619 réponses à ce sujet

[Nordicus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
I'll all for being open-minded.

But first TIM lies about Horizon, and is generally vague and misleading about the reasons for going there.

*** AND HIS PLAN WORKS PERFECTLY.

Hold on, I need to check if my car is working. Let me speed up to 100 miles per hour and crash into the nearest truck to see that it runs properly. Sure, there'll be bodies, car wrecks and closed streets, but that just means the plan works perfectly!

[Ziggeh]

LTiberious wrote...

Aaand yes, and no.

We all live in ratial competition, even now Dont get my started on it

Almost certainly best not to go there. But that's bollocks.

edit: I can say bollocks but not ****? That's a pretty bizarre filter the server is rocking.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 23 février 2012 - 11:50 .

[hawat333]

Dasher1010 wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Oh, this thread is going to turn out well.

They killed an Alliance admerial, hired mercenaries to steal money from a hospital, attacked the Quarian Flotilla, turned a human colony into husks, etc. They're kind of evil, just saying.

And that's where you are wrong, my good man.
They have an agenda, and they are willing to follow it through by any means. This isn't about good or evil. There is no good and evil or right and wrong in the grand scale of things - those are just personal perceptions. They are a ruthless group, they follow a goal by means we don't find ethical, so we label them evil. That doesn't make them evil. There are good people working for Cerberus, as there are good people working for governments too, and mostly they don't even know it their work is actually supporting the infrastructure of a hidden torture-interrogation facility.
Cerberus is an orgazinaztion, not a person. Therefore it cannot be evil

At least if we aren't talking about comics, but I just realized that since ME2 we do. So indeed, Cerberus is evil.

[OdanUrr]

Easily, it's ran by Martin Sheen.

[Adanu]

Nordicus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
I'll all for being open-minded.

But first TIM lies about Horizon, and is generally vague and misleading about the reasons for going there.

*** AND HIS PLAN WORKS PERFECTLY.

Hold on, I need to check if my car is working. Let me speed up to 100 miles per hour and crash into the nearest truck to see that it runs properly. Sure, there'll be bodies, car wrecks and closed streets, but that just means the plan works perfectly!

Not a good comparison.

[Zkyire]

Ziggeh wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

People are bastards. So that would make them space bastards.
Politics is dirty buisness.
Individuals are nice, governments aren't.
If you don't take care of your own, no one else is going to do it for you.
Hence why being pro-human is rational. The universe is not a happy-sunshine-friendship place.

Again, attempting to divine the nature of alien beings from local examples is flawed and simplistic. 

That's also a hugely reductive view of humanity. We can be vicious and we can be kind, what we can't be is described accurately with sweeping generalisations.

Quite aside from that, your argument is that it makes sense to be pro human because we're all a bunch of dicks.

Look what the Council did to the Quarians.

And the Krogan.

Those aliens have shown repeatedly that they are willing to let an entire species be exterminated, or commit genocide themselves if it means saving their own hides.

The Alliance should expect (and prepare) to be treated no differently if the day should ever come.

Being reliant on aliens is a bad thing.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Shepard is not the only great leader out there.

Just the only one who's both 100% dedicated to ending the Reaper menace, 100% convinced that it's a valid threat, and 100% proven to have what it takes to thwart it, or at least insofar as "what it has taken thus far," and then there's the symbolic value Commander Shepard has as the first human Spectre and the hero who enabled the victory against Sovereign, which at the least constitutes a massive increase in respect points, which is a major boon to any leader.

So he may not be the only great leader out there, but he is THE great leader, at least in this instance. He has the know-how, skill, conviction, and recognizability to do the job and convince/inspire others to help him do it, which is all important when it comes to something like ME2's suicide mission, and I imagine would be even more important when it comes to convincing people to aid an organization as questionable as Cerberus. I doubt half of the Normandy SR-2 crew would have been inclined to jump on-board without Shepard's "mascot factor" to convince them of it. (The Don-and-Gabby duo in particular only joined up to support Commander Shepard and "hit the Collectors right in the daddybags," as it were.

There is the simple matter of shock value: everyone, friend and enemy alike, would be gobsmacked by the simple fact that Shepard was once apparently dead and now is suddenly alive again two years later, which adds to respect and intimidation and may even serve to make some who previously hated Cerberus to question their previous preconception of them. And even more so, this adds to the respect level Shepard commands of his squad, since there's that element of, as Garrus put it, "The Collectors killed him once and only managed to ****** him off."

It's a lot of relatively little stuff that all adds up to make it a worthwhile package, really. And I think the Illusive Man simply had enough resources at the time to make it worth doing. Mind you, I get the feeling he was factoring the acquisition of some major Collector tech into the deal, hence his complaint that Shepard cost him more than time and money if Shep refuses to play ball in the end.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 23 février 2012 - 12:44 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Which refers to dependancy on mass relays... AND NOTHING ELSE.
So no, studying hte ebst of hteir tech - the tech tehy want to keep away from us - is not the enemy plan.

Sovereign tells us that our civilisations are based upon the technology of the mass relays, that it keeps us upon predictable, linear lines of technological progression.

So it's not simply a case of transport and communication reliance, and he doesn't elaborate on the extent of the effect. At best we are easier to counter, at worse to manipulate.

Yes it is. You dont' even look at what youself wrote.

That is how they destroy calactic civilization. Wihotu their own means of FTL travel, once the reapers shut down the realays, the races of the galaxy are lost - they cannot organize or manouvre.

As we have an example in the IFF that the rest of their tech is actively built with countermeasures (that are beyond our comprehension), it becomes a gamble between being further along a predictable path and incorporating tech that is actively detrimental.

And why are there countrameasures? Because they dont' want you to have it!
They WANT us to have MAss relays. Tehy WANT us to have the Citadel.
They DON'T wan us to have the IFF or hte Collector Base. Their best tech is there. The things they were keeping for themselves.

[Gruzmog]

Shepard is not the only great leader out there. He's not essential at all to the plot of ME2. (which is a problem with the game's plot/design)

I can follow you're arguments, although it's not my opinion, but I think on this one you  are jumping the gun before you have all the info.

Yes Shepard was not the only choise but he was a good one: His reputation at the battle of the citadel gives him the credit needed to convince people and he has show he is capable of leading these kind of missions.

That alone would not warrant a billion credit investment into bringing him back alive (one of the reasons why paragon shepards might distrust Cerberus, its all wel and great you brought me back, but it can't be the entire reason). But the way Harbringer responds to Sheppard and the things he is saying make Shep special in another way. We just never get to know why and that it something that better be explained in ME3.

Is it still the visions? something in the cipher, something totally different, we don't know. But TIM must know or atleast have a partial idea otherwise there would be no point in bringing Shep back.

Ofcourse this is me believing the story will be solid in the end. . I might be dissapointed.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

People are bastards. So that would make them space bastards.
Politics is dirty buisness.
Individuals are nice, governments aren't.
If you don't take care of your own, no one else is going to do it for you.
Hence why being pro-human is rational. The universe is not a happy-sunshine-friendship place.

Again, attempting to divine the nature of alien beings from local examples is flawed and simplistic. 

That's also a hugely reductive view of humanity. We can be vicious and we can be kind, what we can't be is described accurately with sweeping generalisations.

Quite aside from that, your argument is that it makes sense to be pro human because we're all a bunch of dicks.

It is the nature of the universe.
Survival of the fittest
Competition is alive and well and always will be.

If you truly belive an alien government will palce mroe value on umantiy and it's needs than that of it's own people (to whom it answers), then you live in a seriously distorted bubble.

[Phaedon]

wildannie wrote...

A rational moral person cannot support cerberus, they can however roleplay an irrational amoral shepard who does.

@Jedi Sentinel Arian... Cerberus does not pursue the greater good.

Here, here.

Why does everyone link immoral factions to utilitarianism and 'fighting for greater goods'. Is it a pathological need to make them more enjoyable or fulfill the Hollywood cliche?

Never did Cerberus claim to fight for the greater good.
Always has Cerberus claimed to fight for humanity and humanity's alone, good.
Cerberus is amoral and proud of it.
Cerberus is also stupid enough to try to @#$% the entire galaxy by not allowing alliances between aliens.

The greater good (which doesn't exist) also includes the aliens. Cerberus is not fighting for them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nordicus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
I'll all for being open-minded.

But first TIM lies about Horizon, and is generally vague and misleading about the reasons for going there.

*** AND HIS PLAN WORKS PERFECTLY.

Hold on, I need to check if my car is working. Let me speed up to 100 miles per hour and crash into the nearest truck to see that it runs properly. Sure, there'll be bodies, car wrecks and closed streets, but that just means the plan works perfectly!

Oh? You mean he didn't draw out the Collectors and stop them from abducting the entire colony?

Or do oyu forget the entie point - that Collectors were striking colonies unpososed.
Without that trap they would have hit another colony and taken everyone. Then anotehr. Then another. And Shep would have no clue where and when they would strike. The colonies would not stand a chance.

[LTiberious]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nordicus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
I'll all for being open-minded.

But first TIM lies about Horizon, and is generally vague and misleading about the reasons for going there.

*** AND HIS PLAN WORKS PERFECTLY.

Hold on, I need to check if my car is working. Let me speed up to 100 miles per hour and crash into the nearest truck to see that it runs properly. Sure, there'll be bodies, car wrecks and closed streets, but that just means the plan works perfectly!

Oh? You mean he didn't draw out the Collectors and stop them from abducting the entire colony?

Or do oyu forget the entie point - that Collectors were striking colonies unpososed.
Without that trap they would have hit another colony and taken everyone. Then anotehr. Then another. And Shep would have no clue where and when they would strike. The colonies would not stand a chance.

When you are at war, prepare to make sacrifices.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Shepard is not the only great leader out there.

Just the only one who's both 100% dedicated to ending the Reaper menace, 100% convinced that it's a valid threat, and 100% proven to have what it takes to thwart it, or at least insofar as "what it has taken thus far," and then there's the symbolic value Commander Shepard has as the first human Spectre and the hero who enabled the victory against Sovereign, which at the least constitutes a massive increase in respect points, which is a major boon to any leader.

Shepard could easily be replaced. His influnce is unrealistic and inflated, as is his "charisma".
Exactly what did Shepard (adn his team) do that another commadner with another team couldn't?

What - you think Zaeed is hte onyl Mercenary? That Jack is the only good biotic?
Heck, for what it spent on shep + Normandy Mk2 ,Cerberus could have sent 3 NormandyMK1's with 3 teams of elite operatives.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Gruzmog wrote...

Is it still the visions? something in the cipher, something totally different, we don't know. But TIM must know or atleast have a partial idea otherwise there would be no point in bringing Shep back.

Cool factor and bad writing.
The whole Lazarus projest was simply awfully handeled.

[Gruzmog]

It is the nature of the universe.
Survival of the fittest
Competition is alive and well and always will be.

If you truly belive an alien government will palce mroe value on umantiy and it's needs than that of it's own people (to whom it answers), then you live in a seriously distorted bubble.

That is why there is not one alien government but a council looking out for the bigger picture then a one species agenda. On the assumption that there are alien I think thats really the only way to go if you don't want to end in genocide eventually. (Which is exactly the original cerberus manifesto btw).

I believe such a council were humans are a part off it and not a leader can exist. This is probably the point were you call me a dreamer and I you a cynic and the discussion end with a gap that will not close

The whole long term point of life seems for me eventuelly harness the best aspects of competiton without the bad points.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Shepard could easily be replaced.

Could he really? I wonder why it is that Nihlus was so interested in Shep's talents if commanding officers of his/her calibre are so easy to come by, then.

[Gruzmog]

Cerberus could have sent 3 NormandyMK1's with 3 teams of elite operatives.

Good luck finding more IFF's for all those ships. The whole layout of the omega four relay does make this the best choise in the end. Although there was no way of knowing that beforehand.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Phaedon wrote...

wildannie wrote...

A rational moral person cannot support cerberus, they can however roleplay an irrational amoral shepard who does.

@Jedi Sentinel Arian... Cerberus does not pursue the greater good.

Here, here.

Why does everyone link immoral factions to utilitarianism and 'fighting for greater goods'. Is it a pathological need to make them more enjoyable or fulfill the Hollywood cliche?

Never did Cerberus claim to fight for the greater good.
Always has Cerberus claimed to fight for humanity and humanity's alone, good.
Cerberus is amoral and proud of it.
Cerberus is also stupid enough to try to @#$% the entire galaxy by not allowing alliances between aliens.

The greater good (which doesn't exist) also includes the aliens. Cerberus is not fighting for them.

And? That is not bad.
The alien races have their own organizations to fight for them. They don't need Cerberus.
And why should Cerberus fight for them? For the "greater good"?

Sicne when is Cerberus agaisnt alliances? You're not making sense.

[Ziggeh]

Zkyire wrote...
Look what the Council did to the Quarians.

And the Krogan.

Those aliens have shown repeatedly that they are willing to let an entire species be exterminated, or commit genocide themselves if it means saving their own hides.

The Alliance should expect (and prepare) to be treated no differently if the day should ever come.

Being reliant on aliens is a bad thing.

Being reliant on fictional aliens that are extensions of seperate human stereotypes is almost certainly a bad thing.

But not what I'm talking about.

[Phaedon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

wildannie wrote...

A rational moral person cannot support cerberus, they can however roleplay an irrational amoral shepard who does.

@Jedi Sentinel Arian... Cerberus does not pursue the greater good.

Here, here.

Why does everyone link immoral factions to utilitarianism and 'fighting for greater goods'. Is it a pathological need to make them more enjoyable or fulfill the Hollywood cliche?

Never did Cerberus claim to fight for the greater good.
Always has Cerberus claimed to fight for humanity and humanity's alone, good.
Cerberus is amoral and proud of it.
Cerberus is also stupid enough to try to @#$% the entire galaxy by not allowing alliances between aliens.

The greater good (which doesn't exist) also includes the aliens. Cerberus is not fighting for them.

And? That is not bad.
The alien races have their own organizations to fight for them. They don't need Cerberus.
And why should Cerberus fight for them? For the "greater good"?

Sicne when is Cerberus agaisnt alliances? You're not making sense.

It amazes me that the fact that I am pointing out that Cerberus has never fought for the greater good, and never will, and asking why people feel the need to think that Cerberus does so, just passes over your head. The entire point of the post. No wait, it doesn't just pass over your head, you are asking me why they should fight for the "greater good", which I have just demonestrated to have never been Cerberus' goal.

These forums just wouldn't be the same without you.

Carry on, mister.

Modifié par Phaedon, 23 février 2012 - 01:14 .