1876 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

Ajirasan wrote...

These kind of attacks doesn't happen without a reason. I don't blame Jennifer Helper but something is wrong. Bioware started to crumble.

There is no good or valid reason to personally attack anyone over a video game. Constructive criticism of the game itself is valid. Questioning the decision making process in a civil manner is valid. 

Name calling, insults and threats are way beyond the reasonable.  The comments aimed at Ms. Hepler passed into the criminal. There is no justification for what happened.

Some gamers are upset with DA2 that is fine. Voice your disagreement in a civil manner. Personal attacks have no place in a civil discussion of the issues about the game. What was hurled at Ms. Hepler had almost nothing to do with the game.

[mosdefinition]

[Not the thread for that, as we've mentioned many, many times]

Modifié par JohnEpler, 27 février 2012 - 08:33 .

[Realmzmaster]

[Response to off-topic post removed]

Modifié par JohnEpler, 27 février 2012 - 08:33 .

[Scarlet Rabbi]

I seem to recall Mr. Laidlaw recieving an outpouring of horrendous insults, verbal abuse AND death threats when DA II dropped. Not limited to just the forums either, his Twitter was also bombarded with verbal filth and calls for his assassination. There was no swarm in massive numbers like I see here rushing to his defense and there was not a penny donated in his name to 'Bullying Canada'. Why is that?

Well, it is because Mr. Laidlaw kept a cool, professional head and laid low during the bashing against him and didn't throw insults back at the trolls because that wouls have been the most stupidest thing he could have done. I love how some of these knights-in-shining-armor for Jennifer Hepler are quick to say she was 'justified' in insulting those who were insulting her...lulz

Yeah, nothing works like fighting fire with fire, huh?

Whether or not she was 'justified' in making trading insults with some of these trolls isn't the point dear, is it? The question is was it the 'right' thing to do, from a professional AND personal stand-point? And the answer is of course it wasn't. The quickest way to let someone know that they're getting to you is to answer back to them. This is the internet, who hasn't had horrible insults hurled at them? She only poured gasoline into the fire by responding back...but hey I guess it worked out for her benefit, right?

She now has a whole army of people rushing up to give her tissue for her hurt feelings and even got the head honcho to donate $1,000 in her name to Bullying Canada, I never knew engaging trolls in childish internet arguments could have such lavish benefits.

I was never a fan of Mike Laidlaw ( and I'm still not, to be fair) but, in retrospect, after seeing the way he handled his 'bullying', insults and death threats, I have a whole new level of respect for him. He even made a 'Thank You' thread to some of the very fans who were insulting him a few months after DA II dropped. Is there a more appropiate picture of level-headedness and professionalism than that? When put side-by-side by this Hepler situation it makes her and Bioware look all the weaker; Hepler squatted down to the trolls level and engaged them, then when they turned up the fire she retreated and Bioware sets up a thread so everyone can come and pat her on the back and whisper 'it's OK' to her. This has little to do with her writing at this point and more to do with unprofessionalism now.

And....once again, the question is not was she justified in saying what she said, but was it the right thing (personally and professionally) to do? Any non-femInist and non-biased person knows the correct answer.

[Russalka]

Didn't her reply come after most of that crap had happened?

[Firky]

I think there's a fair bit incorrect about that, but I guess I'll just say this, because I know it for sure.

"...his Twitter was also bombarded with verbal filth and calls for his assassination."

He wasn't on Twitter until months after DA2. (I'm glad he's on Twitter now because he talks a lot about games and is rather an interesting guy all around.)

Modifié par Firky, 27 février 2012 - 08:33 .

[Scarlet Rabbi]

^He may have joined Twitter months after DA II dropped, but it still was attacked with hateful insults and there was indeed threats too. If anything that just shows the professionalism he has that I spoke about. Even months after DA II dropped people were STILL riding him and he never once lashed back negatively. The emotional control displayed by Laidlaw should be studied vigoriously by this Jennifer Hepler person.

[Firky]

I'm not disputing that Laidlaw is a) professional, was given a lot of stick (although I don't recall it being based on his appearance.)

Edit: Oh, OK. You meant he was hassled on Twitter after the fact. Yeah, fair enough, that's a slightly different point. (But I doubt it was to the same degree. That's just a guess.)

(In my experience of twitter, tweeting someone is a lot closer to direct face to face conversation than posting on a forum. But that's really just my experience of it. Am I making that point to defend Hepler's retort? No. I don't think she needs defending. BioWare already did that pretty neatly, IMO, thankfully.)

Modifié par Firky, 27 février 2012 - 09:14 .

[Stanley Woo]

Not that it has anything to do with our support for Jennifer, but the "attacks" against Mike were largely confined to the Dragon Age II forums and were of the sort one normally finds within internet forums. There was a lot of hate, much swearing and calls for his firing, but actual death threats, if any, were few and far between. Because it was limited to the forum, we were able to control the comments (or those making them) to a certain degree. His personal life, as far as I know, was unaffected, and the situation resolved itself a few weeks after Dragon Age II's release.

Threats against Ms. Hepler and her family occurred outside of these forums and were a concerted effort by some to be intentionally harmful. People have invaded her privacy, and from what I understand, have been going on for months. There is nothing "professional" about being subjected to that sort of abuse and behaviour for any length of time. Those who sink so low as to threaten, abuse, or otherwise malign our developers are no real fans of ours and should not expect to be dealt with the same courteous, professional manner in which we deal with our actual fans (both whose who agree and those who respectfully disagree with us) here in the community.

[Wozearly]

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

I seem to recall Mr. Laidlaw recieving an outpouring of horrendous insults, verbal abuse AND death threats when DA II dropped. Not limited to just the forums either, his Twitter was also bombarded with verbal filth and calls for his assassination. There was no swarm in massive numbers like I see here rushing to his defense and there was not a penny donated in his name to 'Bullying Canada'. Why is that?

..snip...

This is veering gently off-topic, but I agree that Mike Laidlaw handled the torrent of vitriol directed at him personally in a highly professional manner. That his first return to the forums a short while after people had been yelling at him to be sacked was to engage constructively with the community on a constructive thread really raised my opinion of him.

If you look back at the threads, you'll also find a fair few people at the time were 'standing up' for him when it came to the calls for sackings, etc, even if they weren't fans of the new direction of DA2. I should know, I was one of them.

In fairness, there's also a huge difference between what a lead developer who is likely to be somewhat used to the spotlight and strongly worded opinions from players might expect, compared to the writers who are generally a lot more in the background.

Whatever Jennifer Hepler 'should' or 'should not' have done is irrelevant. She should never have been on the receiving end of this type of abuse in the first place (neither should Mike, to be fair) and its all too easy to look at the situation from a safe distance and pick it apart with the benefit of hindsight.

Its clear that the majority of fans (well, at least those visiting on here) are very much with Bioware in being angry about the situation and supportive towards Hepler. If that's a wake-up call for us as fans to stamp on personal attacks on Bioware employees rather than letting them slide, so much the better.

[Briiel]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not that it has anything to do with our support for Jennifer, but the "attacks" against Mike were largely confined to the Dragon Age II forums and were of the sort one normally finds within internet forums. There was a lot of hate, much swearing and calls for his firing, but actual death threats, if any, were few and far between. Because it was limited to the forum, we were able to control the comments (or those making them) to a certain degree. His personal life, as far as I know, was unaffected, and the situation resolved itself a few weeks after Dragon Age II's release.

Threats against Ms. Hepler and her family occurred outside of these forums and were a concerted effort by some to be intentionally harmful. People have invaded her privacy, and from what I understand, have been going on for months. There is nothing "professional" about being subjected to that sort of abuse and behaviour for any length of time. Those who sink so low as to threaten, abuse, or otherwise malign our developers are no real fans of ours and should not expect to be dealt with the same courteous, professional manner in which we deal with our actual fans (both whose who agree and those who respectfully disagree with us) here in the community.

I agree with you on this. Thank You

[Megaton_Hope]

Russalka wrote...

Didn't her reply come after most of that crap had happened?

If you mean the Tweet about how her detractors are jealous, that'd be nine days ago.

[Teddie Sage]

*sighs* I really wish people could be more tolerant. I feel saddened, knowing there's so much bullying going around.

[Ranicus56]

I don't really know whats going on but bullying is just wrong. Best of luck to Jennifer and the rest of the Bioware team. <3

[Esquin]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Off-topic discussions and some inappropriate comments removed. This is not a thread for individuals to get on soapboxes, or for extended debate on sociopolitical issues. This is also not a thread to criticize the direction of BioWare games or let us know what you think of Anders or same-sex relationships in games.

This thread was created to show our support for our friend and colleague, Jennifer Hepler, so let's try to keep it somewhat on topic, please. Thank you.

And this is the problem.

A group who acted in a way that is without a doubt wrong in every single way has given this woman a free pass. Plenty of people in this topic already have shown this to be true. Any time someone makes a comment about Heplers opinions or beliefs on game development they are accused of trolling or bullying. 

So thanks to a group of children who couldn't act like adults, those of us who can give contrsuctive comments are no longer able to do so. Thats hardly fair.

[Esquin]

Ranicus56 wrote...

I don't really know whats going on but bullying is just wrong. Best of luck to Jennifer and the rest of the Bioware team. <3

Of course bullying is wrong. But the reasons that inspired the bullying were real and genuine concerns.

People had concerns about her gameplay ideas and the systems she might try to push for in future. Things that would be, in many peoples opinions, a bad more for the gaming industry. The things she was suggesting would separate gameplay and story. Destroying the integration of the 2. 

Not to mention that many people just think she's a poor writer. 

I'm not condoning bullying. I'm just saying that to dismiss the reasons for peopels displeasure just because of the way a small group acted on it is short sighted. There are many of us who share the same displeasure at her beliefs and writing ability who are trying to convey those beliefs properly. We shouldn't be dismissed.

[John Epler]

Esquin wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Off-topic discussions and some inappropriate comments removed. This is not a thread for individuals to get on soapboxes, or for extended debate on sociopolitical issues. This is also not a thread to criticize the direction of BioWare games or let us know what you think of Anders or same-sex relationships in games.

This thread was created to show our support for our friend and colleague, Jennifer Hepler, so let's try to keep it somewhat on topic, please. Thank you.

And this is the problem.

A group who acted in a way that is without a doubt wrong in every single way has given this woman a free pass. Plenty of people in this topic already have shown this to be true. Any time someone makes a comment about Heplers opinions or beliefs on game development they are accused of trolling or bullying. 

So thanks to a group of children who couldn't act like adults, those of us who can give contrsuctive comments are no longer able to do so. Thats hardly fair.

There are numerous other places on the BSN where you can give this sort of feedback. However, if you focus it on the person as opposed to the work then, yes, it's not welcome.

Keep it specific to characters and arcs she's written, of course, and it's perfectly allowable. Like I said, though - keep the personal out of it.

[Ranicus56]

Esquin wrote...

Ranicus56 wrote...

I don't really know whats going on but bullying is just wrong. Best of luck to Jennifer and the rest of the Bioware team. <3

Of course bullying is wrong. But the reasons that inspired the bullying were real and genuine concerns.

People had concerns about her gameplay ideas and the systems she might try to push for in future. Things that would be, in many peoples opinions, a bad more for the gaming industry. The things she was suggesting would separate gameplay and story. Destroying the integration of the 2. 

Not to mention that many people just think she's a poor writer. 

I'm not condoning bullying. I'm just saying that to dismiss the reasons for peopels displeasure just because of the way a small group acted on it is short sighted. There are many of us who share the same displeasure at her beliefs and writing ability who are trying to convey those beliefs properly. We shouldn't be dismissed.

Then let the fire go out a bit before stating your opinion, or it might look like your adding to it.

[Realmzmaster]

Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

^He may have joined Twitter months after DA II dropped, but it still was attacked with hateful insults and there was indeed threats too. If anything that just shows the professionalism he has that I spoke about. Even months after DA II dropped people were STILL riding him and he never once lashed back negatively. The emotional control displayed by Laidlaw should be studied vigoriously by this Jennifer Hepler person.

Many people on this network came to Mr. Laidlaw's defense. I for one. I do not remember  someone contacting Mr. Laidlaw at his home and threating to harm him or his family. Also everyone is not the same. Nor do people respond in the same way. That is what makes us individuals. Ms. Hepler for many months (note I typed months also most going on a year, not days not hours, but months!) did exactly what Mr. Laidlaw did. Let me repeat that she put up with the abuse since the launch of DA2 like Mr. Laidlaw. Ms. Hepler has been very professional. It reach a point where she could not longer accept the abuse. The comment she made on Twitter was to a friend. She had just open the account and the abuse started over DA2.
She reach the breaking point when people started threating her family and got access to personal information and left threating messages on her home telephone against her and her family.

[Stanley Woo]

Esquin wrote...

Of course bullying is wrong. But the reasons that inspired the bullying were real and genuine concerns.

Not an excuse for people's bad behaviour, and not a topic of discussion for this thread.

People had concerns about her gameplay ideas and the systems she might try to push for in future. Things that would be, in many peoples opinions, a bad more for the gaming industry. The things she was suggesting would separate gameplay and story. Destroying the integration of the 2. 

Not an excuse for people's bad behaviour, and not a topic of discussion for this thread.

Not to mention that many people just think she's a poor writer. 

Not an excuse for people's bad behaviour, and not a topic of discussion for this thread. Are you seeign a pattern?

I'm not condoning bullying. I'm just saying that to dismiss the reasons for peopels displeasure just because of the way a small group acted on it is short sighted. There are many of us who share the same displeasure at her beliefs and writing ability who are trying to convey those beliefs properly. We shouldn't be dismissed.

None of the concerns brought up during this time have been dismissed. They have been and will continue to be discussed in our Dragon Age II forum. We have not shut down discussion of people's concerns, nor has anyone on this forum been muffled or silenced if they have legitimate concerns and present them in a mature, civil manner.

The only dismissal we have given is the linking of these concerns to excuse people's bad behaviour, which we have said time and again we are not going to accept in this discussion thread. So please, you can discuss your legitimate concerns wtih Dragon Age II or BioWare's "direction" or what have you, freely in our DA2 forums. Just don't lump the bullying in with such discussion, and don't do it in this thread. Thank you.

[Portia Cousland]

It is reprehensible that this has happened to Ms. Hepler, no one deserves to be treated in this manner regardless of the reasons. 

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not that it has anything to do with our support for Jennifer, but the "attacks" against Mike were largely confined to the Dragon Age II forums and were of the sort one normally finds within internet forums. There was a lot of hate, much swearing and calls for his firing, but actual death threats, if any, were few and far between. Because it was limited to the forum, we were able to control the comments (or those making them) to a certain degree. His personal life, as far as I know, was unaffected, and the situation resolved itself a few weeks after Dragon Age II's release.

Threats against Ms. Hepler and her family occurred outside of these forums and were a concerted effort by some to be intentionally harmful. People have invaded her privacy, and from what I understand, have been going on for months. There is nothing "professional" about being subjected to that sort of abuse and behaviour for any length of time. Those who sink so low as to threaten, abuse, or otherwise malign our developers are no real fans of ours and should not expect to be dealt with the same courteous, professional manner in which we deal with our actual fans (both whose who agree and those who respectfully disagree with us) here in the community.

Thanks for expressing so eloquently what I was feeling. 

[Silfren]

Esquin wrote...

Of course bullying is wrong. But the reasons that inspired the bullying were real and genuine concerns.

The only thing that inspired the bullying were those people's inclination to be cruel and to have no respect for another person's right to privacy...and the right to be free from abusive behavior.  No, really, it's true: the miscreants responsible didn't do this because of "real and genuine concerns," but because they wanted to be assh*les and decided that Hepler would be a good target.

Were it otherwise, then this thread would not exist because Bioware's detractors actually would have restricted their remarks to constructive criticism.

[Silfren]

Esquin wrote...

I'm not condoning bullying. I'm just saying that to dismiss the reasons for peopels displeasure just because of the way a small group acted on it is short sighted. There are many of us who share the same displeasure at her beliefs and writing ability who are trying to convey those beliefs properly. We shouldn't be dismissed.

I'm genuinely curious here.  Given that there are several threads dedicated to discussing the problems with Hepler's work, what basis do you have for claiming that constructive criticism of Hepler is being dismissed?  I've been on these forums since DA2 came out, and nowhere have I seen any Bioware staff shut down threads for being critical.  I've seen threads shut down when such threads turned into personal attacks, and I've seen threads shut down that never were anything but personal attacks despite the claims of the people participating in them.  And I'll quickly say that I think some Bioware mods are a little too quick to label a thread off-topic and either delete comments or lock a thread completely.  But I've never once seen actual constructive criticism get shut down by any Bioware staff. 

So, please, I'm seriously asking here--have you actually seen any non-personal criticisms of Hepler get shut down?  

[rafalima]

This is terrible. How can these people be so mean? She didn't deserve that, nobody did'nt.

[casadechrisso]

Silfren wrote...

So, please, I'm seriously asking here--have you actually seen any non-personal criticisms of Hepler get shut down?  

Even though you probably don't ask me, but: No.

I've complained a lot. I hated DA2 when it came out, I hated the Demo, I complained about multiple aspects of it, participated in threads filled with complaints ranging from "poorly written" to "this game sucks horribly". Complained about Origin etc. etc. Those threads existed, those threads remained open as long as they were civil. Threads getting personal, like the "Mike Laidlaw should be fired" ones were closed. That's it. Stay civil, don't attack people personally, don't namecall, and you can complain as long as you wish. My personal experience.

And that this thread isn't the place to complain about the writing of Ms. Hepler should be obvious. This is a thread showing support for her, personal support regarding the bullying, and her writing and opinions should be discussed in other threads. I don't get what's so hard to understand about that.