1876 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyne]

Silfren wrote...

Cyne wrote...

What an awful situation. I have to say the comments Bioware used to respond to the attacks (on twitter) were no better than the original attacks. I am surprised and disappointed by their lack of professionalism. No employee deserves to be singled out and ridiculed, but no company should speak to their customers in such a way, even in retaliation. It lowers them to the standards of their targets and divides people - those with bioware and those against. The fact is, everyone wants the same thing in the end, a good game. This kind of conflict will only distract from that goal.

Bioware has EVERY right to speak to the people who attacked Hepler in any manner they choose.

The only way your comment makes sense is if you're actually suggesting that people who attacked Hepler are entitled to be treated better than they treated her because they paid money for the game.  Seriously?  I mean, seriously?

You see why this is nonsense?  Once you attack someone without cause, being a customer of the company whose employee you targeted for abuse is irrelevant.  You have NO moral high ground on which to complain.  

What's with this drive people have to draw moral equivalencies between things that are in no way equivalent?  This is NOT a case of "two wrongs don't make a right" and it certainly has nothing to do with "everyone wants the same thing in the end, a good game."  That latter statement is mind-boggling.  This has NOTHING to do with the game.  The ONLY thing which is relevant in this case is that a woman was singled out for abuse and harrassment.  The motivation of her abusers is irrelevant.  What work Hepler does is irrelevant.  How her employer responded is irrelevant.  The only relevancy here is that a woman was subjected to abuse.  Period. 

All the other crap you twittered on about is meaningless.  Why are you dithering on about how Bioware responded and the quality of the games, instead of the actual issue, which is that A. PERSON. WAS. ATTACKED.

Bioware can certainly choose to speak to them as they like, my point is that there are legitimate consequences for that kind of behavior - consequences which will pull them away from their main objective, which is making a good game. That point is entirely relevent, as it forms the context of the situation. And I am not saying that paying for a game gives you the right to harass its creators, that is absurd. What I'm saying is that when it does happen, it behooves bioware - as a professional gaming company - to respond in a manner that doesn't inflame it further, and doesn't destroy the basic level of respect between them and their fanbase.

Don't forget this is a business model first, and we are customers. If this was a casual situation, you'd be absolutely right and Bioware's response would be entirely appropriate. But it is not, and the manner in which harrasment is responded to will affect the future of the company, and Hepler's job. I am not condoning what happened to Hepler whatsoever, despite what you may think. I think it's horrible, honestly. But I also don't agree with bioware response (on twitter). They could have handled it better.

[Silfren]

Cyne wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Cyne wrote...

What an awful situation. I have to say the comments Bioware used to respond to the attacks (on twitter) were no better than the original attacks. I am surprised and disappointed by their lack of professionalism. No employee deserves to be singled out and ridiculed, but no company should speak to their customers in such a way, even in retaliation. It lowers them to the standards of their targets and divides people - those with bioware and those against. The fact is, everyone wants the same thing in the end, a good game. This kind of conflict will only distract from that goal.

Bioware has EVERY right to speak to the people who attacked Hepler in any manner they choose.

The only way your comment makes sense is if you're actually suggesting that people who attacked Hepler are entitled to be treated better than they treated her because they paid money for the game.  Seriously?  I mean, seriously?

You see why this is nonsense?  Once you attack someone without cause, being a customer of the company whose employee you targeted for abuse is irrelevant.  You have NO moral high ground on which to complain.  

What's with this drive people have to draw moral equivalencies between things that are in no way equivalent?  This is NOT a case of "two wrongs don't make a right" and it certainly has nothing to do with "everyone wants the same thing in the end, a good game."  That latter statement is mind-boggling.  This has NOTHING to do with the game.  The ONLY thing which is relevant in this case is that a woman was singled out for abuse and harrassment.  The motivation of her abusers is irrelevant.  What work Hepler does is irrelevant.  How her employer responded is irrelevant.  The only relevancy here is that a woman was subjected to abuse.  Period. 

All the other crap you twittered on about is meaningless.  Why are you dithering on about how Bioware responded and the quality of the games, instead of the actual issue, which is that A. PERSON. WAS. ATTACKED.

Bioware can certainly choose to speak to them as they like, my point is that there are legitimate consequences for that kind of behavior - consequences which will pull them away from their main objective, which is making a good game. That point is entirely relevent, as it forms the context of the situation. And I am not saying that paying for a game gives you the right to harass its creators, that is absurd. What I'm saying is that when it does happen, it behooves bioware - as a professional gaming company - to respond in a manner that doesn't inflame it further, and doesn't destroy the basic level of respect between them and their fanbase.

Don't forget this is a business model first, and we are customers. If this was a casual situation, you'd be absolutely right and Bioware's response would be entirely appropriate. But it is not, and the manner in which harrasment is responded to will affect the future of the company, and Hepler's job. I am not condoning what happened to Hepler whatsoever, despite what you may think. I think it's horrible, honestly. But I also don't agree with bioware response (on twitter). They could have handled it better.

Firstly, if you're referring to what I think you are, the response was not officially from Bioware.  From an employee, yes, but on his own time, from his personal account.  Yes, I'm aware that personal account or no, he represented Bioware and blah blah blah.  However, it was not an official Bioware stance, and that matters.

That said, I personally think a "f*ck you, a**holes" response was entirely appropriate.  These people were stalking, harrassing, and threatening Hepler.  I'm bloody sick of people talking about Bioware being unprofessional in their response when, meanwhile, other people were engaging in criminal activity against a human being.

Modifié par Silfren, 23 février 2012 - 10:57 .

[BellaStrega]

Customers don't deserve respect just because they're customers. Respect is a reciprocal thing.

What I mean by that is, the idea that customers must always be catered to no matter how badly they behave, is ridiculous. The customer is not always right. $60 does not buy you a free pass to treat people like rubbish just because they worked on a game that disappointed you (and I do not believe that it was just because of that).

That argument comes from someplace strange, where it's somehow wrong to work for a company - even on a freelance basis - and have your own opinions. Especially if those opinions involve what virulent haters should be doing with their own anatomy instead of trying to waste your time with their rubbish complaints.

If you depart the realms of polite and respectful behavior, demanding that you be given respect because of your status as a customer and your victim's status as an employee, you just sound like you're whining about the possibility that your poor behavior might have consequences. Horrific, extreme consequences like someone suggesting that you're a virgin (that's sarcasm, by the way) or telling you to fornicate with yourself.

The problem is not, never was, and never shall be Hepler's or Aaryn's professionalism. The problem is the people who thought it was okay to attack Hepler in the first place. Trying to make it about some nebulous concept of professionalism where being an employee means being an emotionless robot is just a sidetrack, and an attempt to blame the victim for not being a proper victim (after all, proper victims know not to fight back).

What should happen is that this kind of bull**** isn't tolerated by anyone.

Modifié par BellaStrega, 24 février 2012 - 12:16 .

[sojourner77]

I read the first 10 pages of comments, ran out of time and skipped to the end, so apologies if this has already been stated but even so, seems worth repeating for latecomers.

This is a genuine attempt to engage with those of you who are angry/frustrated about accusations that the attacks on Hepler were sexist. Which is not the same accusation at all, by the way, as that "these people only did what they did because they hate women". I'd really like to build some actual understanding here, not mutual anger and defensiveness, futile as that may seem.

To start - I don't think sexism was the primary motivating factor or anything. But gender is part of the equation, and trying to understand that might help understand how both Heplar and female gamers might feel the way they do.

*Women play non-combat games in much higher proportions than men. If you don't believe me, PM me and I'll link to the studies. Heplar's views on gaming are more representative of women than men. This is NOT saying only women want this, or all women want this, or even more women want this than don't. It's just saying it is a viewpoint likely to be more popular among women than men. I am guessing that the Facebook game, similarly, attracted larger proportions of women than other Bioware games have.

*Heplar's "crimes" included writing gay characters, and defending on video, the character of Isabella, a sexually assertive woman, who at one point seems to have an STD. Heplar's comments on the video talked about the importance of broadening the female stereotypes in games. She was repeatedly accused of having a social agenda to bring into her work by including characters who aren't part of a straight male fantasy world.

*The barrage of abuse directed at Heplar had a couple of common themes (This is BEFORE her response). Heplar's weight, and Heplar's attractiveness as a sexual/romantic partner. These are criticisms that women face all the time, because a huge number of men simply assume that these are the main things we care about - what we look like, and how much men want to go to bed with us. I would be deeply surprised if anyone can dredge up, from the hundreds of threads hating on Gaider, any comments that attacked him as a fat/thin/balding man who can't get laid. (I have no idea what David Gaidar looks like, btw). This isn't infuriating because women want to be thin and desired by abusive twitter boys, it's infuriating because it is another way of saying "you are only as valuable as your ass".

Gaming can feel like a really unwelcome place as a woman, or more specifically, it can feel like the price of admission is wanting exactly the same things that straight boys do. When games don't have stuff we want and we complain about it (FemShep videos for ME2) we get told that we simply don't represent enough consumers to count, so tough luck. When they DO have stuff more women want (more varied images of women) we get told we're ruining games by being consumers.

So no, this isn't all about gender by any means. But it's there, lurking in the picture somehow, and discounting it means you may not be getting the whole picture.

[Silfren]

sojourner77 wrote...

I read the first 10 pages of comments, ran out of time and skipped to the end, so apologies if this has already been stated but even so, seems worth repeating for latecomers.

This is a genuine attempt to engage with those of you who are angry/frustrated about accusations that the attacks on Hepler were sexist. Which is not the same accusation at all, by the way, as that "these people only did what they did because they hate women". I'd really like to build some actual understanding here, not mutual anger and defensiveness, futile as that may seem.

To start - I don't think sexism was the primary motivating factor or anything. But gender is part of the equation, and trying to understand that might help understand how both Heplar and female gamers might feel the way they do.

*Women play non-combat games in much higher proportions than men. If you don't believe me, PM me and I'll link to the studies. Heplar's views on gaming are more representative of women than men. This is NOT saying only women want this, or all women want this, or even more women want this than don't. It's just saying it is a viewpoint likely to be more popular among women than men. I am guessing that the Facebook game, similarly, attracted larger proportions of women than other Bioware games have.

*Heplar's "crimes" included writing gay characters, and defending on video, the character of Isabella, a sexually assertive woman, who at one point seems to have an STD. Heplar's comments on the video talked about the importance of broadening the female stereotypes in games. She was repeatedly accused of having a social agenda to bring into her work by including characters who aren't part of a straight male fantasy world.

*The barrage of abuse directed at Heplar had a couple of common themes (This is BEFORE her response). Heplar's weight, and Heplar's attractiveness as a sexual/romantic partner. These are criticisms that women face all the time, because a huge number of men simply assume that these are the main things we care about - what we look like, and how much men want to go to bed with us. I would be deeply surprised if anyone can dredge up, from the hundreds of threads hating on Gaider, any comments that attacked him as a fat/thin/balding man who can't get laid. (I have no idea what David Gaidar looks like, btw). This isn't infuriating because women want to be thin and desired by abusive twitter boys, it's infuriating because it is another way of saying "you are only as valuable as your ass".

Gaming can feel like a really unwelcome place as a woman, or more specifically, it can feel like the price of admission is wanting exactly the same things that straight boys do. When games don't have stuff we want and we complain about it (FemShep videos for ME2) we get told that we simply don't represent enough consumers to count, so tough luck. When they DO have stuff more women want (more varied images of women) we get told we're ruining games by being consumers.

So no, this isn't all about gender by any means. But it's there, lurking in the picture somehow, and discounting it means you may not be getting the whole picture.

I'm not one of the persons this is directed at, but I'll throw in my two cents anyway, 'cuz I'm contrary like that.

I do think sexism was a primary motivating factor in this.  Possibly not, but I personally believe it was.  Certainly I don't think it can be argued that sexism was not THE factor behind the form the attacks took.  

Be that as it may, when a person uses gendered insults, there's no question that sexism is at play.  If you call a woman a sl*t for behavior that has zero bearing on her sexual activity, you're being sexist.  Likewise if you call her fat or ugly even though you're ONLY calling her such because you dislike something she said.  Had Gaider been the victim of these attacks, you can bet that whatever was said about him, he would NOT have been called a sl*t.  He also wouldn't have faced rape threats.  He probably would have had his attractiveness called into question, but the likelihood of such is always a near certainty for a woman, while it simply is not for men.  When men are attacked in the way Hepler was, it's unusual enough to be attention-getting.  With women, however, this sort of thing happens all the time.  So often, in fact, that it becomes invisible and so mainstream that people raise holy hell at the mere suggestion of sexism and, as has happened here, stumble over one another in their haste to disprove it.

Also, and I'm gonna ruffle feathers with this one, but so be it: I think a lot of people who are denying either that sexism was a major factor or even not a factor at all do so because they see what is being pointed to as being sexist, recognize it as behavior they themselves engage in whenever they want to discredit a woman, and are therefore forced to deny sexism here.  Otherwise they would have to admit that whenever they go after a woman and call her a sl*t or a fat ugly slob, they are in the wrong, even if their dislike of that woman is based on non-sexist grounds.  After all, there is a tendency among people to believe that a person does something "wrong," that they then lose the right not to be subjected to bigotry.  Example: a person of color tells a lie and gets caught.  So the person she lied to becomes angry and calls her a lying n-word.  When called on it, they object to being called out for their racism because they figure the woman committed a wrong and therefore loses the right not to be called a racist term.  It is precisely the same thing in regards to women.  A woman doing something wrong does NOT give anyone a free pass to use sexism against her.  Too many people can't grasp that simple fact, however.

Modifié par Silfren, 24 février 2012 - 01:16 .

[MadLaughter]

I've responded to your PM.

[Silfren]

And you needed to post here to tell me that? LOL. I'd have gotten a PM notification on my next refresh, but thank you.

[MadLaughter]

Uh..sorry?

[Aldyramon]

I didn't really know what was going on until i read some articles on gaming sites, but I have to say I am disgusted by the behavior of theses "gamers". Nobody deserves to be treated like Jennifer Hepler.
Even before Bioware Jennifer Hepler has worked on many P&P RPGs, even one of my favorites Shadowrun. So I am pretty impressed by her work before and while working for Bioware and more than confident, that she is a great writer and will deliver many great stories in the future.

This whole affair gives the entire gaming community a bad reputation and every "Games make people dumb/violent/..." watchdogs will laugh up their sleeves for this free ammunition provided by the gaming community.

Nobody thinks a fast-forward for DVDs or BlueRays is stupid, because "a movie does not work that way"

[thegoldfinch]

sojourner77 wrote...

When games don't have stuff we want and
we complain about it (FemShep videos for ME2) we get told that we simply
don't represent enough consumers to count, so tough luck. When they DO
have stuff more women want (more varied images of women) we get told
we're ruining games by being consumers.



So no, this isn't all
about gender by any means. But it's there, lurking in the picture
somehow, and discounting it means you may not be getting the whole
picture.

Right. A lot of the inital rage was, I think, was about casual gamers encroaching on the territory of hardcore gamers. There have been several good articles on how gaming is very much like a sport even though it isn't physical. A lot of men and boys have been drawn to it because of the competitive nature and the good feeling you get by triumphing over a difficult challenge. The problem is, is that games are evolving. Storytelling is finding a very interesting niche inside the medium and there are many consumers flocking to market just for that. I certainly did when I was young with Knights of the Old Republic and I still turn to games for the same thing. I like a good shooter every once and a while and I enjoy the feeling of tactically eliminating a wave of enemies, yeah, but there is nothing like being the lead character in an enthralling story in which I can choose to direct.

Hardcore gamers who play to triumph over a challenge are seeing the casual gaming market as a bunch of people with metaphorical cheat codes. What honor is there in skipping combat or making it super easy? Well, there is no honor for casual gamers or gamers who play for the story. Honor doesn't even factor into the equation. It's immersion that is important. It's fun that is important - and fun for many means story, character, setting, music, tone, feel, and more - not just combat.

Jennifer Hepler had an opinion that is not popular with people who are competitive and, by proxy, are aggressive to varying degrees. People who are aggressive and competitive will a lot of things to "win", even if the competition isn't entirely valid because it's an internet argument. They'll resort to insults because they can't fight on a phyiscal or digital field, and the insults will turn into flagrant sexism because it's easy and it burns and it brings up painful memories, and soon the whole thing dissolves into a mire of hate and bigotry.

Silfren wrote...

I do think sexism was a primary motivating factor in this.  Possibly not, but I personally believe it was.  Certainly I don't think it can be argued that sexism was not THE factor behind the form the attacks took. 

[snip]

Again, all of the things you say are great and you are great.

You mentioned that if Gaider had said the same things while also publicly supporting homosexuality and different female roles in games as Hepler did and does, he would not have been called a sl-t or been met with rape threats. I agree. It's pretty clear that most of the insults are gendered. When someone says that calling a woman the c-word, fat, or a myriad of other gendered words I am not allowed to write here is a very sexist action, those throwing the insults always backtrack. No, duh, they're not sexist. You're just overreacting. And maybe everyone else is sexist, but not them. They're targetting her gender and harrassing her using gender-specific words and phrases to lend credence to their very logical argument, and not because they're sexist. Also, she brought this on herself and she deserved it and she was just asking for it and she's a woman on the internet so she should get used to it. Did I fill up the sexism excuse bingo card yet?

Going back to the notion of Gaider and Hepler swapping places , I strongly believe Gaider's heterosexuality, or lack thereof, would have instead been called into question by means of an insult, rather than people making fun of him for his gender. People would have claimed he had a 'gay agenda'. We don't need to go back to that what-about-the-menz Straight Male Gamer fiasco. What that says about that portion of the gaming community, I do not want to think about.

Sometimes I just can't believe that people like this exist. I mean, I know they exist. I logically, rationally recognize their actions and I see their words but my brain does not want to acknowlege that there are people so small minded, ignorant, and horrible living on the same planet as me.

Again, I hope Jennifer is okay. Garbage like this is why I've had to quit jobs in the past.

Modifié par pixieface, 24 février 2012 - 02:06 .

[Remmak]

Enduance XXVII wrote...
Yes because if a guy said it he would be fired on the spot

I already had this discussion with someone earlier in this post, but no, he probably wouldn't be fired.

People that bring up your 'argument' are missing some important factors of the context in which that comment was said. Firstly, the people attacking Hepler were most likely primarily (if not entirely) male. So. If a man said to those men attacking him that he has a penis and a game industry job and they're just jealous, it wouldn't make any sense. There is no sexist equation here because it's a man talking to other men (who presumably all have penises, yes?).

Now, reverse the mob and turn them into women (which as said previously, is unlikely). If a man said to them "I have a penis and a job in the industry and you're just jealous" a woman is just gonna lawl or roll her eyes, because most of the people in the industry are men and thus have a penis, and also because men having things women don't have is the very basis of a patriarchal society. It's essentially saying you're jealous not because I have a job in the game industry and you don't, but because I am a man and you aren't, and that's why femisnism came about in the first place.

[ScottishMartialArts]

Silfren wrote...

What you're missing is that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that this would not have happened even if DA2 had been a far more superior game than it turned out to be, and there had been no fan backlash at all.

Why is there no reason whatsoever to believe that? Haven't I spent the last several posts listing reasons why this might be true? You can't just declare by fiat that there's no reason to believe something. You argue that this started because of Hepler's fast-forward comment and that that is completely independent of the hit Bioware took to its popularity with Dragon Age II. You haven't explained, however, why the two are mutually exclusive. You've offered an alternative explanation but you haven't proved the original argument wrong. Furthermore, why do you think the reddit folks dug up a 6 year old interview with a Bioware employee in the first place? Wouldn't there already have to be some animus to go quote mining like that? I certainly think so.

Modifié par ScottishMartialArts, 24 février 2012 - 02:45 .

[Silfren]

pixieface wrote...

sojourner77 wrote...

When games don't have stuff we want and
we complain about it (FemShep videos for ME2) we get told that we simply
don't represent enough consumers to count, so tough luck. When they DO
have stuff more women want (more varied images of women) we get told
we're ruining games by being consumers.



So no, this isn't all
about gender by any means. But it's there, lurking in the picture
somehow, and discounting it means you may not be getting the whole
picture.

Right. A lot of the inital rage was, I think, was about casual gamers encroaching on the territory of hardcore gamers. There have been several good articles on how gaming is very much like a sport even though it isn't physical. A lot of men and boys have been drawn to it because of the competitive nature and the good feeling you get by triumphing over a difficult challenge. The problem is, is that games are evolving. Storytelling is finding a very interesting niche inside the medium and there are many consumers flocking to market just for that. I certainly did when I was young with Knights of the Old Republic and I still turn to games for the same thing. I like a good shooter every once and a while and I enjoy the feeling of tactically eliminating a wave of enemies, yeah, but there is nothing like being the lead character in an enthralling story in which I can choose to direct.

Hardcore gamers who play to triumph over a challenge are seeing the casual gaming market as a bunch of people with metaphorical cheat codes. What honor is there in skipping combat or making it super easy? Well, there is no honor for casual gamers or gamers who play for the story. Honor doesn't even factor into the equation. It's immersion that is important. It's fun that is important - and fun for many means story, character, setting, music, tone, feel, and more - not just combat.

Jennifer Hepler had an opinion that is not popular with people who are competitive and, by proxy, are aggressive to varying degrees. People who are aggressive and competitive will a lot of things to "win", even if the competition isn't entirely valid because it's an internet argument. They'll resort to insults because they can't fight on a phyiscal or digital field, and the insults will turn into flagrant sexism because it's easy and it burns and it brings up painful memories, and soon the whole thing dissolves into a mire of hate and bigotry.

Silfren wrote...

I do think sexism was a primary motivating factor in this.  Possibly not, but I personally believe it was.  Certainly I don't think it can be argued that sexism was not THE factor behind the form the attacks took. 

[snip]

Again, all of the things you say are great and you are great.

You mentioned that if Gaider had said the same things while also publicly supporting homosexuality and different female roles in games as Hepler did and does, he would not have been called a sl-t or been met with rape threats. I agree. It's pretty clear that most of the insults are gendered. When someone says that calling a woman the c-word, fat, or a myriad of other gendered words I am not allowed to write here is a very sexist action, those throwing the insults always backtrack. No, duh, they're not sexist. You're just overreacting. And maybe everyone else is sexist, but not them. They're targetting her gender and harrassing her using gender-specific words and phrases to lend credence to their very logical argument, and not because they're sexist. Also, she brought this on herself and she deserved it and she was just asking for it and she's a woman on the internet so she should get used to it. Did I fill up the sexism excuse bingo card yet?

Going back to the notion of Gaider and Hepler swapping places , I strongly believe Gaider's heterosexuality, or lack thereof, would have instead been called into question by means of an insult, rather than people making fun of him for his gender. People would have claimed he had a 'gay agenda'. We don't need to go back to that what-about-the-menz Straight Male Gamer fiasco. What that says about that portion of the gaming community, I do not want to think about.

Sometimes I just can't believe that people like this exist. I mean, I know they exist. I logically, rationally recognize their actions and I see their words but my brain does not want to acknowlege that there are people so small minded, ignorant, and horrible living on the same planet as me.

Again, I hope Jennifer is okay. Garbage like this is why I've had to quit jobs in the past.

I've been part of the feminist blogging community for about a decade, and identified as part of the queer community for the last several years.  Unfortunately, I'm used to it all, from the sexist campaign against Hepler, to the Anti-Feminist Bingo nonsense, and the backtracking denials.  All this sh*t gets dragged out every. single. time. a woman has the audacity to work in a male-dominated profession. 

Early on in this thread, someone called feminism "the real cancer."  I think a lot of folks, including a few in this thread, actually do believe that, but not for the reasons they'll claim.  After all, it is feminism that allows Hepler to be a woman in the gaming industry today, and a lot of dudebros just can't STAND that fact.

[skcih-deraj]

I'm confuzzled what happened?

[Homebound]

Jennifer Im not sure if you'll ever read this but I just wanted you to know that I am sorry for what happened to you. While some people are like that, who'll harm you just because they disagree with something you've said, know that there are people out there who don't. Not everyone is that emotionally immature to destroy another person's life over a disagreement over something so trivial as a videogame. Don't let this beat you. Don't let it destroy you. Instead, use it to grow and be better than the ones who threw you down in this hellhole you found yourself in.

[Silfren]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

Silfren wrote...

What you're missing is that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that this would not have happened even if DA2 had been a far more superior game than it turned out to be, and there had been no fan backlash at all.

Why is there no reason whatsoever to believe that? Haven't I spent the last several posts listing reasons why this might be true? You can't just declare by fiat that there's no reason to believe something. You argue that this started because of Hepler's fast-forward comment and that that is completely independent of the hit Bioware took to its popularity with Dragon Age II. You haven't explained, however, why the two are mutually exclusive. You've offered an alternative explanation but you haven't proved the original argument wrong. Furthermore, why do you think the reddit folks dug up a 6 year old interview with a Bioware employee in the first place? Wouldn't there already have to be some animus to go quote mining like that? I certainly think so.

The only thing I've seen you do for your last several posts is go on about how Hepler was attacked because DA2 was disappointing to fans and that that detail, the disappointment created by Bioware, is the bigger and more interesting issue, and is what you want to talk about. 

I'm saying that I fully believe that had DA2 been completely positively received and had no major flaws, that Hepler would still have had an interview wherein she said that she would like a fast-forward button for combat, and the sexist jerks who attacked her now, would have done likewise even then.  I don't think this would have happened had Gaider or Laidlaw or Priestly or Woo been the one to make the comment.  Even if it had happened to one of them, it nevertheless would most likely not happened on the same scale as it did for Hepler, and also any attacks which were personal, while being inappropriately personal and rude, would still not have been sexist.  When men get attacked, most often it is their intelligence or competence which is called into question.  Comments might be made that have nothing to do with the comment they made that pissed everyone off, such as "fat" or "ugly " or "bald," but ONLY if they actually are fat, bald, or unconventionally attractive.  A thin man doesn't get called fat if he's irritated someone with his opinion, but women who express unpopular opinions get called fat very often even when they're thin.

This is not an isolated incident.  I've literally lost track of the number of times I've watched men dogpile on a woman for saying something they didn't like, and who then proceeded to attack not her ideas, but her gender, her weight, her level of attractiveness, and call her a sl*t, b*tch, or c*nt, and make literal rape threats and murder threats against her, and even go so far as to dig up, and share, her contact information so that she started receiving harrassing phone calls and even threatening letters.  This happened because there are men who really, really, hate it when women get involved in "their" games, whether as players or as industry employees.  That is why this happened, and that's proved by the nature of responses from men amounting to "see what happens when women get involved in our games?"

What was done to Hepler follows a very clear and specific pattern.  Any woman who has spent any length of time in a predominantly women-oriented forum can tell you this. 

[Homebound]

Silfren wrote...

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

Silfren wrote...

What you're missing is that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that this would not have happened even if DA2 had been a far more superior game than it turned out to be, and there had been no fan backlash at all.

Why is there no reason whatsoever to believe that? Haven't I spent the last several posts listing reasons why this might be true? You can't just declare by fiat that there's no reason to believe something. You argue that this started because of Hepler's fast-forward comment and that that is completely independent of the hit Bioware took to its popularity with Dragon Age II. You haven't explained, however, why the two are mutually exclusive. You've offered an alternative explanation but you haven't proved the original argument wrong. Furthermore, why do you think the reddit folks dug up a 6 year old interview with a Bioware employee in the first place? Wouldn't there already have to be some animus to go quote mining like that? I certainly think so.

The only thing I've seen you do for your last several posts is go on about how Hepler was attacked because DA2 was disappointing to fans and that that detail, the disappointment created by Bioware, is the bigger and more interesting issue, and is what you want to talk about. 

I'm saying that I fully believe that had DA2 been completely positively received and had no major flaws, that Hepler would still have had an interview wherein she said that she would like a fast-forward button for combat, and the sexist jerks who attacked her now, would have done likewise even then.  I don't think this would have happened had Gaider or Laidlaw or Priestly or Woo been the one to make the comment.  Even if it had happened to one of them, it nevertheless would most likely not happened on the same scale as it did for Hepler, and also any attacks which were personal, while being inappropriately personal and rude, would still not have been sexist.  When men get attacked, most often it is their intelligence or competence which is called into question.  Comments might be made that have nothing to do with the comment they made that pissed everyone off, such as "fat" or "ugly " or "bald," but ONLY if they actually are fat, bald, or unconventionally attractive.  A thin man doesn't get called fat if he's irritated someone with his opinion, but women who express unpopular opinions get called fat very often even when they're thin.

This is not an isolated incident.  I've literally lost track of the number of times I've watched men dogpile on a woman for saying something they didn't like, and who then proceeded to attack not her ideas, but her gender, her weight, her level of attractiveness, and call her a sl*t, b*tch, or c*nt, and make literal rape threats and murder threats against her, and even go so far as to dig up, and share, her contact information so that she started receiving harrassing phone calls and even threatening letters.  This happened because there are men who really, really, hate it when women get involved in "their" games, whether as players or as industry employees.  That is why this happened, and that's proved by the nature of responses from men amounting to "see what happens when women get involved in our games?"

What was done to Hepler follows a very clear and specific pattern.  Any woman who has spent any length of time in a predominantly women-oriented forum can tell you this. 

I think we can all agree, man or woman, this is not how you treat other people.

[larry3]

i agree

[Silfren]

skcih-deraj wrote...

I'm confuzzled what happened?

The gist of it is that a group of people came across a six year old interview with Jennifer Hepler, took issue with what she said there, and proceeded to launch an all-out attack on her that involved taking her statements out of context and also falsifying evidence of things she did NOT say, and escalated to a massive campaign of abuse, including rape and death threats, and went so far as to calling Hepler's phone.

You can go to google for the details. 

[ScottishMartialArts]

Silfren wrote...

The only thing I've seen you do for your last several posts is go on about how Hepler was attacked because DA2 was disappointing to fans and that that detail, the disappointment created by Bioware, is the bigger and more interesting issue, and is what you want to talk about. 

You still haven't shown that my pet explanation is mutually exclusive from yours.

You've mentioned in your past two posts that you subscribe to an ideology. It would make sense then that you would interpret what happened to Hepler in the terms of that ideology. I don't dispute that sexism was involved with what happened to Hepler. Where we disagree is on whether or not sexism was the ONLY motivating factor, unless I have misunderstood your argument. Because you subscribe to an ideology, I believe you are precluding other possibilities that don't fit your ideology's narrative. I can't persuade you to look at the issue from another angle if doing so compromises the narrative set forth by your ideology. With that in mind, I think it would probably be best to just agree to disagree.

[Silfren]

Hellbound555 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

Silfren wrote...

What you're missing is that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that this would not have happened even if DA2 had been a far more superior game than it turned out to be, and there had been no fan backlash at all.

Why is there no reason whatsoever to believe that? Haven't I spent the last several posts listing reasons why this might be true? You can't just declare by fiat that there's no reason to believe something. You argue that this started because of Hepler's fast-forward comment and that that is completely independent of the hit Bioware took to its popularity with Dragon Age II. You haven't explained, however, why the two are mutually exclusive. You've offered an alternative explanation but you haven't proved the original argument wrong. Furthermore, why do you think the reddit folks dug up a 6 year old interview with a Bioware employee in the first place? Wouldn't there already have to be some animus to go quote mining like that? I certainly think so.

The only thing I've seen you do for your last several posts is go on about how Hepler was attacked because DA2 was disappointing to fans and that that detail, the disappointment created by Bioware, is the bigger and more interesting issue, and is what you want to talk about. 

I'm saying that I fully believe that had DA2 been completely positively received and had no major flaws, that Hepler would still have had an interview wherein she said that she would like a fast-forward button for combat, and the sexist jerks who attacked her now, would have done likewise even then.  I don't think this would have happened had Gaider or Laidlaw or Priestly or Woo been the one to make the comment.  Even if it had happened to one of them, it nevertheless would most likely not happened on the same scale as it did for Hepler, and also any attacks which were personal, while being inappropriately personal and rude, would still not have been sexist.  When men get attacked, most often it is their intelligence or competence which is called into question.  Comments might be made that have nothing to do with the comment they made that pissed everyone off, such as "fat" or "ugly " or "bald," but ONLY if they actually are fat, bald, or unconventionally attractive.  A thin man doesn't get called fat if he's irritated someone with his opinion, but women who express unpopular opinions get called fat very often even when they're thin.

This is not an isolated incident.  I've literally lost track of the number of times I've watched men dogpile on a woman for saying something they didn't like, and who then proceeded to attack not her ideas, but her gender, her weight, her level of attractiveness, and call her a sl*t, b*tch, or c*nt, and make literal rape threats and murder threats against her, and even go so far as to dig up, and share, her contact information so that she started receiving harrassing phone calls and even threatening letters.  This happened because there are men who really, really, hate it when women get involved in "their" games, whether as players or as industry employees.  That is why this happened, and that's proved by the nature of responses from men amounting to "see what happens when women get involved in our games?"

What was done to Hepler follows a very clear and specific pattern.  Any woman who has spent any length of time in a predominantly women-oriented forum can tell you this. 

I think we can all agree, man or woman, this is not how you treat other people.

I do agree with that statement, but I'm not going to waste time pretending that gender played no role in this.  One of my favorite comments from someone denying the sexism early on in this thread, actually made the statement "People would accept females in gaming if they didn't do the whole LOOK
AT ME IM A GRRRL XD I PLAY GAEMS personality." (Underline mine).

See that?  A statement from a guy trying to deny that sexism played any role in the attack on Hepler phrased their comment to make "people" refer specifically to men and to specifically exclude women, and acknowledges that women are not accepted in the gaming industry.  The sheer amount of cognitive dissonance required for that poster to not see their own internalized sexism must surely be painful.

[Silfren]

ScottishMartialArts wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The only thing I've seen you do for your last several posts is go on about how Hepler was attacked because DA2 was disappointing to fans and that that detail, the disappointment created by Bioware, is the bigger and more interesting issue, and is what you want to talk about. 

You still haven't shown that my pet explanation is mutually exclusive from yours.

You've mentioned in your past two posts that you subscribe to an ideology. It would make sense then that you would interpret what happened to Hepler in the terms of that ideology. I don't dispute that sexism was involved with what happened to Hepler. Where we disagree is on whether or not sexism was the ONLY motivating factor, unless I have misunderstood your argument. Because you subscribe to an ideology, I believe you are precluding other possibilities that don't fit your ideology's narrative. I can't persuade you to look at the issue from another angle if doing so compromises the narrative set forth by your ideology. With that in mind, I think it would probably be best to just agree to disagree.

It would be more accurate that I subscribe to my "ideology" as you put it specifically because of sh*t like this.  I am not excluding any other possible interpretation because it doesn't "fit my ideology's narrative," but because I don't think other interpretations adequately explain why this happened.  Instead of just concluding that I see sexism everywhere because I'm a feminist, how about accepting that I see sexism at play because there's sexism at play?

I don't think your alternative interpretation is what happened here because I have observed this very phenomenon numerous times.  It is upon that experience which I base my belief that this would not have happened had Gaider or another man involved with Bioware made the remarks that triggered the attacks.

Either way, all I know is that you have actually said that you think the bigger and more interesting issue is the disappointment Bioware created when they released DA2.  You have also said that you believe this disappointment, as a legitimate opinion on the part of fans, is why the attack took place. 

That is victim-blaming, whatever else can be said.  So until you can either get that and move beyond it, then I'm not really going to focus on anything else you have to say. 

Modifié par Silfren, 24 février 2012 - 04:36 .

[BellaStrega]

Disappointment is a legitimate reaction. Targeting a specific person for abuse and bullying is not. The two should not be linked as any kind of explanation.

[Homebound]

From my point of view, Hepler was attacked because of what she said, and her gender was used to attack her.
How people felt about DA2 fueled that attack I think.

Anyways, I hope Hepler is ok.

Modifié par Hellbound555, 24 février 2012 - 04:27 .