
happens from time to time too, but that seems pretty minor in comparison
to not being able to start a real career.

So does that count? Or do we need to keep playing this game?

I wasn't trying to play "who was the biggest victim." I'm not trying to rank anyone's suffering here, and I honestly never would. I've been bullied rather extensively in school and at work for being queer, for being gender non-conforming, and for being autistic. I also don't have a career (and the period I was freelancing was my most productive, but didn't last long) and am in fact on disability. My point wasn't about who had been bullied the most, but this particular kind of situation and what kind of reaction is appropriate for it. I probably misunderstood what you were getting at by saying you had been bullied, in which case I apologize. I didn't think of it as a matter of degree but a matter of kind.

[ScottishMartialArts]

BellaStrega wrote...

I don't know what a DCS title is, and google didn't help.

Digital Combat Simulator, it's the second google hit. Basically they're a series of high fidelity flight simulators. So far the series has covered the KA-50 Black Shark, a russian attack helicopter, and the A-10C Warthog. The North American P-51D Mustang is coming later this year,  and the Boeing F/A-18 sometime next year.  Try googling the A-10C startup sequence and you'll see that this sort of game isn't everyones cup of tea. I love them though, and fly coop mission pretty much every night with friends.

[BellaStrega]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

I have too -- Harvey Smith comes to mind -- but with few exceptions the developers that have been targetted for abuse by irate fans have been men.

And those developers aren't targeted in the same ways that Hepler was. And, I should note that typically it is someone who has a leadership position who is targeted. But in this case, rather than targeting anyone in a leadership position, they went out of their way to track down someone who said something that might be objectionable if you squint and hold it up to a mirror and focused entirely on her. The insults were almost exclusively misogynist in nature and people focused a lot on the fact that Hepler is a woman.

I guess what I'm getting at is that, yes, sexist comments were made towards Ms. Hepler, but I don't think sexism explains why developers get targetted like this. Immaturity and anonymity are probably the biggest components, but also there's a kernal of legitimate anger or disappointment. Harvey Smith got tarred and feathered because Deus Ex: Invisible War was a pretty damn disappointing sequel by every measure. Likewise, had Bioware really hit it out of the park with DA2, I doubt this would've happened.

Sexism explains why and how Ms. Hepler was targeted like this. Obviously other factors come up, but I don't see how it's possible to separate the sexism from the abuse and attacks directed at her.

Call that victim blaming if you must, but I think it's the truth.

Sorry, producing a game that people found disappointing is not the reason this happened. The reason this happened is that some people decided to find someone to blame for the situation and lashed out with extreme prejudice. To me, the idea of getting this angry and this abusive about a game strikes me as completely unjustifiable. There is nothing that Bioware did to bring this upon itself or any of its employees. The same goes for any other situation like this that comes up. It's the fans who are apparently unable to keep themselves from flipping out and resorting to vile behavior.

[BellaStrega]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

I don't know what a DCS title is, and google didn't help.

Digital Combat Simulator, it's the second google hit. Basically they're a series of high fidelity flight simulators. So far the series has covered the KA-50 Black Shark, a russian attack helicopter, and the A-10C Warthog. The North American P-51D Mustang is coming later this year,  and the Boeing F/A-18 sometime next year.  Try googling the A-10C startup sequence and you'll see that this sort of game isn't everyones cup of tea. I love them though, and fly coop mission pretty much every night with friends.

Different people get different results based on their usage patterns, I think. My second hit is Washington State Division of Child Support. I spend a lot of time looking up information on state agencies, or at least did over the past year.

When I tried DCS game I got results for "BCS game" and asked if I really wanted DCS. When I clicked that, I got some business links.

Now I get digital combat simulator as the first link with dcs game.

The P-51D Mustang may very well be my cup of tea. I love WW2 aviation.

[ScottishMartialArts]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Edit: I also just noticed this: You joined yesterday? You joined only to partake in this thread? What are you, a troll or an ****? I'm having a hard time believing you joining the forum the same day this thread was created is only a coincident.

I've probably been a member of the Black Isle/Bioware RPG community longer than you have. I just never bothered to register a new account when they switched from the old forums to the BSN. In the old forums, I registered around the time NWN1 came out. Before then, I had posted on the old Black Isle boards.

Modifié par ScottishMartialArts, 23 février 2012 - 08:18 .

[Thomas Andresen]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

I guess what I'm getting at is that, yes, sexist comments were made towards Ms. Hepler, but I don't think sexism explains why developers get targetted like this. Immaturity and anonymity are probably the biggest components, but also there's a kernal of legitimate anger or disappointment. Harvey Smith got tarred and feathered because Deus Ex: Invisible War was a pretty damn disappointing sequel by every measure. Likewise, had Bioware really hit it out of the park with DA2, I doubt this would've happened.

Whether or not this is what you actually mean, what you are saying is that being party of producing a "disappointing product" makes you a target for completely justified harassment, abuse, stalking, or whatever the internet decides the person deserves. I'm sorry, but I'm fairly certain anything like this is explicitly illegal in any UN member country. And doing it over the internet does not make you exempt.

[BellaStrega]

Silfren wrote...

What you have done is go on at length about what Bioware has done as a company to trigger the feelings that led to this attack.  The fact that you think this is relevant to the issue, and apparently consider it to be a more important issue, is why people are accusing you of justifying what was done to Hepler.

Any time you question what the victim--or, as in this case, the victim's employer--did to create the environment that spawned the attacks, you are engaging in victim-blaming.  Talking at ALL about the actions of Bioware or Hepler's statements does strongly suggest that you think they are at least in part culpable for what happened.  Whether you consciously intend that to be the case or not.  

^^^

I agree with this. 

[werghu]

:ph34r:Petty insults removed:ph34r:

Modifié par casamar, 23 février 2012 - 08:40 .

[ScottishMartialArts]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Whether or not this is what you actually mean, what you are saying is that being party of producing a "disappointing product" makes you a target for completely justified harassment, abuse, stalking, or whatever the internet decides the person deserves. I'm sorry, but I'm fairly certain anything like this is explicitly illegal in any UN member country. And doing it over the internet does not make you exempt.

It's a pretty big leap to go from "You know, I can see how people would be disappointed by this game" to "GET THE ROPE! IT'S TIME FOR A LYNCHING." I haven't made that jump although you seem to want to argue that I have.

[Nevara]

I understand what it's like to be on the receiving end of some pretty venomous words when it comes to writing.

People told me I shouldn't write because they thought I was obscene and was counterproductive to mainstream thought processes.  Well you know what, I have no problem pushing the envelope or thinking outside the box. And it took me a long time to come to terms with such hateful speech spewed across the net from complete strangers that knew nothing about me.  I stopped writing because if people were going to be that self-righteous and pitiless to something that doesn't really even concern them, then why would I want to anymore.

People think they have the right to dictate the course of a narrative no matter the media it is presented on.  

They hem and haw just to get their point across calling writers names like c*** and s*** and hope they can die because it provoked some unwanted emotion. No one hurt you with their words or ideas, you drew your own conclusions and decided to attack them  for it.  Sorry, that's not the way life works.

What Ms/Mrs Hepler has endured was downright cruel.  No one should have to endure that for any amount of time.  She offered her opinion on something from six years ago and is then crucified because someone got their panties in a bunch because something they wanted didn't go the way they planned?  It seems more of a problem on the attacker than victim.  

Jennifer, you have my support and hope you continue to grow as a writer.  I hope things get better for you and hope you are doing well in this trying time.

It's also things like this from the gamespot comments on the article:

Look, men are tired of women trying to take over everything that men enjoy and ruin it. If they want their own "story only" game than let them make it and leave what the men enjoy alone. Why do they insist on trying to ruin what men want instead of just doing their own thing?

That is a mysogynistic statement if I ever saw one.  I personally didn't know that games were specifically for men and the fact that a woman had the audacity to speak her mind... is there some holy book of gaming that I missed?

These people, men and women, writers and artists come together as a group to share something with you.  They don't have to, and it's certainly their perogative not to.  But they do and I am thankful for it.  Everything from the devs coming to discuss things whether heated debates or just good old fun is something I see few and far between with other developers.  They don't speak to people to incite riots, they want passion and care about a product they love as much as we do; but when it's painted in scathing condescending remarks even the most well thought out criticism gets lost in the white noise of teeth gnashing and back biting.

I respect what they do and Stan, Chris and John do a helluva job with crowd control when things get bad.

And if this statement makes me a so-called "biodrone" or part of the "BioWare Defense Force," then so be it.  I know where my loyalties lie: they are with myself, my opinions, and the things I enjoy (which are also my opinions).

Well, that's my two cents on it anyways.  Now it's time to return to anonymity.

[werghu]

Did you learn to take valid criticism? Or did you just learn to block out the "haters"?

[Remmak]

Nevara wrote...
Jennifer, you have my support and hope you continue to grow as a writer.  I hope things get better for you and hope you are doing well in this trying time.

Well, based on some commentary she left in a place where ladies of the industry congregate (I just broke Rule #1), she's doing very well and not taking much of this to heart. Which is about as I would expect from a woman who has been at her job for as long as she has. Besides, she's a mom - that will raise any woman's threshold to endure.

[Nevara]

werghu wrote...

Did you learn to take valid criticism? Or did you just learn to block out the "haters"?

I learned to take the criticism but there are lines for valid and spiteful that some people overlook.  It's one thing to say why its bad (while giving valid reasons and examples of where my weakness are) and entirely different to say I suck because they just didn't like it.  I think in actuallity I learned to filter out the spitefulness because people will do that just to do that, and what was actually constructive.

But telling a person who put in thought into something that they should change their whole story because it doesn't suit the reader could be tantamount to fanservice.  And I don't do fanservice.

Validity of criticism can work both ways, I guess.  What may work for one scenario might not for another.  Such is life. Writing is always something that's improved with help from the outside and within.  There is nothing perfect and it won't always please everyone, but I learn.  I think that is what I took away from it the most.

[Nevara]

Remmak wrote...

Nevara wrote...
Jennifer, you have my support and hope you continue to grow as a writer.  I hope things get better for you and hope you are doing well in this trying time.

Well, based on some commentary she left in a place where ladies of the industry congregate (I just broke Rule #1), she's doing very well and not taking much of this to heart. Which is about as I would expect from a woman who has been at her job for as long as she has. Besides, she's a mom - that will raise any woman's threshold to endure.

Well I'm glad to hear that.  

And I know what its like to be a mom and have what feels like insurmountable demands from every which way.  So I can indeed commiserate.

[Thomas Andresen]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

"You know, I can see how people would be disappointed by this game"

That might have been what you meant, but in the context you provided, that's not what I read. Even now, I can't see how what you wrote could mean what you now say it means.

Personally, I don't see how DA2 could be disappointing at all. The only game I have ever played as much as I have DA2, barring any MMO games, is KOTOR. And I think that says a lot when I have put down nearly 300 hrs in the original ME(granted, I lost about 200 of those when I had a hard drive die on me).

[BellaStrega]

I really enjoyed DA2 myself. I really don't understand some of the criticisms I've read.

The reused maps didn't bother me. The only thing that did was the amount of combat and number of blood mages - and seeing that the combat exaggerated that number well beyond what was supposed to be present I just shrug and move on.

I feel like there's something in the reaction that has more to do with failed expectations than a failed game.

[Enduance XXVII]

Have you guys ever heard of LeBron James? He gets called worse things on a daily basis. Get's threats, people always talking about his mom. Where is his sexist twitter rant?

Modifié par Enduance XXVII, 23 février 2012 - 12:03 .

[BellaStrega]

Jennifer Hepler didn't have a twitter rant, and calling a bunch of guys virgins is hardly sexist.

Like I said earlier, what she tweeted was incredibly mild compared to what she was responding to. Are you really that oversensitive and thin-skinned that her tweet causes you so much pain?

Modifié par BellaStrega, 23 février 2012 - 12:12 .

[TheJediSaint]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

I don't know what a DCS title is, and google didn't help.

Digital Combat Simulator, it's the second google hit. Basically they're a series of high fidelity flight simulators. So far the series has covered the KA-50 Black Shark, a russian attack helicopter, and the A-10C Warthog. The North American P-51D Mustang is coming later this year,  and the Boeing F/A-18 sometime next year.  Try googling the A-10C startup sequence and you'll see that this sort of game isn't everyones cup of tea. I love them though, and fly coop mission pretty much every night with friends.

It is my cup of tea, and it's a very satisfying one at that.