1876 réponses à ce sujet

[Shacky182]

It's truly sickening to read what people did to and said about this woman who was merely stating her oppinion. I for one did not see ANYTHING wrong with the things she had said, she suggested an OPTIONAL way to skip something in a game ... not forcing anyone to do anything, just giving them the option.

It's great to see BioWare helping out in these situations and I would personally like to extend my best wishes to this woman who clearly just wishes to do her best on the projects she is invovled in.

Many Thanks.

~Shack

[nijnij]

All my support to miss Hepler. I'm not sure what the hatred was all about as what little I read I found sickening enough that I decided not to read on. I don't understand. There's a cool team of devs regularly asking for concrete insight from the players around here. But some people would rather waste their energy looking for scapegoats and bashing them in the rudest ways than actually contribute anything constructive to the discussion.

[Nurot]

I want to offer my support for Jennifer Hepler as well. She is doing great work as a writer for Bioware and the idea she had about being able to skip past battles to get the story was a great idea, in my opinion. I personally would not use it for Dragon age or Mass effect, but there are some great action based games that I really suck at. And it is jarring to get stuck after 50 h of gameplay and not get to finish the story because you have the worst reflexes in history.

I also want to say that harassment on the internet or at someones home is not okay, ever! Same goes for telling an employee of a company to quit their job. Not okay! Please don't quit your job because of this Jennifer. A lot of people would be sad if that happened.

[wingman007]

The attacks on her are awful! Shes clearly very talented and you guys should keep her.

[Kwanzaabot]

Nurot wrote...

I want to offer my support for Jennifer Hepler as well. She is doing great work as a writer for Bioware and the idea she had about being able to skip past battles to get the story was a great idea, in my opinion. I personally would not use it for Dragon age or Mass effect, but there are some great action based games that I really suck at. And it is jarring to get stuck after 50 h of gameplay and not get to finish the story because you have the worst reflexes in history.

There's actually already a visual medium that is story-based and omits player control.

They're called movies.

If you want a fantasy game and you don't want to play it, go watch the Lord of the Rings movies. Hell, you could even read the books.

I personally think the abuse Jennifer Hepler has been subjected to is disgusting, but if Bioware took her idea and made a game that you watch instead of play, I'd never buy another Bioware product ever again.

[septembervirgin]

I think our dear Queen of Orzammar is indicating that she would like more flexibility in control over game tension. No, she's NOT talking about pacifying your favorite action game, but in a game she'd like there would be a smaller degree of demand from familial needs. I think also she'd like a form of autmatic autosave, autopausing (or turn-based), and other new family-sensitive controls. A calmer story should be possible: Bioware, once it is richer and has more employee could manage to come up with a few family-oriented Sim Fantasy style games.

Imagine a turn-based building game where YOU are the Ricardo Monteblan of the Cobblestone Canary. The mighty Canary hordes must serve your somewhat philosophical whim. While parody games do sell, even more serious-minded games with easy paced and gentle game-play do sell.

My guess is that she doesn't want her baby's first words to be "go for the eyes" as charming as that might seem.

I must say that I agree with her: while there is a definite place and role for games with tactical and strategic content, we need another Myst, another Civilization, more Sims, etc.

[DBZMagus]

JohnEpler wrote...

Bladefist_01 wrote...

Fenton wrote...

I'm glad Bioware is supporting thier employees. Having critisim is alright. Being an total jerk by using personal attacks and worse isn't alright. Those attacks that I've read was disgusting and uncalled for. Jennifier we have your support the fans of Bioware, your work and thier games we are supporting you.

You are completely right.

Were you one of the people originally attacking Jennifer? No? Then it's not directed at you.

If you were? Well, my sympathies are nonexistent. Either way, I've already addressed the whole position of 'WELL SHE DESERVED IT', and how it's not one that will continue in this thread.

You guys are making this way too complicated. This issue is actually quite simple. It's okay for Bioware employees like Flynn and Hepler to insult their customers. To call them morons and imply they are virgins for example. There's nothing unprofessional or childish about that. However, for the fans to insult them is grounds for a permanant ban and completely unacceptable. End of discussion. End of line.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

DBZMagus wrote...

You guys are making this way too complicated. This issue is actually quite simple. It's okay for Bioware employees like Flynn and Hepler to insult their customers. To call them morons and imply they are virgins for example. There's nothing unprofessional or childish about that. However, for the fans to insult them is grounds for a permanant ban and completely unacceptable. End of discussion. End of line.

The way people go on and on in this fashion you'd think BSN was the last bastion of internet communication and a ban is the worst possible thing.

[Wittand25]

DBZMagus wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Bladefist_01 wrote...

Fenton wrote...

I'm glad Bioware is supporting thier employees. Having critisim is alright. Being an total jerk by using personal attacks and worse isn't alright. Those attacks that I've read was disgusting and uncalled for. Jennifier we have your support the fans of Bioware, your work and thier games we are supporting you.

You are completely right.

Were you one of the people originally attacking Jennifer? No? Then it's not directed at you.

If you were? Well, my sympathies are nonexistent. Either way, I've already addressed the whole position of 'WELL SHE DESERVED IT', and how it's not one that will continue in this thread.

You guys are making this way too complicated. This issue is actually quite simple. It's okay for Bioware employees like Flynn and Hepler to insult their customers. To call them morons and imply they are virgins for example. There's nothing unprofessional or childish about that. However, for the fans to insult them is grounds for a permanant ban and completely unacceptable. End of discussion. End of line.

Calling a moron a moron is hardly insulting and more of an accurate description, even if the moron in question might disagree.

It pays to actually look at the whole timeline of the conflict, frankly I am amazed that she remained that calm considering everything that happened since I would probably have reacted far worse if ever exposed to such abuse.

[John Epler]

DBZMagus wrote...

You guys are making this way too complicated. This issue is actually quite simple. It's okay for Bioware employees like Flynn and Hepler to insult their customers. To call them morons and imply they are virgins for example. There's nothing unprofessional or childish about that. However, for the fans to insult them is grounds for a permanant ban and completely unacceptable. End of discussion. End of line.

It's rather simpler than that, actually. A fellow employee of BioWare was harassed and insulted for months on end and, when it 'blew up', reacted in an entirely human and understandable fashion. I'm sorry that this is causing problems for you, but this isn't a moral grey area. We support our employee, and if you think that responding emotionally after months and months of abuse is on the same level as being one of the participants in that same abuse, than we have vastly different ideas as to what constitutes acceptable interpersonal conduct.

[Grelthorian]

John Epler wrote...

DBZMagus wrote...

You guys are making this way too complicated. This issue is actually quite simple. It's okay for Bioware employees like Flynn and Hepler to insult their customers. To call them morons and imply they are virgins for example. There's nothing unprofessional or childish about that. However, for the fans to insult them is grounds for a permanant ban and completely unacceptable. End of discussion. End of line.

It's rather simpler than that, actually. A fellow employee of BioWare was harassed and insulted for months on end and, when it 'blew up', reacted in an entirely human and understandable fashion. I'm sorry that this is causing problems for you, but this isn't a moral grey area. We support our employee, and if you think that responding emotionally after months and months of abuse is on the same level as being one of the participants in that same abuse, than we have vastly different ideas as to what constitutes acceptable interpersonal conduct.

Why hold on to the moral high ground when you can give just as good as you get? While it may be entirely 'human',  its hardly a leadership quality and on your own damned forums and in your own damned community its important that BioWare employees hold themselves above the hateful trash looking to cause trouble. Any PR department worth its salt for any company in the history of ever will tell you exactly the same thing. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Grelthorian wrote...

Why hold on to the moral high ground when you can give just as good as you get? While it may be entirely 'human',  its hardly a leadership quality and on your own damned forums and in your own damned community its important that BioWare employees hold themselves above the hateful trash looking to cause trouble. Any PR department worth its salt for any company in the history of ever will tell you exactly the same thing. 

Since when did that name-calling stuff happen here in these forums?

This whole 'Bioware should hold themselves above...' crap is sheer idiocy when we're talking about Twitter, Facebook or other non-Bioware branded sites. What'll you propose we police next? Their private lines, in case they're saying something mean about you? Their backyards? Are they even allowed to honk their horns at people who cut them off in traffic, or is that only allowed if they don't have a Bioware bumper sticker on their car lest they upset someone who's bought one of their games?

[Firky]

What SoL said. (And my experience of Twitter is that it's like having a one-on-one conversation with someone, in a personal context.)

Also, no profession I've ever worked in has ever enforced "staying professional" - as in only speaking politely - when it comes to abuse. As well as being the subject of abuse undermining your ability to work, why would you really want to prevent someone making a human response?

(This was also when I was a High School teacher. If a kid had been swearing at a teacher over and over and the teacher finally swore back, so? That's a sign that the teacher needs support, not that suddenly they're unprofessional. The student is the one in the wrong. They've made a habit of verbal abuse. Disclaimer: If a teacher were constantly swearing etc, then that's different.)

I'm sure I said this earlier in the thread. But as a woman working in gaming (in a small, freelance capacity) I'm incredibly grateful that they donated to charity and made this statement. When I saw the GM of their studio fending off attacks with a few pointed swears (not in a prolongued abusive fashion, himself) I was profoundly relieved, because this demonstrated to me that the gravity of the bullying against Hepler was recognised.

[Grelthorian]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Grelthorian wrote...

Why hold on to the moral high ground when you can give just as good as you get? While it may be entirely 'human',  its hardly a leadership quality and on your own damned forums and in your own damned community its important that BioWare employees hold themselves above the hateful trash looking to cause trouble. Any PR department worth its salt for any company in the history of ever will tell you exactly the same thing. 

Since when did that name-calling stuff happen here in these forums?

This whole 'Bioware should hold themselves above...' crap is sheer idiocy when we're talking about Twitter, Facebook or other non-Bioware branded sites. What'll you propose we police next? Their private lines, in case they're saying something mean about you? Their backyards? Are they even allowed to honk their horns at people who cut them off in traffic, or is that only allowed if they don't have a Bioware bumper sticker on their car lest they upset someone who's bought one of their games?

Are their phone lines and backyards public mediums (media?)? No, and there's a difference. Release well though out and worded statements. Lock threads with non-confrontational explanations. Don't lash out. Its. Not. Hard.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Grelthorian wrote...

Are their phone lines and backyards public mediums (media?)? No, and there's a difference.

Please. If this whole situation were slightly altered into, eg, Hepler receiving an abusive phone call then she telling them they were a moron before hanging up, or the same thing only over her backyard fence, or at a party, or a football match, or a one-on-one email, do you honestly believe she wouldn't be called out on that in a more 'public' internet medium for the 'How dare she?!' brigade? Or would you simply choose to be on her side in those cases, because it's more morally palatable to you?

Just because it happened on the internet, in a place anyone can see, there's no obligation to be nice and to be a public, professional face for your company, no matter what your job may be or if the forum is unconnected to your coporate life.

If you believe that, then I take it you're giving the same lecture to the people who were attacking Hepler, yes? Those who are employed, at least?

Release well though out and worded statements. Lock threads with non-confrontational explanations. Don't lash out. Its. Not. Hard.

You know what else isn't hard? Giving opinions from an outsider's perspective.

Firky wrote...

If a kid had been swearing at a teacher over and over and the teacher finally swore back, so? That's a sign that the teacher needs support, not that suddenly they're unprofessional. The student is the one in the wrong. They've made a habit of verbal abuse. Disclaimer: If a teacher were constantly swearing etc, then that's different.

I admit I'll have more respect for someone who can endure a storm of abuse and not 'sink to that level', but I'll never fault someone who snaps after repeated attacks. Most people have a limit. A spring can't be stretched beyond its tensile strength and then be expected to retain its original shape. That strength differs from spring to spring, and from person to person.

As does the breaking point.

[Maria Caliban]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


I admit I'll have more respect for someone who can endure a storm of abuse and not 'sink to that level'...

Not I. I find the idea that the most noble reaction to abuse is to remain sweet and silent a hideously perverse one.

[Firky]

As a former teacher, I think there was definitely a middle ground, there, though.

If a teacher bit back, in kind, at every student who was verbally abusive (in my first school, anyway) no-one would have gotten anything done. Ever. Besides, kids are kids and, most of the time, there is no genuine compulsion to sink to their level. They're just mouthing off and need to write some lines or go sit with the head teacher for a bit or whatever. (Or, if they say it quietly, ignore them.)

But, at the same time, would you really want a school entirely staffed with total tough-nut teachers who never showed a human side? Occasionally biting back, in extreme circumstances, reminds students that adults are actually people. But there's no one threshold for when to bite back, which may be why the GM didn't say anything until it got in his face, and Hepler made a comment indicating she was upset by it. (In whatever way, who knows. That's her business.)

I knew a teacher who cried every afternoon for her first two weeks. Should she have found a new career? No, she just needed some executives to come in with the strong arm and help her get settled and the rest of us in the staffroom to talk to. She ended up fine, with support.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


I admit I'll have more respect for someone who can endure a storm of abuse and not 'sink to that level'...

Not I. I find the idea that the most noble reaction to abuse is to remain sweet and silent a hideously perverse one.

You misunderstand, or I need to elaborate...perhaps 'endure' was the wrong word to use, on my part. I never meant that one should always remain sweet and silent. One can challenge abuse, however, without becoming its accessory. That's the kind of attitude I find admirable; not being a doormat about it, nor becoming a party to it.

(I apologise if this comes across as lecturing. If it's a character flaw that I don't personally approve of ******-for-tat, then it's one I'll have to bear, I'm afraid. *wry* It doesn't mean I'm telling anyone off, only explaining a personal stance.)

@Firky - Stuff like that is awful. Just being through school as a student was enough to convince me I'd never ever want to be a teacher. Students are brutal.

[Firky]

Most of them grow up into really nice people. (In my experience.)

I guess it's a point of comparison, because being called various things, and on into verbal abuse, can kinda come with the territory.

(Edit: And, in my experience, teaching seems to deal with bullying better and have framed it really well, as to what is acceptable and what isn't. Of course, sending the internet to detention isn't an option.)

Modifié par Firky, 29 mars 2012 - 04:54 .

[esper]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


I admit I'll have more respect for someone who can endure a storm of abuse and not 'sink to that level'...

Not I. I find the idea that the most noble reaction to abuse is to remain sweet and silent a hideously perverse one.

You misunderstand, or I need to elaborate...perhaps 'endure' was the wrong word to use, on my part. I never meant that one should always remain sweet and silent. One can challenge abuse, however, without becoming its accessory. That's the kind of attitude I find admirable; not being a doormat about it, nor becoming a party to it.

(I apologise if this comes across as lecturing. If it's a character flaw that I don't personally approve of ******-for-tat, then it's one I'll have to bear, I'm afraid. *wry* It doesn't mean I'm telling anyone off, only explaining a personal stance.)

@Firky - Stuff like that is awful. Just being through school as a student was enough to convince me I'd never ever want to be a teacher. Students are brutal.

I'll tell you from personal  experience that often won't work and it'll still damage you greatly. I wished that I had given my bullies back in kind. Ignoring them don't make them go away. Trying to be polite don't make them stop. Going to the autorithes/ solves nothing and doesn't remove the damage they have done to your self esteem already. Telling them to stop is useless, they don't listen.   

Edit. There is nothing worse than telling a bully victim to take the highroad.

Modifié par esper, 29 mars 2012 - 05:23 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

esper wrote...

I'll tell you from personal  experience that often won't work and it'll still damage you greatly. I wished that I had given my bullies back in kind. Ignoring them don't make them go away. Trying to be polite don't make them stop. Going to the autorithes/ solves nothing and doesn't remove the damage they have done to your self esteem already. Telling them to stop is useless, they don't listen.

Don't worry, I have personal experiences of my own. I know the drill.

Edit. There is nothing worse than telling a bully victim to take the highroad.

Or any victim.

I know.

[esper]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

esper wrote...

I'll tell you from personal  experience that often won't work and it'll still damage you greatly. I wished that I had given my bullies back in kind. Ignoring them don't make them go away. Trying to be polite don't make them stop. Going to the autorithes/ solves nothing and doesn't remove the damage they have done to your self esteem already. Telling them to stop is useless, they don't listen.

Don't worry, I have personal experiences of my own. I know the drill.

Edit. There is nothing worse than telling a bully victim to take the highroad.

Or any victim.

I know.

Yeah, any victim actually. It is always so easy to say that that victims needs to take the highroad when you're not them.
I've come to believe that we lash out for a reason. I think it is a self-procting measurement to say to yourself that some invisible line has been stepped over and you need to change something.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

esper wrote...

Yeah, any victim actually. It is always so easy to say that that victims needs to take the highroad when you're not them.

This thread continues to prove that statement true, sadly.

I've come to believe that we lash out for a reason. I think it is a self-procting measurement to say to yourself that some invisible line has been stepped over and you need to change something.

I dunno. I've heard anecdotes from friends who've retaliated. Some are glad they did, since it's funny how punching your tormentor in the face can make them think twice before treating you that way again. Some are less fortunate with how things turn out, or they snap in extremely destructive ways.

I do believe that retaliating can sometimes lead to good things. Ideally, though, a victim would be offered support before it gets that far because the results of letting a person reach emotional critical mass can be so unpredictable, unhealthy, even deadly. :/

I'm not suggesting Hepler got to that point on the basis of a single snark (I sincerely hope not), but it was awesome to see one of her colleagues step in to support her like he did. Professionalism be damned, that was defending someone who was being unfairly attacked, damn it, at the risk of being made a target himself. So kudos to him, and I hope she's doing ok.

[esper]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

esper wrote...

Yeah, any victim actually. It is always so easy to say that that victims needs to take the highroad when you're not them.

This thread continues to prove that statement true, sadly.

I've come to believe that we lash out for a reason. I think it is a self-procting measurement to say to yourself that some invisible line has been stepped over and you need to change something.

I dunno. I've heard anecdotes from friends who've retaliated. Some are glad they did, since it's funny how punching your tormentor in the face can make them think twice before treating you that way again. Some are less fortunate with how things turn out, or they snap in extremely destructive ways.

I do believe that retaliating can sometimes lead to good things. Ideally, though, a victim would be offered support before it gets that far because the results of letting a person reach emotional critical mass can be so unpredictable, unhealthy, even deadly. :/

I'm not suggesting Hepler got to that point on the basis of a single snark (I sincerely hope not), but it was awesome to see one of her colleagues step in to support her like he did. Professionalism be damned, that was defending someone who was being unfairly attacked, damn it, at the risk of being made a target himself. So kudos to him, and I hope she's doing ok.

Well of course it depends on how you snap and I didn't necessarily mean to punch someone in the face  (depending on the size off you tormenter it could be dangerous). It would be even better if people stepped in an stopped the thing before it became critical, but sadly they doesn't or simply can't do anything. But I think that people reaches a point where they need to do something or they will get permenantly scarred.   

I am sorta amazed that she hadn't said worse than that and I have a huge praise for bioware for being so supportive, but it also saddens me that people here feel the need to discuss it.

[Little Princess Peach]

Jennifer seems to be a wonderful person I would be glad to donate and I hope those lunatics apologise to her