The flame war has spread to Gamespot, and I commented appropriately there. I don't want to bring that here. Sufficient to say, criticize a game or even BioWare's policies all you want, I do sometimes, mostly on EA. Attacking a person does nobody any good.
I use this opportunity to voice my support for Jennifer Hepler. Everything else aside, a true fan would never seek to hurt anyone from BioWare. Besides, her idea has seen a form of implementation in ME3, and I don't see any fuss over it. Speaking of which, I should go check them out. It didn't seem necessary until that Gamespot article.
Gamespot article discussing fan entitlement
Débuté par
aj2070
, févr. 22 2012 01:48
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#177
Posté 22 février 2012 - 04:25
Dragoonlordz
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People need to remember there is a difference between feedback and entitlement. Some people feel the latter is part of the former but I think there is a line you cross to reach the other side which should be understood.
Also worth noting (imho) if remove game play from the game what your left with is a movie. Now this does not mean have to use combat in a game as there are other methods could use but the game play and interaction has to exist, you cannot skip it all for story because that removes the "game" part which is the sole part that makes it what it is.
I think Bioware defending her and support she has is right, the people who attacked her crossed that line from feedback to self-entitled and by a long way. As always I think the internet is full of very nasty people and cowards who would not have nerve to say something to someone's face so say it from a thousand miles away for the most part.
Also worth noting (imho) if remove game play from the game what your left with is a movie. Now this does not mean have to use combat in a game as there are other methods could use but the game play and interaction has to exist, you cannot skip it all for story because that removes the "game" part which is the sole part that makes it what it is.
I think Bioware defending her and support she has is right, the people who attacked her crossed that line from feedback to self-entitled and by a long way. As always I think the internet is full of very nasty people and cowards who would not have nerve to say something to someone's face so say it from a thousand miles away for the most part.
Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 22 février 2012 - 04:26 .
#178
Posté 22 février 2012 - 04:31
AkiKishi
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Unfallen_Satan wrote...
The flame war has spread to Gamespot, and I commented appropriately there. I don't want to bring that here. Sufficient to say, criticize a game or even BioWare's policies all you want, I do sometimes, mostly on EA. Attacking a person does nobody any good.
I use this opportunity to voice my support for Jennifer Hepler. Everything else aside, a true fan would never seek to hurt anyone from BioWare. Besides, her idea has seen a form of implementation in ME3, and I don't see any fuss over it. Speaking of which, I should go check them out. It didn't seem necessary until that Gamespot article.
Well I would say a decent human being would never seek to hurt anyone. Of course if you are hurt by the fallout of a game , thats very different to being attacked personally.
If a developer feels hurt because I say their contribution to a game sucked. That's fair in my view. It's not fair however to hurt them on a personal level.
This "true fan" stuff is part of the problem. These are the people who defend the game no matter what even when its objectively riddled with bugs incomplete and just bad. Giving developers a free pass to half ass it is in no ones interest.
#179
Posté 22 février 2012 - 04:38
The_Real_Lee
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Honestly, I wouldn't mind having the option to skip combat. I have never played any Bioware game for the gameplay, and while some have better gameplay than others, I would have enjoyed skipping a few of the waves in DA2. Would have made my 7 playthroughs faster, same applies to ME1 and it's... I lost count. There's like, 50 on my Xbox.
also, this topic is off topic, but I don't think it will be closed soon, as long as we keep insulting the people who insulted one of their own.
So, f*** those racist, anti-semetic pricks.
(I feel dirty after typing that last sentence, how do the trolls do it?)
also, this topic is off topic, but I don't think it will be closed soon, as long as we keep insulting the people who insulted one of their own.
So, f*** those racist, anti-semetic pricks.
(I feel dirty after typing that last sentence, how do the trolls do it?)
#180
Posté 22 février 2012 - 04:43
AngryKrogan777
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I still don't see why she continued to check her twitter, and pick up the phone calls she was apparently getting. But yeah, people on the internet suck.
#181
Posté 22 février 2012 - 05:01
CerberusSoldier
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This is inexcusable and disgraceful I saw this happen with Jade Raymond from Ubisoft a few years ago at E3 . The people who did this are low life scum and crap . Fans are not gods in video games and anyone that think they are is wrong .
#182
Posté 22 février 2012 - 05:05
A SILENT EMU
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It is honestly just sad and funny how serious people take it on both ends. The fans who actually get upset enough to attack her and the people who take empty threats on the internet such as calling here a cannibal or jew serious.
#183
Posté 22 février 2012 - 05:05
ColloquialAnachron
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I'd like to weigh in on this because I have some somewhat conflicting opinions.
I think in some cases, personal attacks of a certain kind within a certain limit are to be expected and often warranted for the public figures of public companies.
Hypothetical: Let's say I was one of those people who has followed Bioware since I don't know...Shattered Steel or Baldur's Gate. Now let's say I'm very disgruntled with how things have gone with Bioware games since ME1 (as in the Bioware-EA era). I think if I wanted to call out Muzyka, Zeschuk, or Hudson, and call them idiots for allowing a once focused and brilliant company to put out poorly designed, implemented, and watered down "larger appealing" games, that would be permissible. I am of the opinion that if I called their judgments, actions, and intellectual processes into question, that's perfectly permissible criticism as it's all arbitrary anyway. (Since I'm sure many people would disagree with the initial criticism to begin with).
That being said, at no point would I be within my "rights" as a game-buying fan to sexually harrass, attack the race/creed/religion of any of those men. I also don't think that after placing my admittedly singular opinion in a public forum, be it twitter, facebook, BSN etc., I have any place in continually rehashing my complaints unless someone in Bioware responds to me specifically.
My biggest problem with idiotic-sexist-racists isn't that they're wrong. If I got upset with people for being stupid or wrong I'd spend my life angry at most of the world. My problem is the cowardly laziness. Rather than form a cogent argument or criticism about Hepler's OLD musing, these people have attacked her based their own lack of intelligence. "Hey you're not the same as me! So you're a *%&*(*&$ 8&$*$$!@&$ ^&^$@&#!!!" If someone has a stupid idea, it's a stupid idea. If they have nothing but stupid ideas, they are stupid. If that person is white, black, asian, aboriginal, african, arab etc. then they are still just stupid. They are not a stupid (insert race here), those things are not related by necessity. It really bothers me that the laziest people are often the noisiest, and I'm not just talking about the sound of laboured breathing brought on by a sedentary high-calorie lifestyle. I find it absolutely stunning that ANYONE who has played any of the Mass Effect games can miss the theme that idiocy knows no bounds of sex, race, religion, or species.
Except maybe Turian females, they might be universally brilliant, I don't know I've never seen one....
I think in some cases, personal attacks of a certain kind within a certain limit are to be expected and often warranted for the public figures of public companies.
Hypothetical: Let's say I was one of those people who has followed Bioware since I don't know...Shattered Steel or Baldur's Gate. Now let's say I'm very disgruntled with how things have gone with Bioware games since ME1 (as in the Bioware-EA era). I think if I wanted to call out Muzyka, Zeschuk, or Hudson, and call them idiots for allowing a once focused and brilliant company to put out poorly designed, implemented, and watered down "larger appealing" games, that would be permissible. I am of the opinion that if I called their judgments, actions, and intellectual processes into question, that's perfectly permissible criticism as it's all arbitrary anyway. (Since I'm sure many people would disagree with the initial criticism to begin with).
That being said, at no point would I be within my "rights" as a game-buying fan to sexually harrass, attack the race/creed/religion of any of those men. I also don't think that after placing my admittedly singular opinion in a public forum, be it twitter, facebook, BSN etc., I have any place in continually rehashing my complaints unless someone in Bioware responds to me specifically.
My biggest problem with idiotic-sexist-racists isn't that they're wrong. If I got upset with people for being stupid or wrong I'd spend my life angry at most of the world. My problem is the cowardly laziness. Rather than form a cogent argument or criticism about Hepler's OLD musing, these people have attacked her based their own lack of intelligence. "Hey you're not the same as me! So you're a *%&*(*&$ 8&$*$$!@&$ ^&^$@&#!!!" If someone has a stupid idea, it's a stupid idea. If they have nothing but stupid ideas, they are stupid. If that person is white, black, asian, aboriginal, african, arab etc. then they are still just stupid. They are not a stupid (insert race here), those things are not related by necessity. It really bothers me that the laziest people are often the noisiest, and I'm not just talking about the sound of laboured breathing brought on by a sedentary high-calorie lifestyle. I find it absolutely stunning that ANYONE who has played any of the Mass Effect games can miss the theme that idiocy knows no bounds of sex, race, religion, or species.
Except maybe Turian females, they might be universally brilliant, I don't know I've never seen one....
#184
Posté 22 février 2012 - 05:07
CannonO
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Fans and business strategy heavily altered the vision of Mass Effect between ME1 and ME2. There are a lot of changes that mean I will never love ME2 or ME3 in the same deep way as I loved ME1, regardless of how well-produced they are or how much I like what is offered.
#185
Posté 22 février 2012 - 05:24
2484Stryker
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Just read a bit about the twitter attack on Jennifer Hepler. This is truly embarrassing.
#186
Posté 22 février 2012 - 05:25
100k
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Didn't Gamespot fire some guy named Jeff for saying that Kane and Lynch was a terrible game?
LOL!
LOL!
#187
Posté 22 février 2012 - 05:36
Spectre 007
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This is sad, I feel bad for this woman, no one deserves to be verbally attacked in that manner, especially over a piece of entertainment. I wouldn't blame Bioware if they decided to shut down the forums, heck as someone who's been coming on these things since ME was released BSN has gone from a place where I can share my excitement with other fans to a total buzz kill. Its one negative thread after the other, its hard to maintain your excitement for a game when every topic is, "Bioware/EA is ruining ME because of x, y, & z."
The people who attack others in this manner are cowards & sad human beings, they probably don't have much of a life except from sitting in front of a screen all day.
The people who attack others in this manner are cowards & sad human beings, they probably don't have much of a life except from sitting in front of a screen all day.
#188
Posté 22 février 2012 - 05:49
Gatt9
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100k wrote...
Didn't Gamespot fire some guy named Jeff for saying that Kane and Lynch was a terrible game?
LOL!
Actually, they fired him for not giving it a favorable enough review. Well, allegedly fired him for it.
#189
Posté 22 février 2012 - 06:28
CannonO
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Gatt9 wrote...
100k wrote...
Didn't Gamespot fire some guy named Jeff for saying that Kane and Lynch was a terrible game?
LOL!
Actually, they fired him for not giving it a favorable enough review. Well, allegedly fired him for it.
Yeah, he didn't trash it. The rumor was, Kane and Lynch ads were currently the largest ad sponser on Gamespot at the period of time when the review came out. Once the Kane and Lynch marketers found out the review was fairly average, rather than pretty positive, they expressed to Gamespot that it just would mess up the advertising so they would be forced to pull it from the site. Considering that it would mean a big loss for Gamespot, they ended up taking action by firing the inconsiderate writer to protect themselves from the reputation damage in the ad world.
But no one is sure.
#190
Posté 22 février 2012 - 06:28
royceclemens
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Two years ago I paid sixty bucks for Alpha Protocol. I was promised an "Espionage RPG." What I got was an ugly, glitchy mess that required specific builds to get to the end of the game, had poor voice acting, flat characters and was only nine hours long.
Upon my second playthrough and first completion (I poured my points into stealth, martial arts and shotguns the first time through and had to start over again) I thought to myself "Self, I don't think I'll be buying anymore Obsidian games."
And I didn't.
That's how simple it was. I didn't have to harass Chris Avellone, I didn't have to contact Feargus Urquhart (sp?) and tell him his mother had intimate congress with a farm animal, I just... didn't buy Dungeon Siege III. I will not be buying the South Park game, nor will I be buying whatever their kickstarter thing is. I am voting with my wallet and shall continue to do so.
I'm all for the right to criticize. In spite of the presence of the so-called "Biodrones," that's what the BSN is here for. They don't know what to fix if we don't let them know. I'm not even against hating Dragon Age II. I didn't, but I understand that there were things in that game that broke the camel's back for some people, even if they didn't for me.
But this... is just awful. It's bullying and scapegoating for pathetically low stakes. Because that's what games are. They're the thing you do when you're not out and about trying to pay your light bill.
And the sick thing about it is, these people who harassed Hepler? They'll keep buying BioWare games. Just watch. They'll pay sixty bucks a pop because they think it gives them the right to make someone else's life a living hell over the internet. They love hurting another person more than they could possibly love any video game.
Upon my second playthrough and first completion (I poured my points into stealth, martial arts and shotguns the first time through and had to start over again) I thought to myself "Self, I don't think I'll be buying anymore Obsidian games."
And I didn't.
That's how simple it was. I didn't have to harass Chris Avellone, I didn't have to contact Feargus Urquhart (sp?) and tell him his mother had intimate congress with a farm animal, I just... didn't buy Dungeon Siege III. I will not be buying the South Park game, nor will I be buying whatever their kickstarter thing is. I am voting with my wallet and shall continue to do so.
I'm all for the right to criticize. In spite of the presence of the so-called "Biodrones," that's what the BSN is here for. They don't know what to fix if we don't let them know. I'm not even against hating Dragon Age II. I didn't, but I understand that there were things in that game that broke the camel's back for some people, even if they didn't for me.
But this... is just awful. It's bullying and scapegoating for pathetically low stakes. Because that's what games are. They're the thing you do when you're not out and about trying to pay your light bill.
And the sick thing about it is, these people who harassed Hepler? They'll keep buying BioWare games. Just watch. They'll pay sixty bucks a pop because they think it gives them the right to make someone else's life a living hell over the internet. They love hurting another person more than they could possibly love any video game.
Modifié par royceclemens, 22 février 2012 - 06:37 .
#191
Posté 22 février 2012 - 06:31
Gibb_Shepard
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I agree with Hepler. Skipping combat in DA2 would've been a god send.
Anyway, don't agree with the article, but do agree that the whole Hepler thing was disgusting.
Anyway, don't agree with the article, but do agree that the whole Hepler thing was disgusting.
#192
Posté 22 février 2012 - 06:41
Kaiser Arian XVII
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Well, 2 disappointing games before ME3, makes every realist gamer, pessimist. But I'm moderately pessimist by default.
I apologize if I disrespected Bioware Employee. In off-topics I became angry about 'not liking the games' part, but didn't read the insults. So I approved of the unread insults.
I apologize if I disrespected Bioware Employee. In off-topics I became angry about 'not liking the games' part, but didn't read the insults. So I approved of the unread insults.
#193
Posté 22 février 2012 - 06:49
ThatDancingTurian
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Funny, I did the same exact thing after KotOR II.royceclemens wrote...
I thought to myself "Self, I don't think I'll be buying anymore Obsidian games."
And I didn't.
#194
Posté 22 février 2012 - 06:53
GuardianAngel470
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Abirn wrote...
I love how having expectations is now considered to be "entitlement mentality" How sad is that, were being derided for having basic expectations on things were paying 60+ dollars for.
You can have expectations and then you can have demands.
The former is perfectly reasonable. The latter is an example of an entitlement mentality.
#195
Posté 22 février 2012 - 06:54
Cody211282
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Holy ****........Who in their ****ing right mind would do that?
#196
Posté 22 février 2012 - 06:54
CannonO
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Aris Ravenstar wrote...
Funny, I did the same exact thing after KotOR II.royceclemens wrote...
I thought to myself "Self, I don't think I'll be buying anymore Obsidian games."
And I didn't.
I actually think Obsidian is great at updating franchises. I prefer the writing and upgrades of KotOR II and Fallout: New Vegas to their predecessors from other studios. Fallout 3 was a better theme, for me, but New Vegas felt more passionate about the atmosphere and characters.
#197
Posté 22 février 2012 - 06:57
Eterna
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I agree with them, Bioware fans are some of the harshest and rudest people on the internet. Of course not every Bioware fan is awful, but the bad apples are really rotten. When ME3 releases I plan to take a long break from the forums because no matter how great the game is it will still be a **** storm.
#198
Posté 22 février 2012 - 07:00
AlanC9
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BobSmith101 wrote...
This "true fan" stuff is part of the problem. These are the people who defend the game no matter what even when its objectively riddled with bugs incomplete and just bad. Giving developers a free pass to half ass it is in no ones interest.
When do you actually see discussions like that? When something's objectively "just bad" we don't end up talking about it.
#199
Posté 22 février 2012 - 07:01
N00blet666
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This^Eterna5 wrote...
I agree with them, Bioware fans are some of the harshest and rudest people on the internet. Of course not every Bioware fan is awful, but the bad apples are really rotten. When ME3 releases I plan to take a long break from the forums because no matter how great the game is it will still be a **** storm.
#200
Posté 22 février 2012 - 07:02
DaringMoosejaw
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android654 wrote...
DaringMoosejaw wrote...
Hepler showed her throat to gain some sympathy and this is what happens. The people attacking her may be douchebags, but she's handled it poorly.
And you're a douche for suggesting that someone is deliberatly being advantageous about being mistreated
Shows what your opinion is worth if all you've got to throw around are insults. She poked the hornets' nest with that snarky little comment of hers by basically calling her attackers a bunch of nerds, that helped nothing.
