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[Lotion Soronarr]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Shepard could easily be replaced.

Could he really? I wonder why it is that Nihlus was so interested in Shep's talents if commanding officers of his/her calibre are so easy to come by, then.

Yes, he could. Because Shep really didn't do much commanding, now did he?

And secondly, because while Shep might be "the best", that doesn't mean the the rest are garbage.
and if Shep can't be replaced by one man, maybe he can by two..or three.

I'd rather take 3 commandos than 1 Shepard. Because that's 3 guns, 3 pairs of eyes and they can be at 3 places at once and shoot 3 different people at once.

[Ziggeh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes it is. You dont' even look at what youself wrote.

That is how they destroy calactic civilization. Wihotu their own means of FTL travel, once the reapers shut down the realays, the races of the galaxy are lost - they cannot organize or manouvre.

 
You're entirely ignoring the things we're told in the game. He literally says they've controlled technological innovation. 

And why are there countrameasures? Because they dont' want you to have it!
They WANT us to have MAss relays. Tehy WANT us to have the Citadel.
They DON'T wan us to have the IFF or hte Collector Base. Their best tech is there. The things they were keeping for themselves.

Right, it' not an identical situation, but it's still one they control. They're aware that it's available: I think we can reasonably say they've made steps to ensure that using it causes problems. We just don't know the extent.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Gruzmog wrote...
That is why there is not one alien government but a council looking out for the bigger picture then a one species agenda. On the assumption that there are alien I think thats really the only way to go if you don't want to end in genocide eventually. (Which is exactly the original cerberus manifesto btw).

Because the Council will be perfectly fair adn everyone in the council will be an equal?
Yeah right.

Doesn't work for EU, won't work for the Council either (and it doesn't)

The whole long term point of life seems for me eventuelly harness the best aspects of competiton without the bad points.

Now that is a nice dream....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Phaedon wrote...
It amazes me that the fact that I am pointing out that Cerberus has never fought for the greater good, and never will, and asking why people feel the need to think that Cerberus does so, just passes over your head. The entire point of the post. No wait, it doesn't just pass over your head, you are asking me why they should fight for the "greater good", which I have just demonestrated to have never been Cerberus' goal.

These forums just wouldn't be the same without you.

Carry on, mister.

And you are missing my point.


Who's "greater good"? You are implying Cerberus MUST work for the good of everyone and anyone - and that ANYTHING else is not good.
Which is a load of BS.

Cerberus works for humanities good. That isn't an evil goal.

In essense, you have built a useless strawman.

[Ziggeh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It is the nature of the universe.
Survival of the fittest
Competition is alive and well and always will be.

 
This complete misunderstanding of the nature of evolution is common. "Fittest" idoes not mean strongest, most violent or most powerful. It means fitting into the given environment.

Why haven't we killed each other? By your logic it's a foregone conclusion. There are nukes everywhere, it'd be easy, but we recognise that we benefit far from cooperation because we are not animals driven purely by instinct and you cannot apply simplistic motives to an entire society.

Lotion Soronnar wrote... 
If you truly belive an alien government will palce mroe value on umantiy and it's needs than that of it's own people (to whom it answers), then you live in a seriously distorted bubble.

Why would placing more value upon their own society automatically mean conflict? Why would it answer to it's own people? Are we sure they will have people? What if it's a hive mind?

You're making assumptions about complexity based on simplistic systems. It doesn't work.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes it is. You dont' even look at what youself wrote.

That is how they destroy calactic civilization. Wihotu their own means of FTL travel, once the reapers shut down the realays, the races of the galaxy are lost - they cannot organize or manouvre.

 
You're entirely ignoring the things we're told in the game. He literally says they've controlled technological innovation.

No, no he doesn't.

You are free to interpert it like that if you want, but that interpretation does't make sense at all.

If
the reapers provide us with an efficient FTL, is stands to reason we
would use it. There's no need to look for other FTL methods.
But the rest of technology is far less predictable.

And why are there countrameasures? Because they dont' want you to have it!
They WANT us to have MAss relays. Tehy WANT us to have the Citadel.
They DON'T wan us to have the IFF or hte Collector Base. Their best tech is there. The things they were keeping for themselves.

Right, it' not an identical situation, but it's still one they control. They're aware that it's available: I think we can reasonably say they've made steps to ensure that using it causes problems. We just don't know the extent.

No, you cna't reasonably say that.

How can they take steps AFTER we took the technology?
They already took steps before to prevent us from taking it. Now that we have it there's no much they can do besides pick up the pace.

It's the very same tech they use. Tech can be understood. Hence we can also use it to our advantage.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Shepard Commanding: "We fight or we die ... That's the plan!" Shepard reminds me of Belisarius or Alaric the Goth!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It is the nature of the universe.
Survival of the fittest
Competition is alive and well and always will be.

 
This complete misunderstanding of the nature of evolution is common. "Fittest" idoes not mean strongest, most violent or most powerful. It means fitting into the given environment.

Why haven't we killed each other? By your logic it's a foregone conclusion. There are nukes everywhere, it'd be easy, but we recognise that we benefit far from cooperation because we are not animals driven purely by instinct and you cannot apply simplistic motives to an entire society.

No we don't nuke ourselves. but the countries hardly exist in perfect harmony, now do they?
Just because the US and Russia arne't nuking themselve,s doesn't mean they arne'tu sing other methods to gain an upper hand or backstab eachother.

Lotion Soronnar wrote... 
If you truly belive an alien government will palce mroe value on umantiy and it's needs than that of it's own people (to whom it answers), then you live in a seriously distorted bubble.

Why would placing more value upon their own society automatically mean conflict? Why would it answer to it's own people? Are we sure they will have people? What if it's a hive mind?

You're making assumptions about complexity based on simplistic systems. It doesn't work.

I didn't say it would mean conflict. Now you are the one making stupid assumptions.

Dominance doesn't imply conquering with military might.

And I'm making assumptions based on the realities of the universe.
Alien races, liek oyu describe, would end up being slaves or extinct.

[Nordicus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Oh? You mean he didn't draw out the Collectors and stop them from abducting the entire colony?

Or do oyu forget the entie point - that Collectors were striking colonies unpososed.
Without that trap they would have hit another colony and taken everyone. Then anotehr. Then another. And Shep would have no clue where and when they would strike. The colonies would not stand a chance.

You mean the Collectors that he drew out to a colony with population of over 600'000, to stop them about halfway and confirm "Oh so it IS only humans... I knew that already btw Shepard"

Then after Horizon, Collectors proceed as planned, just somewhere else. So does The Illusive Man too. Nothing was actually really accomplished in the end, just another metric ****ton of people liquified (body count 200'000). I'd think differently if TIM received any vital information in there, but no, nada, zilch

[Lukeskymac]

Adanu wrote...

Critical thinking is not a strong suite for the OP it seems. Alas, usually it isn't.

That's it? Just ad hominem the OP?

He's right. People who support Cerberus seem not to be rational...

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Greater good is to save the arse of humankind and enhance its place and influence in the galaxy.

In a long period of time, there will be a prosperous Galactic Civilization for humans and other races will be treated good enough and it won't be Racism ... It is Human-Nationalism.

[Goneaviking]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And why are there countrameasures? Because they dont' want you to have it!
They WANT us to have MAss relays. Tehy WANT us to have the Citadel.
They DON'T wan us to have the IFF or hte Collector Base. Their best tech is there. The things they were keeping for themselves.

I find it difficult to credit the notion that the reapers would give their organic slaves any technology that could foreseeably be used against them. They are supposed to be supergeniuses after all, and what supergenius couldn't foresee the possibility of losing control of their slaves?

The tech on CB is certainly more sophisticated than most of what the rest of the galaxy possesses, but that doesn't mean it's reapertech. There's just as much potential that it could be protheantech which is a known dead end given that it apparently failed to make a dent in the reaper population last time.

It seems to me that the races have a better shot at surviving by developing their own technology which they already understand than in rushing through the reverse engineering process to duplicate techno-goodies that they won't understand or be able to further develop (in the short term) which could in fact be a red herring anyway.

[Ziggeh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

You're entirely ignoring the things we're told in the game. He literally says they've controlled technological innovation.

No, no he doesn't.

You are free to interpert it like that if you want, but that interpretation does't make sense at all.

If the reapers provide us with an efficient FTL, is stands to reason we
would use it. There's no need to look for other FTL methods.
But the rest of technology is far less predictable.

 
Ahem, to quote:
"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire."

If he means physically, as granted it can be read, the paths, the actual locations, how is this in any way bringing their order to the chaos of organic life? He quite clearly means the state of progression, because that's what they're after. The come at a specific state of progression that they have determined. Their entire modus operandi is based on this premise. That you have apparently ignored. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote... 
No, you cna't reasonably say that.

How can they take steps AFTER we took the technology?

The derelict reaper is believed to have been disabled 37 million years ago. They incorporated into a tiny fraction of the technology a function that was able to cripple a ship in the present day. 

These are dudes who think long term. 
While the IFF wasn't chosen at random, the long dead reaper almost certainly didn't forsee it's specfic use, so they must have been prepared, well in advance for situations such as this: for their tech falling into others hands. It isn't even a small leap to suggest that similar measures are taken elsewhere.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 23 février 2012 - 01:52 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nordicus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Oh? You mean he didn't draw out the Collectors and stop them from abducting the entire colony?

Or do oyu forget the entie point - that Collectors were striking colonies unpososed.
Without that trap they would have hit another colony and taken everyone. Then anotehr. Then another. And Shep would have no clue where and when they would strike. The colonies would not stand a chance.

You mean the Collectors that he drew out to a colony with population of over 600'000, to stop them about halfway and confirm "Oh so it IS only humans... I knew that already btw Shepard"

Then after Horizon, Collectors proceed as planned, just somewhere else. So does The Illusive Man too. Nothing was actually really accomplished in the end, just another metric ****ton of people liquified (body count 200'000). I'd think differently if TIM received any vital information in there, but no, nada, zilch

So, the Collectors were driven off and half a colony was saved...and you consider that nothing?


What part of "they would have hit a colony ANYWAY" escapes you? TIMS plan SAVED people, revealed the Collectors AND we managed to damage them.

Do you want to know what would happen wihout TIM's plan?
They would hit another undefended colony and take everyone. And then the next. And Shepard would be flying around like a clueless moron, since he would have no idea where they would strike.

And a lot MORE poeple would end up liquified.
Godd job Sherlock.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Goneaviking wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And why are there countrameasures? Because they dont' want you to have it!
They WANT us to have MAss relays. Tehy WANT us to have the Citadel.
They DON'T wan us to have the IFF or hte Collector Base. Their best tech is there. The things they were keeping for themselves.

I find it difficult to credit the notion that the reapers would give their organic slaves any technology that could foreseeably be used against them. They are supposed to be supergeniuses after all, and what supergenius couldn't foresee the possibility of losing control of their slaves?

They have full control of the Collectors. They have as much to fear from them as you have from a vacuum cleaner rebelling agaisnt you.

And the Collectors were building a new reaper. What kind of tech goes into a reaper if not the best reaper tech?
Or do you think reapers guard their best tech so well, not even they use it?

It seems to me that the races have a better shot at surviving by developing their own technology which they already understand than in rushing through the reverse engineering process to duplicate techno-goodies that they won't understand or be able to further develop (in the short term) which could in fact be a red herring anyway.

Because we have a thousand years time before the reaper come?

[Nathan Redgrave]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Shepard could easily be replaced.

Could he really? I wonder why it is that Nihlus was so interested in Shep's talents if commanding officers of his/her calibre are so easy to come by, then.

Yes, he could. Because Shep really didn't do much commanding, now did he?

Well, ****ake my mushrooms, you sure showed me there. It was obviously all Captain Anderson, wasn't it, who led that squad through Feros, Virmire, Noveria, um... whatever planet Liara was on... and Ilos, wasn't it? Mind, there were almost always other people involved, but not just anyone could have gotten through those situations and come out as shiny and victorious as Shepard generally did. And keeping in mind, Saren is supposed to be one of the most elite Spectres out there, so besting him (whether by brute force or by brightly-colored "I win" dialogue options) certainly adds credence to the idea.

Well, the gameplay and presentation may not have done the best job of portraying that at times, but it's the general idea the game's running with. Apart from that, though, we don't know exactly how much "commanding" Shepard did prior to ME1's start, and in the case of each of your pre-service history options Shepard is given a particularly impressive achievement to his name, two of which (War Hero and Ruthless) involve being either a rallying point and exceptional fighter or a commanding officer with the grit and steel to get the dirty work done without coming out mentally scarred because of it.

And secondly, because while Shep might be "the best", that doesn't mean the the rest are garbage.
and if Shep can't be replaced by one man, maybe he can by two..or three.

Righty-o. Then you find those two or three exceptional individuals who also coincidentally know enough about the Reapers to be committed to the fight, and convince them somehow to work with Cerberus. Yeah, that's probably not happening. I'd also like to point out the quality over quantity rule: three semi-awesome commandos doesn't necessarily make up for one legitimately awesome one, depending on exactly in what ways he happens to be awesome.

I'd rather take 3 commandos than 1 Shepard. Because that's 3 guns, 3 pairs of eyes and they can be at 3 places at once and shoot 3 different people at once.

I believe that last is why the Illusive Man also spent time and resources tracking down all those best-of-the-best recruits for Shep to use. So he'd have those extra eyes and guns. T.I.M. was never under any illusions that Shepard by himself could get the job done, but Shepard with a particularly badass crew to back him up... now, that is a sight to behold.

[Goneaviking]

Lukeskymac wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Critical thinking is not a strong suite for the OP it seems. Alas, usually it isn't.

That's it? Just ad hominem the OP?

He's right. People who support Cerberus seem not to be rational...

I think the problem with Cerberus is that it's distinctly schizophrenic and can't decide for itself what it wants to be. That's why we have vastly different representations between games and their representatives in game and other media are so contradictory.

The organisations stated goals like protecting humanity's interests are so vaguely defined that they can be interpreted to mean virtually anything dependant on situation and perspective.

My understanding is that Cerberus supporters latch onto some aspect that they like and then proceed in rationalizing their actions to match the preferred interpretation.

[Extort]

 Are you mad at something from a game which some people like but you don't?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...
Ahem, to quote:
"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire."

If he means physically, as granted it can be read, the paths, the actual locations, how is this in any way bringing their order to the chaos of organic life? He quite clearly means the state of progression, because that's what they're after. The come at a specific state of progression that they have determined. Their entire modus operandi is based on this premise. That you have apparently ignored.

No, he doens't.

Your entire theory doesn't make sense since there's no way reapers could control technological development like that.

"The path they desire" is our dependancy on the mass relays.
Because quite clearly, we can hurt them with their "own" tech so why would they want us to develop along that path?

Lotion Soronnar wrote... 
No, you cna't reasonably say that.

How can they take steps AFTER we took the technology?

The derelict reaper is believed to have been disabled 37 million years ago. They incorporated into a tiny fraction of the technology a function that was able to cripple a ship in the present day. 

These are dudes who think long term. 
While the IFF wasn't chosen at random, the long dead reaper almost certainly didn't forsee it's specfic use, so they must have been prepared, well in advance for situations such as this: for their tech falling into others hands. It isn't even a small leap to suggest that similar measures are taken elsewhere.

And that's precisely why we want to study it. If they attempt to booby trap it, then it's something they want to keep away from us.
reaper tech has always been a great boon to whoever managed to study it. EDI, Thanix, IFF and the keepers - all things that mad out victory possible


While you are campaiging against reaper tech, you ignore that without studying it, the curretnly cycle would have aloready been lost.

[knightnblu]

That depends, a utilitarian like Bentham might say that it was for the greater good. However, I would think that the ends justifying any means philosophy of ethics is well past its prime, in my opinion.

[Lukeskymac]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nordicus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Oh? You mean he didn't draw out the Collectors and stop them from abducting the entire colony?

Or do oyu forget the entie point - that Collectors were striking colonies unpososed.
Without that trap they would have hit another colony and taken everyone. Then anotehr. Then another. And Shep would have no clue where and when they would strike. The colonies would not stand a chance.

You mean the Collectors that he drew out to a colony with population of over 600'000, to stop them about halfway and confirm "Oh so it IS only humans... I knew that already btw Shepard"

Then after Horizon, Collectors proceed as planned, just somewhere else. So does The Illusive Man too. Nothing was actually really accomplished in the end, just another metric ****ton of people liquified (body count 200'000). I'd think differently if TIM received any vital information in there, but no, nada, zilch

So, the Collectors were driven off and half a colony was saved...and you consider that nothing?


What part of "they would have hit a colony ANYWAY" escapes you? TIMS plan SAVED people, revealed the Collectors AND we managed to damage them.

Do you want to know what would happen wihout TIM's plan?
They would hit another undefended colony and take everyone. And then the next. And Shepard would be flying around like a clueless moron, since he would have no idea where they would strike.

And a lot MORE poeple would end up liquified.
Godd job Sherlock.

This now hardly matters because Cerberus' priorities are clearly effed up

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

knightnblu wrote...

That depends, a utilitarian like Bentham might say that it was for the greater good. However, I would think that the ends justifying any means philosophy of ethics is well past its prime, in my opinion.

I partially agree with J.S.Mill, but Bentham was such idiot animal-lover.

[Ziggeh]

 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...No we don't nuke ourselves. but the countries hardly exist in perfect harmony, now do they?

Not all of them. Many of them greatly benefit from interaction with little negative effect, and while countries aren't comparable to civilsations built from beings who may fundimentally differ from one another, even within this limited analogy the inevitable conclusion of all relationships is not hatred and distruction. 
Which is my entire point.

Lotion Soronnar wrote... And I'm making assumptions based on the realities of the universe.

What realities? Please describe the realities of the universe that inform the decisions of alien civilisations that likely differ from us in ways we can't fathom.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 23 février 2012 - 02:09 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes, he could. Because Shep really didn't do much commanding, now did he?

Well, ****ake my mushrooms, you sure showed me there. It was obviously all Captain Anderson, wasn't it, who led that squad through Feros, Virmire, Noveria, um... whatever planet Liara was on... and Ilos, wasn't it?

Oh yes..such grand and important decisions were made there...wait..what exactly did Shep command?
"shoot that guy"
I must prostrate myself before the tactical genius that is Shepard....

And secondly, because while Shep might be "the best", that doesn't mean the the rest are garbage.
and if Shep can't be replaced by one man, maybe he can by two..or three.

Righty-o. Then you find those two or three exceptional individuals who also coincidentally know enough about the Reapers to be committed to the fight, and convince them somehow to work with Cerberus. Yeah, that's probably not happening. I'd also like to point out the quality over quantity rule: three semi-awesome commandos doesn't necessarily make up for one legitimately awesome one, depending on exactly in what ways he happens to be awesome.

No problem. Ther'es plenty of people willing to work for Cerberus and/or against the Collectors.

Know enough about the repaers? Everything Shep knows can be easily summed up in 1 minutes. He doesnt' have any special anti-reaper knowledge.

Commited? No lack of that. Plenty of people who are commited to revenge on Collectors or protecting humanity (or their race) and tehri families.

Adn shepards awesomness is - as always -over inflated. I'd ALWAYS take 3 commandos over your "legitemately awesome one". ALWAYS. In the real world, they'd always wipe the floor with him.

I believe that last is why the Illusive Man also spent time and resources tracking down all those best-of-the-best recruits for Shep to use. So he'd have those extra eyes and guns. T.I.M. was never under any illusions that Shepard by himself could get the job done, but Shepard with a particularly badass crew to back him up... now, that is a sight to behold.

No, that's because of sucky writing and the "oceans 11 feel".
Not a single person in the entire crew is irreplacable. No one.