404 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

nelly21 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

"Poor Hepler did not exactly help her case, publicly stating: "I just figure they're jealous that I get to have both a vagina AND a games industry job, and they can't get either." Unfortunately, that opened the doors for even more spiteful commentary, because everybody knows you can't defend yourself on the Internet -- especially if you mention that you have a vagina.

Everything seemed to come to a head with studio GM Aaryn Flynn getting involved. After one user called Hepler "the cancer that is killing BioWare," Flynn retorted by calling him a "****ing moron." So now BioWare is accused of treating customers disrespectfully, and the moron in question is going on a crusade and talking about his hurt feelings. Nevermind that he started the insulting tone of the conversation".

Not adding fuel to the fire at all are they. Seriously after all that "false banning" stuff in the wake of DA2 have they learned nothing.

They were angry and they retorted. Then in typical internet fashion, the ones who initiated the confrontation paint themselves as victims. Helper and Flynn displayed that they are human. The people who instigated this issue displayed that they are cowards.

You don't do that period. You are not a faceless member of the internet mob you are a representative of a company.
Do you think when someone shouts abuse at our PM he turns around and calls them a "****ing moron" ? No, because that would hurt him way more than them. Which is exactly what Bioware have done now. Now they are just as bad as the people who insulted Hepler in the first place. Only they can't hide behind annonimity.

[Demigod]

Just read the article, hard to believe people can behave like that. Its the first Ive heard of it as I dont have DA2 and dont follow those boards. Hiding behind the Internet. Its unbelievable really. I don't think Bioware fans are particularly bad but there are always trolls, and I should add not liking something and making a thread about it doesn't make someone a troll or a moaner if they have a valid point. The mods here do a good job of locking down trolls and off topic moaning for the most part.
The attacks on Jennfer Hepler were trolling of the worst sort and completely uncalled for. I dont care if she is a woman or a man there was no need for them. There is nothing wrong with a skip action option as their is nothing wrong with a skip dialogue option. Personally the three modes in masseffect, which i believe she had nothing to do with, are a great idea and let people chose what they wish. It will let my mother who is great at skyrim but not so much at mass effect /shooters enjoy the game. My mother doesn't want to skip the action but making it easier for her and concentrating more on the story is great. There is nothing wrong with giving people choice.

edit: Oh and I like this comunity, yes it has its trolls but there are great helpful people too. There were people nice enough to answer my questions about the start of the me3 demo and point me to other threads and the comics etc while I was very jet lagged and probably not making much sense.

Modifié par Demigod, 22 février 2012 - 04:49 .

[AllThatJazz]

BobSmith101 wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

"Poor Hepler did not exactly help her case, publicly stating: "I just figure they're jealous that I get to have both a vagina AND a games industry job, and they can't get either." Unfortunately, that opened the doors for even more spiteful commentary, because everybody knows you can't defend yourself on the Internet -- especially if you mention that you have a vagina.

Everything seemed to come to a head with studio GM Aaryn Flynn getting involved. After one user called Hepler "the cancer that is killing BioWare," Flynn retorted by calling him a "****ing moron." So now BioWare is accused of treating customers disrespectfully, and the moron in question is going on a crusade and talking about his hurt feelings. Nevermind that he started the insulting tone of the conversation".

Not adding fuel to the fire at all are they. Seriously after all that "false banning" stuff in the wake of DA2 have they learned nothing.

They were angry and they retorted. Then in typical internet fashion, the ones who initiated the confrontation paint themselves as victims. Helper and Flynn displayed that they are human. The people who instigated this issue displayed that they are cowards.

You don't do that period. You are not a faceless member of the internet mob you are a representative of a company.
Do you think when someone shouts abuse at our PM he turns around and calls them a "****ing moron" ? No, because that would hurt him way more than them. Which is exactly what Bioware have done now. Now they are just as bad as the people who insulted Hepler in the first place. Only they can't hide behind annonimity.

While I agree that ideally they shouldn't have given these nasty little trolls the satisfaction of a response, I disagree that it is as bad. An outraged and hurt spur of the moment defensive response is not on the same level as an orchestrated and premeditated bullying campaign.  

Also, doesn't the PM have bodyguards paid to protect him from a baying mob who seem to be out for blood? I imagine that were DC to be at the receiving end of this kind of personal harassment, then there might be arrests ...

Clearly what JH and other Bio employees need to do is put a disclaimer on their twitter profiles. 'All views expressed are my own, and do not reflect those of Bioware' or whatever. 

[Thoth_Amon]

Helper should have learned this back in grade school,

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. Every party involved is pathetic and this is a total non-issue blown up because of the target's gender, gaming "journalists" lazily doing "journalism" and patting themselves on the back for getting a scoop.

[AkiKishi]

[quote]AllThatJazz wrote...
They were angry and they retorted. Then in typical internet fashion, the ones who initiated the confrontation paint themselves as victims. Helper and Flynn displayed that they are human. The people who instigated this issue displayed that they are cowards.[/quote]

You don't do that period. You are not a faceless member of the internet mob you are a representative of a company.
Do you think when someone shouts abuse at our PM he turns around and calls them a "****ing moron" ? No, because that would hurt him way more than them. Which is exactly what Bioware have done now. Now they are just as bad as the people who insulted Hepler in the first place. Only they can't hide behind annonimity.

[/quote]

While I agree that ideally they shouldn't have given these nasty little trolls the satisfaction of a response, I disagree that it is as bad. An outraged and hurt spur of the moment defensive response is not on the same level as an orchestrated and premeditated bullying campaign.  

Also, doesn't the PM have bodyguards paid to protect him from a baying mob who seem to be out for blood? I imagine that were DC to be at the receiving end of this kind of personal harassment, then there might be arrests ...

Clearly what JH and other Bio employees need to do is put a disclaimer on their twitter profiles. 'All views expressed are my own, and do not reflect those of Bioware' or whatever. 

[/quote]

Call me "Dave" does indeed have body guards but he also takes part in online chats. I don't really see the relevence of body guards though, it's the internet she was no in phsysical danger at any point. By insulting them back ,she completely lost any moral highground she may have been able to claim.

[Il Divo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Call me "Dave" does indeed have body guards but he also takes part in online chats. I don't really see the relevence of body guards though, it's the internet she was no in phsysical danger at any point. By insulting them back ,she completely lost any moral highground she may have been able to claim.

Honestly, I'd still put her on a moral high ground. She didn't initiate this. Were it not for the trolls, this whole thing would not have happened.

[Farbautisonn]

Maybe the troll with the hurt feelings should shut the **** up. Really.

If you dish it out, you have to be prepared to eat it yourself. I dont throw the first stone but If someone does start throwing stones, and do not stop after I kindly ask them to, I dig out the Trebuchet.

[Costin_Razvan]

Honestly, I'd still put her on a moral high ground. She didn't initiate this. Were it not for the trolls, this whole thing would not have happened.

Personally I don't see a goddamn issue at someone getting pissed and throwing back insults. It so very damned easy to say that people should shut up and ignore the trolls, but ignoring can be hard when their comments make your blood boil.

So no I don't hold anything against Hepler or Flynn for replying, that said the real issue is the way Hepler replied. Her statement about everyone who dislikes her writing being homophobic and sexist pissed me off.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 février 2012 - 05:23 .

[AkiKishi]

Il Divo wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Call me "Dave" does indeed have body guards but he also takes part in online chats. I don't really see the relevence of body guards though, it's the internet she was no in phsysical danger at any point. By insulting them back ,she completely lost any moral highground she may have been able to claim.

Honestly, I'd still put her on a moral high ground. She didn't initiate this. Were it not for the trolls, this whole thing would not have happened.

She bascially told a group of gamers that they could not get laid. Now whether that is true or not it's a very stupid thing to say unless you are trying to esculate the situation.

[Il Divo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

She bascially told a group of gamers that they could not get laid. Now whether that is true or not it's a very stupid thing to say unless you are trying to esculate the situation.

She told a group of gamers they could not get laid, who had previously harassed her. I'm not saying her response was the best, given her position, but I'm more inclined to blame the initiator, rather than the person responding, assuming the response doesn't itself escalate the situation. In this case, Hepler didn't do anything worse than that which she had received first. She's not "on their level".

Modifié par Il Divo, 22 février 2012 - 05:26 .

[AllThatJazz]

[quote]BobSmith101 wrote...

[quote]AllThatJazz wrote...
They were angry and they retorted. Then in typical internet fashion, the ones who initiated the confrontation paint themselves as victims. Helper and Flynn displayed that they are human. The people who instigated this issue displayed that they are cowards.[/quote]

You don't do that period. You are not a faceless member of the internet mob you are a representative of a company.
Do you think when someone shouts abuse at our PM he turns around and calls them a "****ing moron" ? No, because that would hurt him way more than them. Which is exactly what Bioware have done now. Now they are just as bad as the people who insulted Hepler in the first place. Only they can't hide behind annonimity.

[/quote]

While I agree that ideally they shouldn't have given these nasty little trolls the satisfaction of a response, I disagree that it is as bad. An outraged and hurt spur of the moment defensive response is not on the same level as an orchestrated and premeditated bullying campaign.  

Also, doesn't the PM have bodyguards paid to protect him from a baying mob who seem to be out for blood? I imagine that were DC to be at the receiving end of this kind of personal harassment, then there might be arrests ...

Clearly what JH and other Bio employees need to do is put a disclaimer on their twitter profiles. 'All views expressed are my own, and do not reflect those of Bioware' or whatever. 

[/quote]

Call me "Dave" does indeed have body guards but he also takes part in online chats. I don't really see the relevence of body guards though, it's the internet she was no in phsysical danger at any point. By insulting them back ,she completely lost any moral highground she may have been able to claim.



[/quote]

Crumbs, didn't know about Dave and the online chats. I'm mulling over how I feel about personal insults being hurled his way :/

I know she wasn't in physical danger (and concede that my point wasn't terribly well-made there), but bullying is one of those areas where physical threat is only one element, and often not the most important one. And this was a fairly clear case of the mob spotting a vulnerable target and really going for it. When JH was lashing out in her own defence, 'moral highground' probably wasn't on her mind. 

[Duncaaaaaan]

I have to say, Hepler really isn't doing any good for the industry.

have you seen her graphic novel M.I.T.H?

It's terrible, and pretty offensive, not because it's homosexual, I am not homophobic, but because it is so unbelievably bad.

The writing quality in bioware games has really taken a tumble, I wonder if it's because of her.

It looks to me like the "insults" in that article were taken from a videogame board called "/v/", where there are all manners of people, there are no word filters, and everyone is anonymous, and the editor literally cherry picked the insults he thought were worse.

I don't want to come off as supporting the attacks on Hepler, of course I don't, but that article was laughably bad.

Modifié par Duncaaaaaan, 22 février 2012 - 05:32 .

[Rob_K1]

While I agree people should try and take no notice of insults hurled at them, either online or otherwise, the point still stands that people were idiots towards Hepler. And the point still stands that the insults etc. got to Hepler.

Correct me if I'm wrong as well, but that vagina comment and such only came after the insults had initially started.

While it may not be the same either, have others ever worked in retail and been treated like crap by a customer? I know, retail isn't the only type of work where you interact with customers, but there's more exposure. Personally, I've had a customer say to me 'this product is supposed to be in the offers' and when I've calmly tried to explain it to the customer that the item was placed in the wrong section (it must have fell in with the other frozen stuff or something), I had the customer literally knock the item out of my hand etc. demanding to speak to the manager.

I could have said something, but I didn't. However, I reckon I'd have been well within my rights to have said something and that is not the only incident I can think of.

As we are talking about gamers feeling they are entitled to have things the way they want them and all the rest of that crap as it falls in line with insulting a BioWare team member and the company as a whole, the favorite phrase 'the customer is always right' that companies like to tout shouldn't be taken quite so literally. There are obviously situations where the customer is not always right and it doesn't give you an excuse to be an idiot to the people you've bought a product from, just because you have. Just like being on the internet doesn't give you an excuse to be an idiot.

So no, people are not entitled to have things the way they want them. We can give suggestions and it is up to BioWare whether the suggestions/critiscisms are taken on board. We can also give criticism/suggestions while being constructive.

Modifié par Rob_K1, 22 février 2012 - 05:34 .

[AllThatJazz]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

I have to say, Hepler really isn't doing any good for the industry.

have you seen her graphic novel M.I.T.H?

It's terrible, and pretty offensive, not because it's homosexual, I am not homophobic, but because it is so unbelievably bad.

The writing quality in bioware games has really taken a tumble, I wonder if it's because of her.

Hmmm, well, which Bio games would you consider to be examples of excellence in video game writing?

At least this (how good a writer is at writing) is the right argument, though. And the one that 4chan and codexers should probably have been having on twitter rather than making personal comments.

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 22 février 2012 - 05:45 .

[JaegerBane]

Its an interesting article, but I don't think it was really saying anything new - I can bet that every single level-headed gamer on this forum has had their fair share of encounters with total freaks who think this kind of stuff is acceptable.

A shame to hear it, really, particularly considering she didn't even say anything bad. I think whoever came up with the 'awesome button' remark deserved a gentle bit of ribbing, but seriously, this kind of bile speaks volumes about the people coming up with it.

[Giubba]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Call me "Dave" does indeed have body guards but he also takes part in online chats. I don't really see the relevence of body guards though, it's the internet she was no in phsysical danger at any point. By insulting them back ,she completely lost any moral highground she may have been able to claim.

Honestly, I'd still put her on a moral high ground. She didn't initiate this. Were it not for the trolls, this whole thing would not have happened.

She bascially told a group of gamers that they could not get laid. Now whether that is true or not it's a very stupid thing to say unless you are trying to esculate the situation.

Pathetic trying to equalize Bioware response to the deliberate and countless number of insult those man and woman have taken on this board since DA2 hit the stores.
I'm honestly surprised that they didn't send the entire community to **** off month ago because this is what BSN comunity deserved and still prove every day to deserve.

[StephanieBengal]

Internet warriors ain't **** anyways.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

OdanUrr wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

TullyMcNasty wrote...

Bioware has the worst fans. Easily.

There is always a worse fanbase out there. Bioware's probably ranks pretty high up there though.

Nah, I have to agree, the Bioware fanbase is worse than Star Wars and Fallout.  

"There's always a bigger fish.":wizard:

Trust me extreme insane Transfans (Transformers fans are even worse. I've read about death threats against TV show writers and IIRC Bay got a few death threats over the designs of Optimus Prime and Megatron were leaked for the first movie he made.

[FKA_Servo]

Hepler and Flynn were right and justified in their twitter response.

Personally, I think the mods here should be a lot freer to respond to posters as the situation warrants. The BSN has a lot of cool people, but it has a lot of idiots too. For every cool cynic who hasn't liked any game since Baldur's Gate, there are two entitled, reactionary misogynists and three dedicated trolls. If someone is acting like an idiot, the mods should be able to tell them, in no uncertain terms, why they are an idiot and why they are wrong.

The people attacking Jennifer? They deserve condescension and they absolutely deserve contempt. Don't sugar coat it, treat them like the hatemongers they are. If that extends to the Dr.s telling them to **** off on twitter, good on them.

[December Man]

No matter what Hepler said in the interview, the insults with which she was attacked were just disgusting. Stay classy internet.

[UBER GEEKZILLA]

its funny people always complain that biowares new games have TOO MUCH ACTION...and now they are pissed that someone said they should allow you to skip for more dialouge.....just goes to show that this community has really gone in the gutter

[AkiKishi]

Giubba1985 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Call me "Dave" does indeed have body guards but he also takes part in online chats. I don't really see the relevence of body guards though, it's the internet she was no in phsysical danger at any point. By insulting them back ,she completely lost any moral highground she may have been able to claim.

Honestly, I'd still put her on a moral high ground. She didn't initiate this. Were it not for the trolls, this whole thing would not have happened.

She bascially told a group of gamers that they could not get laid. Now whether that is true or not it's a very stupid thing to say unless you are trying to esculate the situation.

Pathetic trying to equalize Bioware response to the deliberate and countless number of insult those man and woman have taken on this board since DA2 hit the stores.
I'm honestly surprised that they didn't send the entire community to **** off month ago because this is what BSN comunity deserved and still prove every day to deserve.

What I'm saying is when you are wearing your "official hat" you don't act like the people who are insulting you. No one forces you to sit in front of a computer after all she could have walked away but she chose to try to retaliate and just ended up making things worse. Now they have given those internet trolls the amunition to crusade because they sunk to thier level. Understandable ? Sure. But not something a company rep. should do.

[Jeepaz]

i think mass effect is a pretty cool guy. Eh kills aleins and doesnt afraid of anything.

[JosephCurwen]

People really need to stop thinking of gamespot as if it were some kind of honest broker, not completely controlled by games publishers.

[littlezack]

JosephCurwen wrote...

People really need to stop thinking of gamespot as if it were some kind of honest broker, not completely controlled by games publishers.

Even if that's true - which I'm not aware of, but whatever - that doesn't nescessarily make their point wrong.