619 réponses à ce sujet

[Spanky Magoo]

DinoSteve wrote...


I'd agree but without limits you end up with weapons that can destroy an entire world, so intelligence without limits is always a bad thing

Technology/Knowledge isnt inherently bad or good. Take harnessing nuclear energy to power cities or to destroy cities. People whos morals who dont align with an others morals may decide to destroy opposing views, Intelligent people would take opposing views into consideration and build consensus.
lol, now I sound like Legion.

[sorentoft]

greatgeek wrote...

Humanity doesn't have the right to deny the other races of political, economic, or cultural self-determination.

Yes we do. And we do it constantly.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dasher1010 wrote...

Cerberus is an organization filled with anti-alien extremiests. The fact that they refer to themselves as "pro-human" instead of anti-alien and specifically target the Quarians who are intentionally modeled to be Jews in space rams home that they're futuristic Neo-****s. They're now working for the reapers in an attempt to get them to destroy everyone else besides humans. What is seriously the reason why people on here are still Cerberus fanboys?

Specificly targeting the quarians? Since when.
And there are extremists in Cerberus, but you can find extremist pretty much anywhere.

As how can one support Cerberus - simple. They get the job done. They are fighting the reapers. I want to defeat the reapers. Hence, why I give them my support.

Even if they were real neo-natzi's, but in space, led by Hitler, I'd STILL give them my support if they were fighting the reapers. I want everyone fighting the repaers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

To save the base to study and research it to finally find the weaknesses of the reapers and make better weapons ... Rational

Unless the enemies plan is for you to base all of your technology upon theirs because they are able to manipluate it in ways you may not understand in which case such research could become actively detrimental.

Which refers to dependancy on mass relays... AND NOTHING ELSE.
So no, studying hte ebst of hteir tech - the tech tehy want to keep away from us - is not the enemy plan.

[Virginian]

Just because your rationality & morality do not jive with Cerberus does not mean that a person is irrational or immoral for supporting Cerberus.

Besides it is only natural to support your own species over that of another.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

In real life I would probably support their anti-alien agenda as it is the only sensible and moral thing to do.

Is it? Surely that's heavily dependant. If we're talking about ravenous xenomorphs who to eat need human brains to survive, you know, fair enough, can't argue with the anti alien sentiment, but what if they're just like....people? From space?

People are bastards. So that would make them space bastards.
Politics is dirty buisness.
Individuals are nice, governments aren't.
If you don't take care of your own, no one else is going to do it for you.
Hence why being pro-human is rational. The universe is not a happy-sunshine-friendship place.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Yes, a small organization mostly consisting of scientists totally would make their own Reaper despite it taking the Collector army almost three years of uninterrupted kidnapping without retaliation to build the upper torso of a reaper larva.

Dave, you should now by now that msot Cerberus haters do not respond to reason.
Sheap idiotic paragon reply is the bible for them.

Creating a reaper...oh, there is no end to the stupidity of that idea.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GodWood wrote...

Throwing away a base full of Reaper information when you have absolutely no knowledge of how you are going to beat them (and the only reason why you've gotten this far is because you have studied Reaper tech (see IFF, EDI, Thanic cannon etc)), on the grounds that "it indoctrinates people" despite their being no evidence that the base itself indoctrinates people is ****ing insane.

This. A thousand times this.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

My point is that no-one is going to pull a fast one on the reapers.

Oh really? The Protheans pulled a fast one on 'em.

At the end of the day Reapers are just machines and machines are easily controlled with the right tools.

Problem is we don't have the right tools...and TIM will never be the right person to wield them.

And who will be the right person? Who decides that?
And don't say Shepard.

[Lotion Soronarr]

RiouHotaru wrote...
I'll all for being open-minded.

But first TIM lies about Horizon, and is generally vague and misleading about the reasons for going there.

*** AND HIS PLAN WORKS PERFECTLY.

He pulls the SAME stunt on the Collector Ship.  He sends me into a trap with only his confidence I'll get out.

*** He also gives you EDI. AND HIS PLAN WORKS PERFECTLY.

Then he asks me to, after all the crap he pulls and his general lack of politeness or respect, to hand over potentially dangerous and unknown technologies of an enemy who is well known for having their tech mind-screw you.

*** AND HE IS RIGHT FOR ASKING YOU TO.


When he gets angry that I won't just unflinchingly listen to him, he angrily declares that Cerberus and Humanity are the same thing, and that he want human dominance.  Not cooperation, not unity, but dominance.

*** THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH DOMINANCE

[Lotion Soronarr]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...


No, it isn't just his confidence. There's the resources he's invested in your survival, like EDI. Regardless, you are expendable. Learn to accept this truth.

Actually, Shepard kind of isn't. TIM tried to get the Reaper IFF the easy way, that didn't work. He never could have recruited all those specialists without Shepard because his organization lacks the political and racial diversity and acceptance to convince them to work toward the same end. Politcally and symbolically Shepard kind of isn't expendable.

That's nothing more than Bio pumping up the players ego with BS.

Sheap is expenable. His influence is inflated far beyond reaonal proprtions.


And ther's billion of poeple in the galaxy. There's no shortage of other specialists that could take the place of those that wouldn't join.

Think about it; who else in the entire galaxy that we know of could have executed the mission in ME2? An army? A fleet? What would it have taken to unite Mordin, Jack, Garrus, and all of those other characters if TIM didn't have Shepard?

Or a different team made of capable people.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 23 février 2012 - 08:38 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
When did TIM ever lie about Horizon?

He implied the Collectors were targeting people close to Shepard.  He conveniently forgot to mention that he was the reason that person was there in the first place, and that he was trying to bait the Collectors into attacking.

And? Shepard never asked for details.
That was all part of TIMs plan. A brilliant plan to get the Colelctors into the open - a plan that worked.

RioHotaru wrote...
Ah-ha.  And there it is.  There, right THERE, is the entire crux of the Paragon's argument againt TIM.  Likely the most damning thing against him, and the reason Paragons have such strong support among the fanbase:

Saphra Deden wrote...
 Regardless, you areexpendable. Learn to accept this truth. 

If TIM thinks of me as expendable, then obvious he has no trust or faith in my ability to succeed.  As you put it, I am a resource, a pawn.  His confidence is solely related to the resources he has invested, but he won't care if failure results, because I am expendable.

Treating someone with whom you are working with towards a mutually beneficial goal as expendable, is anti-thetical to a cooperative venture or alliance.  In fact, such conditions mean I have NO incentive to assist him beyond what is ABSOLUTELY necessary to achieve the mission.

What a load of crap. Shepard is a soldier. In a mission to defend the galaxy agaisnt the reapers, everyone is expendable.

Either oyu (or your Sheaprd) suffer from a extreeme case of inflated ego and self-importance.

Shepard is supposed to be a soldier. He should be no stranger to the notion fo being expendable.
And he does have trust in Shepsabiltiy to suceeed, otherwise he wouldnt' have invested so much in him.

And since the mission was "Stop and Destroy the Collectors," well...I do just that.  Why in the world should I have any faith or belief in his words when he appeals to me to give him the base, when it's clear that I mean nothing to him.  The entire operation is about saving humanity from the Reapers, and such an operation cannot be founded on such misgivings.

Exactly. And the life of a single individual is meaningless in comparison.

[Corvus Metus]

I'm disappointed that my canon Shepard couldn't tell Cerberus to **** off at the start of the game and hijack the Normandy SR2. While he's a Renegade, its a little hard to forgive a group that let his unit die at the talons of a Thresher Maw just to see how its acid would effect a human body. It's also hard to forget that colony where every last person was turned to a Husk because of their experiments.

[CerberusSoldier]

I support Cerberus and its ideas despite Bioware kissing the butts of the anti Cerberus droids who cried about it in 2

[Gruzmog]

double post

Modifié par Gruzmog, 23 février 2012 - 09:52 .

[Sajuro]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Throwing away a base full of Reaper information when you have absolutely no knowledge of how you are going to beat them (and the only reason why you've gotten this far is because you have studied Reaper tech (see IFF, EDI, Thanic cannon etc)), on the grounds that "it indoctrinates people" despite their being no evidence that the base itself indoctrinates people is ****ing insane.

This. A thousand times this.

Sucks though that all of the schematics and information in the Collector Base's systems were probably destroyed by that fireball that happened in both endings.

[Gruzmog]

This is a discussion without end. But as my first shep char is basicly me instead of real roleplay. I decided to destroy the base after staring at the screen for about 2 minutes. Yes the tech could be usefull, but with the all the projects from Cerberus I had seen going to hell before that and the utter lack of respect for life I could not trust TIM with it. You always knew you were a means to an end and this was too big a risk to trust him with.

Face it Cerberus has a tendency to screw up the really big project ans since they failed to even replicate a single collecter particle beam I was not gonna take that chance. Bump you're head against a wall and then try to ram you're head trough the wall seems to be the Cerberus way when it comes to research in remote bases.

[stysiaq]

its just roleplaying. I had an evil playthroughs of KotORs, BGs and so on. That doesn't make me an evil person.

Cerberus was entirely evil in ME1, ME2 made it a bit ambigous, but unfortunately the comic books and other pre ME3 materials put it again on some "super evil organisation" shelf.

[Druscylla]

What? Thought this was a spoiler free forum.

[staindgrey]

Many rational, moral people support churches that spout hate against other groups, and in some cases do horrible things behind closed doors.

Being "moral and rational" means nothing if one isn't given all the information. What you personally see as rational, another person from another perspective would see it as completely inane.

[Ziggeh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Which refers to dependancy on mass relays... AND NOTHING ELSE.
So no, studying hte ebst of hteir tech - the tech tehy want to keep away from us - is not the enemy plan.

Sovereign tells us that our civilisations are based upon the technology of the mass relays, that it keeps us upon predictable, linear lines of technological progression.

So it's not simply a case of transport and communication reliance, and he doesn't elaborate on the extent of the effect. At best we are easier to counter, at worse to manipulate.

As we have an example in the IFF that the rest of their tech is actively built with countermeasures (that are beyond our comprehension), it becomes a gamble between being further along a predictable path and incorporating tech that is actively detrimental.

Maybe you've got to take a few gambles when you're trying to prevent galactic extinction, but I think for the first time in maybe millions of years there's an opportunity to develop in unique ways outside the boundries imposed by the Reapers and that this is quite likely the greatest threat they could face.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 23 février 2012 - 10:59 .

[Ziggeh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

People are bastards. So that would make them space bastards.
Politics is dirty buisness.
Individuals are nice, governments aren't.
If you don't take care of your own, no one else is going to do it for you.
Hence why being pro-human is rational. The universe is not a happy-sunshine-friendship place.

Again, attempting to divine the nature of alien beings from local examples is flawed and simplistic. 

That's also a hugely reductive view of humanity. We can be vicious and we can be kind, what we can't be is described accurately with sweeping generalisations.

Quite aside from that, your argument is that it makes sense to be pro human because we're all a bunch of dicks.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 23 février 2012 - 11:16 .

[LTiberious]

Dasher1010 wrote...

Cerberus is an organization filled with anti-alien extremiests. The fact that they refer to themselves as "pro-human" instead of anti-alien and specifically target the Quarians who are intentionally modeled to be Jews in space rams home that they're futuristic Neo-****s. They're now working for the reapers in an attempt to get them to destroy everyone else besides humans. What is seriously the reason why people on here are still Cerberus fanboys?

The problem with this thread is that rationality varies from person to person. 

For instance a thought "My race>Other races" usually gets met by torches and pitchforks. While it is an absolutely rational and normal thing.


So, its pretty much pointless to say something. 

[Ziggeh]

LTiberious wrote...

For instance a thought "My race>Other races" usually gets met by torches and pitchforks. While it is an absolutely rational and normal thing.

Normal certainly, but the rationality of that statement depends on the context. If you are in direct competition, ifor example you're a tribe struggling to feed yourself, very much so. If you're living in the a developed culture were race is an almost articifical distinction, less so.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 23 février 2012 - 11:27 .

[LTiberious]

Ziggeh wrote...

LTiberious wrote...

For instance a thought "My race>Other races" usually gets met by torches and pitchforks. While it is an absolutely rational and normal thing.

Normal certainly, but the rationality of that statement depends on the context. If you are in direct competition, ifor example you're a tribe struggling to feed yourself, very much so. If you're living in the a developed culture were race is an almost articifical distinction, less so.

Aaand yes, and no.

We all live in ratial competition, even now Dont get my started on it