1790 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Marionetten wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

At the end of the day, EA can charge
whatever they like for whatever they want. It isn't a question of what
should and shouldn't be. Its harsh, but unfortunately reality.

They can because they get away with it. It's somewhat hilarious how you complain that boycotting Mass Effect 3 isn't going to change anything while promoting apathy.

Oh, here we go, listen to Anakin here bring up the 'IF YOU'RE NOT WITH ME, THEN YOU ARE MY ENEMY' card.

My point was that getting obsessed about what should or shouldn't be happening is meaningless. What matters is whether the players actually stick to the boycott they're threatening. Stuff like the BF3 thing are the exception, not the rule.

And kindly don't assume anyone who isn't screaming that Bioware are evil must be 'promoting apathy' or other such hyperbole.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 22 février 2012 - 07:00 .

[Zeebaas]

The problem is gamers who are willing to buy anything and allow this sort of stuff. I'm a student, I don't have alot of money to spend so I can't buy every game I want and definetly not all the DLC. But if consumers keep allowing these practices and publisher keep raising their prices and the amount of content they cut for DLC sales soon I won't even be able to afford half a game.

[Crackseed]

Thoth_Amon wrote...

Veggiesofmanycolors wrote...

All of you complaining about the price kindly shut up. This isn't some third rate developer who throws whatever turd into a box like Asura's Wrath and charges 60 bucks for it.
This is Bioware we're talking about and even if the full game cost over one hundred dollars that is still a steal.

The amount of entertainment from one Bioware game is equal to that of at least 10 lesser games.

They used to be top tier but now....they are third rate.  Third rate developers run into "dev realities" and can't implement what 2 man indie studios are able to do.  Third rate developers announce a new franchise as a planned trilogy and then make it up as they go.  Third rate developers take three games to get the shooting mechanics acceptable but can't get a proper running animation working or a proper FOV.

Oh please. The demands of AAA games now are so much more massive that studios spend years having to create games and often STILL can't finish everything by their launch window. 

You know, like how Diablo 3 is now 6 years in dev and still aways off from release - why? Because they still have issues that are taking time to stamp down. A company with basically unlimited funds. And when it launches? There will still be issues like balance, bugs and things that fans will scream about.

Third rate? No - Bioware is still first rate, but ironically the way we as customers have started to become more and more demanding about the quality and content of our games has placed even more pressure on the developers, who often have to answer to their publishers on how long they can keep games in dev time.

You reference indie games - that's great. I have plenty of great Indie games that I support, but if you ask me how long I play an Indie game vs a AAA title like ME? Not even comparable. Why? Because that budget and time, despite some of the drawbacks and issues, makes for a far more replayable or sustained experience.

[Cobra5]

rumbalumba wrote...

Cobra5 wrote...

rumbalumba wrote...



how about...

pay $60 for the full, complete experience just like what we have been doing for the past 30 years???

Because then the full, complete experience is smaller then what you are getting with ME3.

So you are picking option one: Don't make the extra content at all, charge a flat $60 for the game, and the cost cuts come from skiping development of the content in the first place.

what do you mean smaller? are you kidding me? so you're telling me, that if Bioware should make a game worth $60, that it should be a "smaller" experience? don't give me that crap. so you're telling me that developing one character, one mission, and a few lines would have cost Bioware so much money? remember, they're charging you $10 for that, going by ME2 the third game will probably sell 3 million units or so and that's roughly $30 million. let's say half of those players buy the DLC so that's $15 million. you meant to tell me it will cost Bioware $15 million for a character, a mission, and some lines?

extra content is something like an expansion pack that was developed to further the game experience AFTER the game is released, like Yuri's Revenge for Red Alert 2, like Catalycysm for Warcraft, like Vacation for The Sims, you know more maps, more characters, gameplay tweaks, new storyline, etc. those are what i call extra content.

a character and a mission is hardly "extra content". it is content developed alongside the game, cut off, and then slapped with a price tag 1/6th of the full game's price.

Yes.

You are looking at it as a cutoff point, which does not exist in terms of development money. You are also looking at it as the DLC money is paying just for the DLC, which is not the case. The prothean (etc) did not cost any more or less to develop then the rest of the game I'm sure.

See:

1. The price of developing a AAA game is going up, and up, because they are getting larger and larger.
a) Mass Effect 3 is larger then Mass Effect 2, etc
b)This is seen in the industry as a whole by games like Call of Duty and Battlefield, Uncharted, etc. Successive games include more content and the industry as a whole continues this trend.
c) "Larger" or "More content" does not necessarily mean "longer game". More polished or indepth content can take longer to develop, or having more content within the same spane of time (For example, successive Call of Duty games having more guns)

2. The overall consumer base has not increased in proportion to the raising costs
a) Year over year profits are down in almost every publisher
The only publishers continueing to turn a profit or to break even are ones adapting to the industry:

3. The publishers and developers must adpat to this industry in one of three ways:
-Stop increasing the cost of developing a AAA game, resulting in a smaller game content-wise over all (IE Witcher series, which run on smaller budgets)
-Raise the price of the game (IE $70 Call of Duty, Warcraft 3, Starcraft 2...)
-Increase the consumer base (IE Remaking Syndicate and XCom as FPSs)

Bioware went with "Raise the price of the game". You are arguing for "Stop increasing the cost", which would result in a smaller game.

Then as an aside point I would like to say instead of raising the price to $70, they gave the consumer the choice to stay at the old price point, which competitors (CoD, Starcraft) have not.

[XX55XX]

I watched most of TB's video and I agree with what he had to say on the matter.

Find some other way to milk the fans.

[wolfsite]

Thoth_Amon wrote...

wolfsite wrote...

This DLC was originally only available to the CE.  Thus it is optional content not needed for the whole experience.  They are just making it available to people who buy the SE version so they can experience it IF they want to.

And that's such a ****ty way of looking at things.  Then, I guess Bioware doesn't need all of my money?  I can still play the game but I can also pay for it IF I want to.  My experience will be the same and in fact will probably be a much better experience overall.

No that is a logical way to look at it.  It is supplemental content orignally made for the CE, if you wanted it you could get the CE version and if you didn't you can get the SE.  Your choice.

Now they have decided to make that portion of the CE available to those who only got the SE, this allows them the choice of picking up some the the content of the CE without having to purchase the full CE version.

It is still supplemental and not needed for the full plot/experience of ME3.  It is your choice if you want it or not and if you do not want it that is prefectly fine.

[hex23]

If you have no interest in playing "ME3" I'm not sure why you're here.

If you have interest in playing "ME3", but are boycotting it, you're shooting yourself in the foot. Trust me, no matter how "righteous" you think your cause is the game will still sell well. So basically you're keeping yourself from playing the game for no reason.

As far as the topic at hand, I don't care about DLC either way. If it interests me, I'll buy it. If it doesn't, I won't. Whether or not it was in the game, or should've been in the game, or whatever....who cares? You guys need to take some of this energy and indignation and channel it into more worthy causes than a video game boycott.

[TwwlX]

XX55XX wrote...

I watched most of TB's video and I agree with what he had to say on the matter.

Find some other way to milk the fans.

Don't worry. They will. This is EA after all.

[wired_noodle]

crackseed wrote...
But see, here's the fallacy with your point - it is an optional character. It doesn't matter that it is a Prothean. The mere fact that you can play the full game w/o needing him means....right. It's optional. No different then Shale or extra weapons, skins, etc. I understand that people are ticked because of the concept of a Prothean, a big lore character, being made into a DLC squaddie, but again as it's not required for you to play the game in it's entirety, it falls under the same label as all other DLCs of this nature.

Taking that further, a FPS shooter could say, only give you a pistol, and offer every other type of gun as optional DLC. Make the game easy enough to get through with a pistol and hey, a machine gun is "optional" so why are people getting angry about it?

I do get your point but "optional" is such a grey word, especially when it comes to narrative-based experiences like ME which rely on drawing in the player and getting them invested in the world and caring about the characters. You are right objectively but i feel like this move is intentionally screwing those people over who are most passionate about the game - bit of a dick move imo

[XX55XX]

TwwlX wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

I watched most of TB's video and I agree with what he had to say on the matter.

Find some other way to milk the fans.

Don't worry. They will. This is EA after all.

Well, the artbook and iOS applications aren't bad, because they aren't a truly necessary part of the experience and are for the hardcore fans only. But.. this? Story-based DLC? That is bad.

[Marionetten]

JaegerBane wrote...

Oh, here we go, listen to Anakin here bring up the 'IF YOU'RE NOT WITH ME, THEN YOU ARE MY ENEMY' card.

My point was that getting obsessed about what should or shouldn't be happening is meaningless. What matters is whether the players actually stick to the boycott they're threatening. Stuff like the BF3 thing are the exception, not the rule.

And kindly don't assume anyone who's screaming that Bioware are evil must be 'promoting apathy' or other such hyperbole.

Obsessed? You're the one tossing hyberbole all over the place. That said, change doesn't come from keeping your mouth shut and toeing the corporate line. You have to speak your mind and more importantly, as you say, committ. I believe that TB will committ. I know I will committ. Do I expect anyone else to committ? No, but it sure would be nice if gamers took a stance for once and told publishers that this just isn't acceptable. As consumers and fans it's our responsibility to safeguard this medium. 

[RiouHotaru]

Arcian wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Again, do we have any factual evidence, BESIDES the fact he's a Prothean, that ANYTHING he has to say is relevant to the plot, and not just flavor text like Zaeed and Kasumi.

Even his dialog in the leak is just flavor text, and that's a suspect source.

If you can provide FACTUAL evidence, I'll boycott the game along with the rest of you.

That's not the damn point. The point is that development funding and time was spent making him - funding and time that should reasonably have went into the product being sold.

It's like a baker making a 60 dollar cake and then cutting out a piece and offering it for an additional 10 dollar, meaning you have to spend 70 dollars for a cake that costs 60.

Does that seem like a fair practice to you?

Considering that's not how Day 1 DLC is made and there was an entire thread already where the process was explained and thus I know better?

Yes, Day 1 DLC -is- a fair practice.

[Crackseed]

wired_noodle wrote...

crackseed wrote...
But see, here's the fallacy with your point - it is an optional character. It doesn't matter that it is a Prothean. The mere fact that you can play the full game w/o needing him means....right. It's optional. No different then Shale or extra weapons, skins, etc. I understand that people are ticked because of the concept of a Prothean, a big lore character, being made into a DLC squaddie, but again as it's not required for you to play the game in it's entirety, it falls under the same label as all other DLCs of this nature.

Taking that further, a FPS shooter could say, only give you a pistol, and offer every other type of gun as optional DLC. Make the game easy enough to get through with a pistol and hey, a machine gun is "optional" so why are people getting angry about it?

I do get your point but "optional" is such a grey word, especially when it comes to narrative-based experiences like ME which rely on drawing in the player and getting them invested in the world and caring about the characters. You are right objectively but i feel like this move is intentionally screwing those people over who are most passionate about the game - bit of a dick move imo

Totally hear you  

As I said, while I personally don't have an issue with what they're doing, I do support the idea of having it free for any new ME3 purchase, regardless of edition. However, given that evidence is starting to indicate that he's in the game regardless of if you purchase this or not, it also undercuts some of the complaining going on since if that is true, everyone will interact with him. Merely that DLC purchasers will get a bit more mileage out of his character.

[dangermouseuk78]

Bad King wrote...

Arcian wrote...

I've decided to start a petition on the matter.

Please sign and pass it on to your friends and associates who love Mass Effect and want the content to be shared fairly to everyone.

I'll  sign the petition, even tho im getting the CE. In all the disscusions going on only a handfull of people have even questioned the fact that a Major race with in the Mass effect lore has been cut out to be made as DLC. Without question they already been made before release and should been included Day one.

I mean for Christs sake the the Protheans the people who came close against the reapers the single reason why most races took to the stars and whats Bioware do, They belittle them by making them just a Bit of DLC its completely Bizare.

[CannonO]

All this fighting hopefully tells BioWare to limit how much "bonus" content is set aside on day one next time. Just because they say it is extra, doesn't mean we can pretend that they didn't use ideas, resources, and budgets on this content and did not use it to enhance the day one package, but rather to further monetize it. Seriously BioWare, you used to put this stuff in your games if you finished it before launch.

[cachx]

RiouHotaru wrote...
only reason people believe he's "vital content" 

People believe that "generic bonus weapon" for multiplayer is "vital content". That's the extent of entitlement we're talking about here. Is not like they're stripping the ending out to sell later. Most likely, the game is designed around Prothy, so that the fact that he isn't there doesn't really matter that much.

File-size and leaks, seem to indicate this DLC is something of about Zaeed's depth.

[MasterMegatron]

This would be far more acceptable if it was made available with every new copy of the game. You know, so their customers are rewarded for giving EA money, and not just a select few.

CannonLars wrote...

All this fighting hopefully tells
BioWare to limit how much "bonus" content is set aside on day one next
time. Just because they say it is extra, doesn't mean we can pretend
that they didn't use ideas, resources, and budgets on this content and
did not use it to enhance the day one package, but rather to further
monetize it. Seriously BioWare, you used to put this stuff in your games
if you finished it before launch.

No, now. Make it avaliable to all new copies.

Modifié par MasterMegatron, 22 février 2012 - 07:07 .

[GDragonFly7]

This news made me sginifficantly less excited about ME3 - I'm still going to buy it, but I won't buy this DLC. It is my principle never to buy content that is obviously and deliberately cut from the game. I just bought the game and you're trying to drain my wallet again - I hardly had the time to put it back in my pocket - it's just bad business. Seriously, BioWare - why? I will remember this when I will be thinking about buing any other games from them. I don't hate BW yet, but then again, there was also a time when I didn't hate Activision...

[Kuei_Jin]

Calling out TB on not boycotting Deus Ex with their Tong DLC which was retailer preorder pacific, which you could not even get afterwards. A bit hypocritical.

[Dfenz]

 I'll just wait a while, and then pick it up used, since I have to pay extra for the day 1 DLC anyway. I'll play it on my 360 and I dont have Xbox Live Gold, so the online pass dont matter to me anyway.

[Thoth_Amon]

crackseed wrote...

Oh please. The demands of AAA games now are so much more massive that studios spend years having to create games and often STILL can't finish everything by their launch window. 

You know, like how Diablo 3 is now 6 years in dev and still aways off from release - why? Because they still have issues that are taking time to stamp down. A company with basically unlimited funds. And when it launches? There will still be issues like balance, bugs and things that fans will scream about.

Third rate? No - Bioware is still first rate, but ironically the way we as customers have started to become more and more demanding about the quality and content of our games has placed even more pressure on the developers, who often have to answer to their publishers on how long they can keep games in dev time.

You reference indie games - that's great. I have plenty of great Indie games that I support, but if you ask me how long I play an Indie game vs a AAA title like ME? Not even comparable. Why? Because that budget and time, despite some of the drawbacks and issues, makes for a far more replayable or sustained experience.

Oh no, those poor devs!  Here's an idea, stop passing the buck onto the consumer and screaming "oh it's so expensive to make games!"  Their business model is obviously ****ed if they can't make their money back.  Dial back the budgets, stop spending $30 million on marketing and full CGI TV ads, stop paying Microsoft $40,000 for an Xbox Live patch, start doing variable pricing with different games, start episodic games, go digital download, stop supporting Gamestop and all the other retailers that cannibalize new sales.  The industry needs a giant reset button and it needs it fast.

Blizzard also puts out incredibly polished games at launch.  They know people will wait because no one remembers if the game is late, they only remember if it was bad.

AAA games don't look like the ME3 demo.  That IS third tier.  That running animation, the water, the black crush, and those textures are third tier work.

[EmeraldJunkie]

For those of you who don't understand why people are angry, let me put it this way.
Imagine if George Lucas edited the Star Wars films, so that no one knew that Darth Vader was Luke Skywalkers father. Then said "Okay, will give you those few minutes of footage, that complete a movie, for a price." It's not just 'Bonus' footage, like deleted scenes, its an integral part of the Star Wars movies.
Now, with Mass Effect, the DLC is the same. We're not asking to make the DLC entirely free, just free to those who've purchased the game new, that's all.
(Thats kind of where my metaphore fails, because thats like "We'll give you the scene when you see it in the theatre, but not on the dvd")
Its a Prothean. They've been apart of the story longer than the Reapers have. It was by about half an hour, but still.

[wired_noodle]

crackseed wrote...
Totally hear you  

As I said, while I personally don't have an issue with what they're doing, I do support the idea of having it free for any new ME3 purchase, regardless of edition. However, given that evidence is starting to indicate that he's in the game regardless of if you purchase this or not, it also undercuts some of the complaining going on since if that is true, everyone will interact with him. Merely that DLC purchasers will get a bit more mileage out of his character.

Ahhh very good point there good sir, i gotta agree with you there 

I guess we'll find out more when Bioware opens their mouth. To be honest im more interested to hear how Bioware responds than what they'll actually do